Re: 440 six pack idle help
[Re: Tomkcuda]
#2752152
03/15/20 02:08 PM
03/15/20 02:08 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,298 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,298
Bend,OR USA
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What list # are your carbs? I'll look them up in my Holley master parts catalog and give you he stock jetting for the center carb and the part number for the outboard mixture plates and hole stock hole sizes, hopefully. Me thinks someone may have mess with them before you got them On the power valve the vacuum rating shouldn't have any affect on the idle unless you have the idle speed screw adjusted up far enough to make the center carb idle on the transition circuit, you can check that by removing the center carb and flip it over after draining the gas out of it and see how far the throttle blades are opened in relation to the rectangular slot in the front center of the carb throttle plate if you can see any of the slot below the throttle plates it is to far open and idling on the transition circuit I check the power valves by removing them and then use my mouth and tongue to suck on them and make my tongue seal against the center hole, if the valve stays closed with my tongue on it is good, if it doesn't stay closed it is bad A ruptured power valve will make it idle rich all the time due to leaking fuel into the carb. I use a vacuum gauge to check the idle vacuum and install a power valve that is one to two inches lower in vacuum, if it idles above 8.0 inches I use the 6.5 rated valves If it idles at 5.0 inches in gear like my old pump gas stroker motor did I would use either a 3.5 or 2.5 I used both in it and it work the same, not so on the 4.5 Do you have a pin vise and a good small (.011 to .060) set of drill bits? If so use the drill bits to see what size the bleed holes are on your carbs, the center ones are the idle bleeds and outboard ones are the high speed bleeds Post them on here and I'll look up which size they where stock , if I can find them in my catalog I've owned, tuned and driven a bunch of stock 340 and 440 six pack cars with the stock carbs, they would idle great and drive okay with the stock jetting and so on. You can make those motors run a lot better by proper jetting and tuning Open the outboards idle mixture screws to 1/2 turn and the center to 2 full turns out from bottom and then use the center carb mixture screws to get it to run as lean as you can when warmed up and set the speed idle at or below 1000 RPM so the center throttle plates are not opening up to the transition circuits It is snowing here, hopefully it will not snow after tomorrow, we need the water but it is mid March Good luck on this, you can fix it
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 03/15/20 02:10 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 440 six pack idle help
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2752169
03/15/20 02:46 PM
03/15/20 02:46 PM
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Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 23 California
Tomkcuda
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 23
California
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What list # are your carbs? I'll look them up in my Holley master parts catalog and give you he stock jetting for the center carb and the part number for the outboard mixture plates and hole stock hole sizes, hopefully. Me thinks someone may have mess with them before you got them On the power valve the vacuum rating shouldn't have any affect on the idle unless you have the idle speed screw adjusted up far enough to make the center carb idle on the transition circuit, you can check that by removing the center carb and flip it over after draining the gas out of it and see how far the throttle blades are opened in relation to the rectangular slot in the front center of the carb throttle plate if you can see any of the slot below the throttle plates it is to far open and idling on the transition circuit I check the power valves by removing them and then use my mouth and tongue to suck on them and make my tongue seal against the center hole, if the valve stays closed with my tongue on it is good, if it doesn't stay closed it is bad A ruptured power valve will make it idle rich all the time due to leaking fuel into the carb. I use a vacuum gauge to check the idle vacuum and install a power valve that is one to two inches lower in vacuum, if it idles above 8.0 inches I use the 6.5 rated valves If it idles at 5.0 inches in gear like my old pump gas stroker motor did I would use either a 3.5 or 2.5 I used both in it and it work the same, not so on the 4.5 Do you have a pin vise and a good small (.011 to .060) set of drill bits? If so use the drill bits to see what size the bleed holes are on your carbs, the center ones are the idle bleeds and outboard ones are the high speed bleeds Post them on here and I'll look up which size they where stock , if I can find them in my catalog I've owned, tuned and driven a bunch of stock 340 and 440 six pack cars with the stock carbs, they would idle great and drive okay with the stock jetting and so on. You can make those motors run a lot better by proper jetting and tuning Open the outboards idle mixture screws to 1/2 turn and the center to 2 full turns out from bottom and then use the center carb mixture screws to get it to run as lean as you can when warmed up and set the speed idle at or below 1000 RPM so the center throttle plates are not opening up to the transition circuits It is snowing here, hopefully it will not snow after tomorrow, we need the water but it is mid March Good luck on this, you can fix it center carb is 4375 outer carbs, front 4382 and rear 4383. I dont have the listing numbers as hard to read. Far as the base plate is concerned front base plate has been messed with as it was redrilled with new inserts to fit the screws. It was stripped and had to be drilled out. The hole is bigger than rear carbs and needle sticks out much further. I figure this one is easier to adjust since it's in the front. New base plate have been tough to find.
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Re: 440 six pack idle help
[Re: NITROUSN]
#2752171
03/15/20 02:51 PM
03/15/20 02:51 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,536 God's Country Maryland
GODSCOUNTRY340
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,536
God's Country Maryland
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Your picture of the right side show the vacuum port for the rear carb booster is open. All three carbs need to have the vacuum ports connected through a T fitting. It looks like you have the center and front carb connected with a hose and nothing to the rear carb. They all three need to be connected together.
I love the smell of Deer guts in the morning, it smells like... VICTORY!
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Re: 440 six pack idle help
[Re: Tomkcuda]
#2752187
03/15/20 03:43 PM
03/15/20 03:43 PM
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Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 23 California
Tomkcuda
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 23
California
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Hi What list # are your carbs? I'll look them up in my Holley master parts catalog and give you he stock jetting for the center carb and the part number for the outboard mixture plates and hole stock hole sizes, hopefully. Me thinks someone may have mess with them before you got them On the power valve the vacuum rating shouldn't have any affect on the idle unless you have the idle speed screw adjusted up far enough to make the center carb idle on the transition circuit, you can check that by removing the center carb and flip it over after draining the gas out of it and see how far the throttle blades are opened in relation to the rectangular slot in the front center of the carb throttle plate if you can see any of the slot below the throttle plates it is to far open and idling on the transition circuit I check the power valves by removing them and then use my mouth and tongue to suck on them and make my tongue seal against the center hole, if the valve stays closed with my tongue on it is good, if it doesn't stay closed it is bad A ruptured power valve will make it idle rich all the time due to leaking fuel into the carb. I use a vacuum gauge to check the idle vacuum and install a power valve that is one to two inches lower in vacuum, if it idles above 8.0 inches I use the 6.5 rated valves If it idles at 5.0 inches in gear like my old pump gas stroker motor did I would use either a 3.5 or 2.5 I used both in it and it work the same, not so on the 4.5 Do you have a pin vise and a good small (.011 to .060) set of drill bits? If so use the drill bits to see what size the bleed holes are on your carbs, the center ones are the idle bleeds and outboard ones are the high speed bleeds Post them on here and I'll look up which size they where stock , if I can find them in my catalog I've owned, tuned and driven a bunch of stock 340 and 440 six pack cars with the stock carbs, they would idle great and drive okay with the stock jetting and so on. You can make those motors run a lot better by proper jetting and tuning Open the outboards idle mixture screws to 1/2 turn and the center to 2 full turns out from bottom and then use the center carb mixture screws to get it to run as lean as you can when warmed up and set the speed idle at or below 1000 RPM so the center throttle plates are not opening up to the transition circuits It is snowing here, hopefully it will not snow after tomorrow, we need the water but it is mid March Good luck on this, you can fix it center carb is 4375 outer carbs, front 4382 and rear 4383. I dont have the listing numbers as hard to read. Far as the base plate is concerned front base plate has been messed with as it was redrilled with new inserts to fit the screws. It was stripped and had to be drilled out. The hole is bigger than rear carbs and needle sticks out much further. I figure this one is easier to adjust since it's in the front. New base plate have been tough to find. center carb diameter is 1/16 air bleed hole, outer 3/64
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Re: 440 six pack idle help
[Re: GODSCOUNTRY340]
#2752190
03/15/20 03:48 PM
03/15/20 03:48 PM
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Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 23 California
Tomkcuda
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 23
California
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Your picture of the right side show the vacuum port for the rear carb booster is open. All three carbs need to have the vacuum ports connected through a T fitting. It looks like you have the center and front carb connected with a hose and nothing to the rear carb. They all three need to be connected together. they are all connected correctly. What you see is a vacuum hose that goes into the choke pull off disengaged so the flap stays closed.. I put a screw in it to stop it from air leak.
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Re: 440 six pack idle help
[Re: Tomkcuda]
#2752192
03/15/20 03:50 PM
03/15/20 03:50 PM
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Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 23 California
Tomkcuda
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 23
California
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Your picture of the right side show the vacuum port for the rear carb booster is open. All three carbs need to have the vacuum ports connected through a T fitting. It looks like you have the center and front carb connected with a hose and nothing to the rear carb. They all three need to be connected together. they are all connected correctly. What you see is a vacuum hose that goes into the choke pull off disengaged so the flap stays closed.. I put a screw in it to stop it from air leak. my bad.. I see what you mean but still no difference.
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Re: 440 six pack idle help
[Re: Tomkcuda]
#2752208
03/15/20 04:14 PM
03/15/20 04:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,908 Nebraska
4406bbl
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,908
Nebraska
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What list # are your carbs? I'll look them up in my Holley master parts catalog and give you he stock jetting for the center carb and the part number for the outboard mixture plates and hole stock hole sizes, hopefully. Me thinks someone may have mess with them before you got them On the power valve the vacuum rating shouldn't have any affect on the idle unless you have the idle speed screw adjusted up far enough to make the center carb idle on the transition circuit, you can check that by removing the center carb and flip it over after draining the gas out of it and see how far the throttle blades are opened in relation to the rectangular slot in the front center of the carb throttle plate if you can see any of the slot below the throttle plates it is to far open and idling on the transition circuit I check the power valves by removing them and then use my mouth and tongue to suck on them and make my tongue seal against the center hole, if the valve stays closed with my tongue on it is good, if it doesn't stay closed it is bad A ruptured power valve will make it idle rich all the time due to leaking fuel into the carb. I use a vacuum gauge to check the idle vacuum and install a power valve that is one to two inches lower in vacuum, if it idles above 8.0 inches I use the 6.5 rated valves If it idles at 5.0 inches in gear like my old pump gas stroker motor did I would use either a 3.5 or 2.5 I used both in it and it work the same, not so on the 4.5 Do you have a pin vise and a good small (.011 to .060) set of drill bits? If so use the drill bits to see what size the bleed holes are on your carbs, the center ones are the idle bleeds and outboard ones are the high speed bleeds Post them on here and I'll look up which size they where stock , if I can find them in my catalog I've owned, tuned and driven a bunch of stock 340 and 440 six pack cars with the stock carbs, they would idle great and drive okay with the stock jetting and so on. You can make those motors run a lot better by proper jetting and tuning Open the outboards idle mixture screws to 1/2 turn and the center to 2 full turns out from bottom and then use the center carb mixture screws to get it to run as lean as you can when warmed up and set the speed idle at or below 1000 RPM so the center throttle plates are not opening up to the transition circuits It is snowing here, hopefully it will not snow after tomorrow, we need the water but it is mid March Good luck on this, you can fix it center carb is 4375 outer carbs, front 4382 and rear 4383. I dont have the listing numbers as hard to read. Far as the base plate is concerned front base plate has been messed with as it was redrilled with new inserts to fit the screws. It was stripped and had to be drilled out. The hole is bigger than rear carbs and needle sticks out much further. I figure this one is easier to adjust since it's in the front. New base plate have been tough to find. If you mean the idle screws were drilled out it may be a problem, but as long as the engine dies when you turn the screw in all the way you should be able to get it to run. The idle screws in 6bbl baseplates are not the same as the regular metering block idle screws. Baseplate screws have longer thinner needles.
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Re: 440 six pack idle help
[Re: Tomkcuda]
#2752313
03/15/20 08:08 PM
03/15/20 08:08 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,298 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,298
Bend,OR USA
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The center carb. came with Holley #63 jets in it, the 4382 outboard carb should have a Holley part # 34r-6153-34 metering plate in it and it should have had a .052 fuel inlet size in the bottom of that metering plate, the other carb # 4383 should have had a r34-8153-35 plate number in it with a .071 fuel inlet size hole on the bottom of it. I have heard a lot of people on here say that drilling those holes out to.086 works good My set of original six pack 1970 carbs like #63 jets in the center carb and .096 air bleed jets in the one side and .092 size air bleeds in the other. Those plates had the original holes plug off and where drilled out and tap to use Holley screw in air bleeds. that set up worked real well Once I got the fuel system straighten out with the proper size pre fuel pump fuel filter size it didn't want any richer jetting than it had I did try richening up the out board carbs jet sizes by .004 and it slowed down, I didn't try leaning it down though All the stock six pack center carbs I worked on didn't like a lot more jet size in them, maybe one or two sizes up or down, no more than that though Take a look at your outboard carbs. metering plate numbers, both of them and post it on here to see if they are stock or been change like the center carb jets have been Make sure that the fuel feed holes(channels) for the power valve haven't been plug off also Let us know what you find
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 440 six pack idle help
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2752355
03/15/20 09:53 PM
03/15/20 09:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,908 Nebraska
4406bbl
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,908
Nebraska
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The center carb. came with Holley #63 jets in it, the 4382 outboard carb should have a Holley part # 34r-6153-34 metering plate in it and it should have had a .052 fuel inlet size in the bottom of that metering plate, the other carb # 4383 should have had a r34-8153-35 plate number in it with a .071 fuel inlet size hole on the bottom of it. I have heard a lot of people on here say that drilling those holes out to.086 works good My set of original six pack 1970 carbs like #63 jets in the center carb and .096 air bleed jets in the one side and .092 size air bleeds in the other. Those plates had the original holes plug off and where drilled out and tap to use Holley screw in air bleeds. that set up worked real well Once I got the fuel system straighten out with the proper size pre fuel pump fuel filter size it didn't want any richer jetting than it had I did try richening up the out board carbs jet sizes by .004 and it slowed down, I didn't try leaning it down though All the stock six pack center carbs I worked on didn't like a lot more jet size in them, maybe one or two sizes up or down, no more than that though Take a look at your outboard carbs. metering plate numbers, both of them and post it on here to see if they are stock or been change like the center carb jets have been Make sure that the fuel feed holes(channels) for the power valve haven't been plug off also Let us know what you find Ummm, I suggest before taking this advice you mesure your metering plate fuel restrictions, specs given here are wrong and are out of a holley book. Wrong for a 6bbl, correct for a 4bbl. I do not know why there is this discrepancy, but there are 2 types of 34-35 plates, you must measure. #63 jets are fine. Cab are you saying .092-.096 idle air bleeds on the center carb, sounds more like super stock end carb main jetting, my 3 sets are all .068 idle air, center carb, .055 on the ends.
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Re: 440 six pack idle help
[Re: 4406bbl]
#2752360
03/15/20 10:15 PM
03/15/20 10:15 PM
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Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 23 California
Tomkcuda
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 23
California
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To all, I just posted on you tube on this issue. One thing I did discover is that plugging the air bleed holes on the outer carb with wire actually evened out the idle. I took it for a quick drive though it does not stall, its definatley running rich and some loss of power. Far as the jet size, it's a 65 due to the size of the cam and is stroked out to 512. More and more I think it has to do with center carb not working properly. I should not have plug the outer bleed holes. I am trying to keep the original metering block but I might just change it to 134-203 replacement and see what it does. I am pretty sure the outboard carb metering plates are both 34. https://youtu.be/8X2MP8jzD3A
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Re: 440 six pack idle help
[Re: Tomkcuda]
#2752404
03/16/20 12:45 AM
03/16/20 12:45 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,908 Nebraska
4406bbl
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,908
Nebraska
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To all, I just posted on you tube on this issue. One thing I did discover is that plugging the air bleed holes on the outer carb with wire actually evened out the idle. I took it for a quick drive though it does not stall, its definatley running rich and some loss of power. Far as the jet size, it's a 65 due to the size of the cam and is stroked out to 512. More and more I think it has to do with center carb not working properly. I should not have plug the outer bleed holes. I am trying to keep the original metering block but I might just change it to 134-203 replacement and see what it does. I am pretty sure the outboard carb metering plates are both 34. https://youtu.be/8X2MP8jzD3A So you simply proved it is lean and needs more gas at idle. Now you say it is rich... well I hope so as you took half the air away from the emulsion tubes, and are drawing harder on the idle fuel feed restrictions in the end carbs, with the end carb idle screws at 1 full turn. It will be rich at 1 full turn. Until you measure the metering plate restrictions who knows what is in there. I suggest a holley carb manual by alex walordy so you understand how the idle works. I would say you need bigger idle fuel feed restrictions, made bigger .001 at a time. I am assuming the idle air restrictions are stock size. A metering block for the center carb that you can adjust would be good. I used a 600 or 650 double pumper plate on mine to get the drillable idle feeds. You adjust the fuel feeds .001 at a time until it idles with the center carb at 1 to 1-1/2 turns, ends at 1/2 max. Timing needs to be at least 25 on the crank and stable, not bouncing around. No magic here, the idle will take work, I am betting the center carb is open on the transition slots at idle, as a 512 needs more air than a 440, and I don't even want to get into fixing that.... but here goes. It would involve drilling throttle plates, not allowed on this board, most on here think any 6bbl with drilled plates has been modified, no it is factory. Bigger motor, bigger holes, .002-.005 at a time until it idles with the plates closed. Oh one more thing, that big hydraulic cam will not idle clean at 800 rpm like the big roller cams most guys use, so you guessed it, you need more air for that too, bigger holes. Now you know if you really want to fix it.
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Re: 440 six pack idle help
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2752458
03/16/20 09:36 AM
03/16/20 09:36 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,908 Nebraska
4406bbl
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,908
Nebraska
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Not idle air bleeds, my carbs had .092 and .096 fuel restrictor, IE Holley screw in air bleeds acting as the jets on the bottom of the stock metering plates with the original metering holes plug off Ok, you are right they do not like much more jet. I need to clean up my last post, no emulsion tubes in the outboard carbs, might call them emulsion wells. Its where the fuel and air become an emulsion in the metering plate to start to become a burnable mix at idle.
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Re: 440 six pack idle help
[Re: Tomkcuda]
#2752845
03/17/20 02:16 PM
03/17/20 02:16 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,298 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,298
Bend,OR USA
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I thought of something else you can check and reset if needed is the fuel, float level. Most Holley like and need the fuel to barely dribble out of the side hole when running at idle speed, if you look closely at your carbs you will notice that the outboard screws for checking the float level are higher than the center bowl is Don t set them in the middle of that hole, that is to high Let us know how your doing on fixing this issue, six packs rock when you get them right Which is not always easy
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 440 six pack idle help
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2752930
03/17/20 08:20 PM
03/17/20 08:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436 Blair County,PA
62maxwgn
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
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I thought of something else you can check and reset if needed is the fuel, float level. Most Holley like and need the fuel to barely dribble out of the side hole when running at idle speed, if you look closely at your carbs you will notice that the outboard screws for checking the float level are higher than the center bowl is Don t set them in the middle of that hole, that is to high Let us know how your doing on fixing this issue, six packs rock when you get them right Which is not always easy Cab,you got it backwards,the center is higher than the ends,better check your !
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Re: 440 six pack idle help
[Re: 62maxwgn]
#2752959
03/17/20 09:40 PM
03/17/20 09:40 PM
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Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 23 California
Tomkcuda
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 23
California
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I thought of something else you can check and reset if needed is the fuel, float level. Most Holley like and need the fuel to barely dribble out of the side hole when running at idle speed, if you look closely at your carbs you will notice that the outboard screws for checking the float level are higher than the center bowl is Don t set them in the middle of that hole, that is to high Let us know how your doing on fixing this issue, six packs rock when you get them right Which is not always easy Cab,you got it backwards,the center is higher than the ends,better check your ! I think I will try changing out the center metering block, new air/fuel mixture screws and gaskets. I still think it needs more fuel from center carb. I will post soon as the new metering block arrives. I appreciate all the advise as it seems alot of interest on the topic and outcome. I sure hope I find whats wrong and dont let anyone down. It would be great reference for someone else down the road.
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