Re: Standard-port 493-512 builds?
[Re: AndyF]
#2718889
11/24/19 03:01 PM
11/24/19 03:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,487 SoCal
Brian Hafliger
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,487
SoCal
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I just finished a customers 493 low deck build...TF 240 heads, Weiand dual plane intake, 850 carb, 10.2:1, hyd. cam with around .580 lift and 240's @ ,050, on our dyno it made 596HP @ 5700rpm and 608TQ @ 4400rpm. Sounds roughly the same as what I'd expect on the dyno here. I've never used the Weiand dual plane intake, I assume a Performer RPM would've worked a little better but maybe the customer couldn't make it fit under the hood. Yeah we used if for hood clearance. Not a horrible choice, but not the best either. Still exceeded his power goal of 550HP minimum.
Brian Hafliger
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Re: Standard-port 493-512 builds?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2718891
11/24/19 03:14 PM
11/24/19 03:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,457 A collage of whims
topside
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,457
A collage of whims
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Interesting thread, as I'm contemplating a stock-appearing low-deck motor for a 4-speed '68 RR with 3.23s. Along the lines of 400 block, Stealths, Perf RPM (logos removed), AVS2, stock exhaust, pan, air cleaner, maybe cam specs like GY3's. Wondering what the "sweet spot" CI is for throttle response, street-range TQ, good vac signal for the carb...probably 470-505, ya think ? Maybe even use the #s 383, though I'd rather drive the car while the "fun motor" goes together...
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Re: Standard-port 493-512 builds?
[Re: Brian Hafliger]
#2718896
11/24/19 03:19 PM
11/24/19 03:19 PM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 622 ct
jkgtx
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 622
ct
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Put together last winter 505 440 source,indy sr heads home ported,std window,edelbrock intake 1050 dominater,comp cam 650,630 mechanical, put it in a rolling chassis 66 charger 3300 with me in it,4.30 gears,trans brake 3k launch,car ran best 10.03 normal weather 10.teens,car was dead on bracket car let me win points nodrama,i knew if went max wedge ports I would be chassis cert,
[b] [color:"red"] 67 GTX 440 twin turbo efi 10.72 128 3900lb 3.55
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Re: Standard-port 493-512 builds?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2718902
11/24/19 03:32 PM
11/24/19 03:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
OP
Taking time off to work on my car
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OP
Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Hypothetical scenario:
Take all the top end parts of a 680 HP / 600 torque 3.75-stroke combination with standard Victor heads.
Put them on a 500"-ish short block and keep the CR in pump gas territory... probably bump up the cam for the extra cubes.
What's the likely end result?
EDIT: I'm very happy with the my 3.75-stroke combination and it's a really good match for my car. I'm describing mine because it's a better example of what I was trying to ask than I think how most people understood my question. From what I’ve seen, when the heads are kinda “too small”....... adding cubes and lowering the CR really takes it’s toll on the upper rpm of the power curve. Even if the bigger motor makes considerably more tq, if it can’t carry it high enough....... you could end up not making much addition hp at all, and could also end up with a noticeably shorter usable power band. With that type of build, the overall car/motor/converter combo needs to really be able to exploit the added tq at the beginning of the power band. I fired up Pipemax 3.9.8 this afternoon for the first time in a couple of years to see what it indicated. I only tried a few long-stroke scenarios per my description above. It "thinks" there would be a significant power improvement, but also predicts a bigger cam won't make any additional HP and loses peak torque. Head CSA requirement calcs point to the Victors as being smaller than optimum for best combination of HP and torque, but OK with the emphasis on torque. Regardless, it's not looking like a great approach; no big surprise...
Last edited by BradH; 11/24/19 03:36 PM.
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Re: Standard-port 493-512 builds?
[Re: jkgtx]
#2718903
11/24/19 03:32 PM
11/24/19 03:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,531 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,531
So. Burlington, Vt.
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What CR in that SR headed 505?
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Standard-port 493-512 builds?
[Re: BradH]
#2718908
11/24/19 03:36 PM
11/24/19 03:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,531 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,531
So. Burlington, Vt.
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I tried a few long-stroke scenarios per my description above. It "thinks" there would be a significant power improvement, but also predicts a bigger cam won't make any additional HP and loses peak torque. Head CSA requirement calcs point to the Victors as being smaller than optimum for best combination of HP and torque, but not by as much as I would have expected. Obviously, my first question is........ when you modeled the current 3.75 stroke combo, how close is the result to reality? Then, how much more power is a “significant” improvement?
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Standard-port 493-512 builds?
[Re: BradH]
#2718915
11/24/19 03:58 PM
11/24/19 03:58 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,531 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,531
So. Burlington, Vt.
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Never say never........ but I’d be pretty surprised to see 745hp out of a 10.8:1 499 with std port Victors.
A very crude formula that’s based solely on flow shows a nearly 700rpm difference in peak between the 452 and 499, using 350cfm as the flow value. It also shows the 452 peaking way higher than it actually did. However....... it’s dead on with my old SR headed 451. But then....... after the head and cam swap, it’s way off. As with pretty much all that stuff...... sometimes it seems correct, other times not so much.
It’s not that I dont think that well ported std port victors are capable of making 750hp....... I just don’t know if I’d see that here on a 10.8cr 500” combo with a 265@.050 cam.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Standard-port 493-512 builds?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2718921
11/24/19 04:18 PM
11/24/19 04:18 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225 Charleston
sixpackgut
Drag Week Mod Champion
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Drag Week Mod Champion
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
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493, 11-1, mopar 590 cam, edelbrock head, weiand x ram and sixpack. 4000 vert. 355 gears 3780 lbs
10.50 around 125 i think.
Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135 Follow @g3hemiswap on instagram
performance only racing, CRT, ultimate converter, superior design concepts, ThumperCarbs
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Re: Standard-port 493-512 builds?
[Re: BradH]
#2718926
11/24/19 04:36 PM
11/24/19 04:36 PM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,490 Sydney,Australia
tex013
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,490
Sydney,Australia
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Hypothetical scenario:
Take all the top end parts of a 680 HP / 600 torque 3.75-stroke combination with standard Victor heads.
Put them on a 500"-ish short block and keep the CR in pump gas territory... probably bump up the cam for the extra cubes.
What's the likely end result?
EDIT: I'm very happy with the my 3.75-stroke combination and it's a really good match for my car. I'm describing mine because it's a better example of what I was trying to ask than I think how most people understood my question. Brad I can only say the bigger port seems to help on a 440 or 505 . I ran the CNC stealths on my 440 ,10.75:1 520 lift sft , best of 10.88 mostly high 10.90s/11.00s . Took complete top end and fitted to 505 , 11.0:1 .600 sft , went 10.50 . Only difference was going from 1 7/8 Hookers to 2"Dougs headers . Same transmission , converter , gears , tyres .Swapped to transbrake and bigger stall . As noted , then swapped on TF270 , ports in Stealths cracked , then found split block . Swapped this top end back onto the 440 , just unwrapped it and fitted , best of 10.71 . And this was after fitting a taller 30"radial , had run the 28x10.5 Pro Bracket radial All these motors run on 98 pump gas , street exhaust to diff and are daily drivers . So put the top end on a 505 , it will make more power . That's my experiance Tex
New best ET 10.259@129.65 . New best MPH 130.32 Finally fitted a solid cam, stepped it up a bit more 3690lbs through the mufflers New World block 3780lbs 10.278@130.80 . Wowser 10.253@130.24 footbraking from 1500rpm Power by Tex's Automotive
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Re: Standard-port 493-512 builds?
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2718971
11/24/19 07:09 PM
11/24/19 07:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
OP
Taking time off to work on my car
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OP
Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Never say never........ but I’d be pretty surprised to see 745hp out of a 10.8:1 499 with std port Victors. Same here. It didn't seem realistic to show that big a jump from basically nothing but another 47 cubes. I could plug the same changes into a different sim program... but I wouldn't put any more faith into whatever that one might come up with, either.
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Re: Standard-port 493-512 builds?
[Re: BradH]
#2719078
11/25/19 07:37 AM
11/25/19 07:37 AM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 291 PA
Harry's Taxi 2
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 291
PA
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I have standard port Indy ez's 4.350 x 4.15 7.1 rod 13.3-1 comp. flat tappet cam 272/280 @.050" 110 ls .407"/.406" Lobe Lift 1.6 int./1.5 exh. rockers M1 tunnel ram w/2-750's torque flight w/9inch converter (going back to a fairly tight 8" w/4.56 rear gear for next year) 4.10 gear 14.5x32.5 tire 2620lb.w/driver 5.75 1/8 @119 9.08 @147 1600 d.a. best so far.....I'm still working out converter and rear gear combo.
goal is to run 8's in most any weather with a flat tappet cam.
'86 Maple Grove KOS Mopar low qualifier......true street legal with no power adders.
NOS-used when losing since 1940.
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Re: Standard-port 493-512 builds?
[Re: BradH]
#2719139
11/25/19 12:20 PM
11/25/19 12:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,200 Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,200
Oregon
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Never say never........ but I’d be pretty surprised to see 745hp out of a 10.8:1 499 with std port Victors. Same here. It didn't seem realistic to show that big a jump from basically nothing but another 47 cubes. I could plug the same changes into a different sim program... but I wouldn't put any more faith into whatever that one might come up with, either. My (somewhat educated guess) is that if you added a 4.25 crank to your existing engine combo you would pick up some torque but not change the peak power numbers by much. Same peak numbers but at a slightly lower RPM. The car probably would not be any faster at the track unless you figured out how to take advantage of the extra torque. The car would drive a lot nicer on the street though. It would feel stronger from stop light to stop light. I think you would enjoy the car more even if it wasn't any faster down the track. I also think the tuning window would be wider.
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Re: Standard-port 493-512 builds?
[Re: Harry's Taxi 2]
#2719153
11/25/19 01:03 PM
11/25/19 01:03 PM
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 511 Temperance, MI
68 HEMI GTS
mopar
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mopar
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 511
Temperance, MI
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400/511
72 400 (630 block) 511 source kit -24cc dish .035 over Positive deck +.010 / .051 cometic gaskets Indy S/R's ported by MCH. 75cc chamber (standard port window) PRH SFT 260/266 .390 lobe lift on 110 in @ 106. Nitrided 1.6 Indy rockers Milodon 7qt pan with 1/2" pickup TTI step headers the 3" TTI exhaust & 3" delta flows Source girdle with stock caps
727TF T/A valve body Billet steel drum 9 1/2 " Tci 4700 flash
69 road runner 3760# Over 4g with 240# driver Stock suspension with old GTX Leaf springs Frames tied 4.10 Dana with original trac lock and 23 spline axels Summit drag shocks on rear
driving to the track and running air cleaner, mufflers, and no tail pipes. Had I not wanted to run the six pack I would have went MW port.
Last edited by 68 HEMI GTS; 11/25/19 02:05 PM.
68 Dart GTS "HEMI" 10.30 @ 131 pump gas street car 3780# 69 Roadrunner 511 six pack 10.92 drive to track street car
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