Re: Pro Systems King Cobra 4150 carbs
[Re: Thumperdart]
#2846007
11/14/20 08:59 AM
11/14/20 08:59 AM
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Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 18 deltona, fl.
mike laws
member
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member
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 18
deltona, fl.
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I'm still working on getting to the track but it's pushed back farther every time I work on the POS but hopefully soon the 2 twins will be right after that for comparative street and track testing..... Sounds good. Keep me posted.
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Re: Pro Systems King Cobra 4150 carbs
[Re: mike laws]
#2846717
11/15/20 07:04 PM
11/15/20 07:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,139 Melbourne , Australia
LA360
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,139
Melbourne , Australia
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Mike, with the twin blade base plate, are the bore centers the same as 4150 stuff (same bore centers, just opened up to two slots) or something completely different?
Cheers Alan: There are 2 different sized baseplates. The 'smaller' version has the same footprint as a Holley 850. These carbs vary from 650 to 1230cfm, depending on main section/booster arrangement. These carbs will fit any 4150 or 4500 intake manifold. The 'larger' baseplate size is between the 850 and a 1050 Dominator with an opening of approx 4.375" square. These carbs vary from 1200-ish to 1620-ish, depending on main section/booster arrangement. These carbs will bolt onto any 4150 or 4500 intake manifold, however if used on a 4150 manifold, the opening will need to be enlarged. I make shear/anti reversion plates, along with various transition spacers. The twin blade stuff is something I've thought about making some prototypes for.
Alan Jones
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Re: Pro Systems King Cobra 4150 carbs
[Re: LA360]
#2846766
11/15/20 09:13 PM
11/15/20 09:13 PM
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Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 2 Winter Garden, FL, USA
TMCarbs
member
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member
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 2
Winter Garden, FL, USA
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Mike, with the twin blade base plate, are the bore centers the same as 4150 stuff (same bore centers, just opened up to two slots) or something completely different?
Cheers Alan: There are 2 different sized baseplates. The 'smaller' version has the same footprint as a Holley 850. These carbs vary from 650 to 1230cfm, depending on main section/booster arrangement. These carbs will fit any 4150 or 4500 intake manifold. The 'larger' baseplate size is between the 850 and a 1050 Dominator with an opening of approx 4.375" square. These carbs vary from 1200-ish to 1620-ish, depending on main section/booster arrangement. These carbs will bolt onto any 4150 or 4500 intake manifold, however if used on a 4150 manifold, the opening will need to be enlarged. I make shear/anti reversion plates, along with various transition spacers. The twin blade stuff is something I've thought about making some prototypes for. Would like to hear more on your ideas for spacer and shear plates!
Last edited by TMCarbs; 11/15/20 09:26 PM. Reason: Forgot to write something
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Re: Pro Systems King Cobra 4150 carbs
[Re: mike laws]
#2847005
11/16/20 12:51 PM
11/16/20 12:51 PM
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Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 566 Texas
RustyM
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 566
Texas
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Agreed Mike. My theory is : the faster i can get the engine up on clean AFR between pump shot and the boosters, the quicker the 60's and 330ft. When i see a really rich first gear, not cleaning up before 5500- 6500 , i feel im leaving money on the table with too "long" a shot, thus, my efforts to really tune the pump shot "to" the booster flow . I may find this to be an effort in futility but, im working to either be wrong or, correct. Data and time sheets will prove me foolish or not If you guys see an error in my thinking, please advise.
Last edited by RustyM; 11/16/20 12:58 PM.
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Re: Pro Systems King Cobra 4150 carbs
[Re: RustyM]
#2847097
11/16/20 03:45 PM
11/16/20 03:45 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,172 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,172
Bend,OR USA
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Last edited by Cab_Burge; 11/16/20 03:46 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Pro Systems King Cobra 4150 carbs
[Re: RustyM]
#2847521
11/17/20 12:26 PM
11/17/20 12:26 PM
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Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 18 deltona, fl.
mike laws
member
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member
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 18
deltona, fl.
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Agreed Mike. My theory is : the faster i can get the engine up on clean AFR between pump shot and the boosters, the quicker the 60's and 330ft. When i see a really rich first gear, not cleaning up before 5500- 6500 , i feel im leaving money on the table with too "long" a shot, thus, my efforts to really tune the pump shot "to" the booster flow . I may find this to be an effort in futility but, im working to either be wrong or, correct. Data and time sheets will prove me foolish or not If you guys see an error in my thinking, please advise. A few quick thoughts Rusty. A flat afr through the rpm range is not ideal. You want a richer condition at peak tq than peak hp. There's also a lot going on in low gear. G-forces cause inertia-effects in the entire fuel system that will cause a momentary fuel psi spike that will definitely contribute to a richer condition. It's good to have the regulator and fuel inlet mounted behind the carb to help this. Also, keep in mind that the engine will be closest to peak torque at the leave (especially foot-braking). Since peak tq has the highest fuel demand; a little rich here is helping more than you might think. Lastly; if you can program the timing curve, add a couple of degrees at the hit and ramp it out so that it's back to normal when the afr normally 'cleans up'. You'll be surprised at how much this helps.
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Re: Pro Systems King Cobra 4150 carbs
[Re: mike laws]
#2847556
11/17/20 12:57 PM
11/17/20 12:57 PM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317 State of confusion
Thumperdart
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317
State of confusion
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I've been setting carbs up to be safely rich at the hit and down low when the load is the greatest trying to move the vehicle then I set the curve to go LEANER up top and through the traps for starters then salt to taste and so far, most are way more consistent and faster but not all.......
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
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Re: Pro Systems King Cobra 4150 carbs
[Re: Thumperdart]
#2847605
11/17/20 01:48 PM
11/17/20 01:48 PM
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Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 18 deltona, fl.
mike laws
member
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member
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 18
deltona, fl.
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I've been setting carbs up to be safely rich at the hit and down low when the load is the greatest trying to move the vehicle then I set the curve to go LEANER up top and through the traps for starters then salt to taste and so far, most are way more consistent and faster but not all....... Perfect! You're making the engine more efficient by doing this.
Last edited by mike laws; 11/17/20 01:49 PM.
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Re: Pro Systems King Cobra 4150 carbs
[Re: mike laws]
#2847981
11/18/20 08:08 AM
11/18/20 08:08 AM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 287 PA
Harry's Taxi 2
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 287
PA
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Agreed Mike. My theory is : the faster i can get the engine up on clean AFR between pump shot and the boosters, the quicker the 60's and 330ft. When i see a really rich first gear, not cleaning up before 5500- 6500 , i feel im leaving money on the table with too "long" a shot, thus, my efforts to really tune the pump shot "to" the booster flow . I may find this to be an effort in futility but, im working to either be wrong or, correct. Data and time sheets will prove me foolish or not If you guys see an error in my thinking, please advise. A few quick thoughts Rusty. A flat afr through the rpm range is not ideal. You want a richer condition at peak tq than peak hp. There's also a lot going on in low gear. G-forces cause inertia-effects in the entire fuel system that will cause a momentary fuel psi spike that will definitely contribute to a richer condition. It's good to have the regulator and fuel inlet mounted behind the carb to help this. Also, keep in mind that the engine will be closest to peak torque at the leave (especially foot-braking). Since peak tq has the highest fuel demand; a little rich here is helping more than you might think. Lastly; if you can program the timing curve, add a couple of degrees at the hit and ramp it out so that it's back to normal when the afr normally 'cleans up'. You'll be surprised at how much this helps. How would you go about tweaking a flat fuel curve to a slightly rich early to leaner later.......Main air bleed or changes in the e-bleed area?
'86 Maple Grove KOS Mopar low qualifier......true street legal with no power adders.
NOS-used when losing since 1940.
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Re: Pro Systems King Cobra 4150 carbs
[Re: Harry's Taxi 2]
#2848104
11/18/20 12:47 PM
11/18/20 12:47 PM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317 State of confusion
Thumperdart
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317
State of confusion
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Usually pretty easy once you are within your max rpm/trap afr's by within a point then if it's rich up top bigger hi bleeds, lower float levels and even mixture screws balance that out. I have a NMCA HEMI super stocker that runs 2 1000 cfm billet 4150's and was at a race where the air got real good in the later part of the day and went from the desirable 12.9-13.1 to 13.7 and lost mph and et plus was in the lanes for the final race so I had him open up all 8 mixture screws and it was right back at 13.1 up top but he red lit and lost the race because it reacted quicker and cleaner. Emulsion placement and sizes is yet another way.......Who needs EFI when a wet manifold has been proven to make more power over and over again....
Last edited by Thumperdart; 11/18/20 06:55 PM.
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
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Re: Pro Systems King Cobra 4150 carbs
[Re: mike laws]
#2848151
11/18/20 01:52 PM
11/18/20 01:52 PM
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Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 566 Texas
RustyM
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 566
Texas
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Thanks Mike/ Dom : I appreciate the info. Would like to detail this is bit more though, if possible . If i'm still fat at, lets say , 5500 coming off the launch at 2500 and peak torque was 4400-4600, should i not want that fat area to have cleaned up pretty well by the 5500 so that 5500-6700 is up on the curve for the DA we are running in? I guess i'm trying to tune for every .001 I can pull out of it.
Looking at what you are both saying it would seem (remember, i'm dense) i would want to find that perfect fat curve for getting up on tq curve/hit converter and then clean up fast to achieve target AFR to get most out of first gear. I can usually see the pump shot curve on the graph , of course the higher the launch rpm, the less i see of the shot . Hmmm, now im wondering if a longer shot with smaller squirters might leave harder/clean up quicker above tq peak but keep us really happy on the hit .
Right now we don"t do "pogo stick" wheelies, car moves, pulls tires off/up in a nice 6-8 high in arch , sets them down smoothly on most tracks, we do have to change rear shocks as we sometimes lose compression on rears and spin a length out .
Anyway: I'm listening, paying attention.
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Re: Pro Systems King Cobra 4150 carbs
[Re: RustyM]
#2848155
11/18/20 02:02 PM
11/18/20 02:02 PM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317 State of confusion
Thumperdart
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317
State of confusion
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What do you call fatt......
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
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Re: Pro Systems King Cobra 4150 carbs
[Re: RustyM]
#2848270
11/18/20 05:43 PM
11/18/20 05:43 PM
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Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 18 deltona, fl.
mike laws
member
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member
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 18
deltona, fl.
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Thanks Mike/ Dom : I appreciate the info. Would like to detail this is bit more though, if possible . If i'm still fat at, lets say , 5500 coming off the launch at 2500 and peak torque was 4400-4600, should i not want that fat area to have cleaned up pretty well by the 5500 so that 5500-6700 is up on the curve for the DA we are running in? I guess i'm trying to tune for every .001 I can pull out of it.
Looking at what you are both saying it would seem (remember, i'm dense) i would want to find that perfect fat curve for getting up on tq curve/hit converter and then clean up fast to achieve target AFR to get most out of first gear. I can usually see the pump shot curve on the graph , of course the higher the launch rpm, the less i see of the shot . Hmmm, now im wondering if a longer shot with smaller squirters might leave harder/clean up quicker above tq peak but keep us really happy on the hit .
Right now we don"t do "pogo stick" wheelies, car moves, pulls tires off/up in a nice 6-8 high in arch , sets them down smoothly on most tracks, we do have to change rear shocks as we sometimes lose compression on rears and spin a length out .
Anyway: I'm listening, paying attention. Rusty: Could you post a screenshot/graph of one of your runs? That would help a lot...
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Re: Pro Systems King Cobra 4150 carbs
[Re: Harry's Taxi 2]
#2848274
11/18/20 05:48 PM
11/18/20 05:48 PM
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Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 18 deltona, fl.
mike laws
member
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member
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 18
deltona, fl.
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Agreed Mike. My theory is : the faster i can get the engine up on clean AFR between pump shot and the boosters, the quicker the 60's and 330ft. When i see a really rich first gear, not cleaning up before 5500- 6500 , i feel im leaving money on the table with too "long" a shot, thus, my efforts to really tune the pump shot "to" the booster flow . I may find this to be an effort in futility but, im working to either be wrong or, correct. Data and time sheets will prove me foolish or not If you guys see an error in my thinking, please advise. A few quick thoughts Rusty. A flat afr through the rpm range is not ideal. You want a richer condition at peak tq than peak hp. There's also a lot going on in low gear. G-forces cause inertia-effects in the entire fuel system that will cause a momentary fuel psi spike that will definitely contribute to a richer condition. It's good to have the regulator and fuel inlet mounted behind the carb to help this. Also, keep in mind that the engine will be closest to peak torque at the leave (especially foot-braking). Since peak tq has the highest fuel demand; a little rich here is helping more than you might think. Lastly; if you can program the timing curve, add a couple of degrees at the hit and ramp it out so that it's back to normal when the afr normally 'cleans up'. You'll be surprised at how much this helps. How would you go about tweaking a flat fuel curve to a slightly rich early to leaner later.......Main air bleed or changes in the e-bleed area? There are several ways to do this. Tell us about your combination... (Car/engine/power/e.t./mph/trans/carb/rpm range/fuel/dyno results if you have them/etc...)
Last edited by mike laws; 11/18/20 07:43 PM.
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