Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results
[Re: BradH]
#2715357
11/13/19 10:35 AM
11/13/19 10:35 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,499 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,499
So. Burlington, Vt.
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Chad also has a cnc program for the Victor heads that supposedly gets them into the 400cfm range.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results
[Re: mopar dave]
#2715365
11/13/19 11:09 AM
11/13/19 11:09 AM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,030 ohio
67mprfan
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,030
ohio
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Nice combo. 13:1 and a solid roller does alot for your combo imo. Still wish I would have built a 470. Dave we can trade motors my rotating assembly is at the machine shop now (good luck you'll find the missing piece)
71 demon stock stroke 440/indy ez-1 running 10.10 @ 132.14 mph in the 1/4 and 6.36 @ 107.46 mph in the 1/8 not in the same weekend but It did it then I sold it. 67 Belvedere that worked it's way in the 10's
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Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results
[Re: mopar dave]
#2715421
11/13/19 01:08 PM
11/13/19 01:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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... Still wish I would have built a 470. That makes no sense to me. Everything you're trying to do should be easier w/ more cubes. I can't count the # of times over the years that Dwayne & Andy have said (in effect, if not exactly) that it would have all come together for me much more easily if I'd stuffed in more cubes, rather than continuing to push a stock-stroke N/A 440 closer to its streetable limits. Never have I claimed to be a quick learner.
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Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results
[Re: BradH]
#2715435
11/13/19 01:42 PM
11/13/19 01:42 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,030 ohio
67mprfan
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,030
ohio
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... Still wish I would have built a 470. That makes no sense to me. Everything you're trying to do should be easier w/ more cubes. I can't count the # of times over the years that Dwayne & Andy have said (in effect, if not exactly) that it would have all come together for me much more easily if I'd stuffed in more cubes, rather than continuing to push a stock-stroke N/A 440 closer to its streetable limits. Never have I claimed to be a quick learner. When I bought my Molnar crank last year black Friday sale at Mancini. I talked myself out of the 4.250 crank because I told myself to be conservative and not push a stock block. Like Dave I also have a E.T goal and still want street drive ablilty...Appt of good knowledge on this site Thanks everyone for sharing
Last edited by 67mprfan; 11/13/19 01:44 PM.
71 demon stock stroke 440/indy ez-1 running 10.10 @ 132.14 mph in the 1/4 and 6.36 @ 107.46 mph in the 1/8 not in the same weekend but It did it then I sold it. 67 Belvedere that worked it's way in the 10's
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Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results
[Re: mopar dave]
#2715520
11/13/19 08:45 PM
11/13/19 08:45 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,204 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,204
Bend,OR USA
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I'm not in that camp more cubes the better. A 470 will out accelerate a 511 due to friction. Longer stroke, faster piston speed etc. I had a similar deal with my sb. I wanted a 3.79 stroke and everyone said more cubes the better. So I went 4". I have seen more bad ass 3.79 stroke combos than 4". I think the shorter strokes make it easier to get to you goal. Not saying longer strokes dont work, do get me wrong. This is just my opinion and what I have seen. Some myths get repeated, some get rejected as wrong, if your talking about similar prepared street and strip motors with the same compression carb size, cam, heads, exhaust, tune up, chassis, tires and so on in the same car with all the same parts a 4.250 stroke 400 or 440 block will outrun a 3.91 stroke every day of the year Been there done that The only combo stroke I haven't used yet for a good drag race motor is 4.00 stroke with a 4.500 bore or so, maybe soon Torque moves the mass, not HP
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results
[Re: AndyF]
#2715632
11/14/19 09:20 AM
11/14/19 09:20 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 8,041 Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 8,041
Mt Morris Michigan
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I agree with you Andy. My issue is somewhere in the induction system. I'm just saying a 470 is a more efficient running engine than a 511 at rpm imo. Here's some bad ass short stroke motors from the factory. The 340 was a bad ass, 3.4 stroke and 4" bore, 426 hemi with a 3.75 stroke and large bore, 440 with 3.75 stroke and large bore, the 327 chevy with 3" stroke and 4" bore, the 396 chevy with 3.75 stroke and large bore, the 427 chevy with 3.75 stroke and large bore just to list a few. The big 3 built short stroke large bore motors for a reason. The 470 mopar is just a better designed motor to hit you goals easier with less money imo. They don't need big expensive heads and big headers etc to get there. I have not seen a 511/512 build up that really impressed me. I have seen several 470's that were quite impressive. I could be way off base here, but someone show me an impressive 511/512 build that was built with rpm heads or something similar and made big power, 750+ horse power. From what I have seen 511/512 builds make about the same as a 470, so why piss with all the bound up friction and parasitic losses when you could build a 470 and have a more free running engine that's less likely to throw a rod or break your block? They rev quicker and accelerate faster"per Rerer and Morrison" than a longer stroke motor. A 470 is still in my future.
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Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results
[Re: mopar dave]
#2715651
11/14/19 10:37 AM
11/14/19 10:37 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Combination, combination, combination... Did I mention it's all about the combination? You know you currently have a mismatched combination. You can: - do nothing but tune what you have the best you can (0 - $), - or Band-Aid your areas of concern ($-$$), - or sh!t-can everything you suspect doesn't work w/ the combination and start over from some point in the build ($$$-$$$$). Let's say you get it dialed in well w/ the current combination and it's running consistent 10.4s. How much are you willing to pay for each additional tenth in ET reduction? Let's say you spend $1000 - $1500 on it and it drops into the 10.3s. Are you willing to call it good enough? Let's say you spend $3500 - $4500 and it runs 10.0s in normal conditions and has the potential to dip into the 9.9s under really good conditions. That's around $1000 per .1 in ET reduction. Are you "done"? And was it worth it? I don't know your budget, your REALISTIC goals, your STRETCH goals, or what your current plan is. What I do know is you have taken ME and raised the neurotic level up a couple of notches.... well, maybe only one notch... well, maybe not any notches, but you've gone more public with it. We've discussed your build in public; we've taken it offline to multiple PMs; and I'm not sure you're any clearer re the above than you were the first time you posted about the engine not meeting your expectations. I REALLY want to see YOUR stuff run well. I REALLY want MY stuff to run well, too. At some point, there has to be a definitive "It Is What It Is" point, though. For ME, a 10.0 ET is as fast as my car will ever be legal to run (STRETCH GOAL). And I have a definite capped budget which, to be embarrassingly & publically honest, I haven't managed well. << ANYBODY NOTICE THAT I HAVE 2 NICE CARBS AND SOME SWEET VALVE TRAIN PARTS FOR SALE? >> Based on all the paper data -- an no empirical data, unfortunately -- my REALISTIC goal is 10.2s, with possibility of dipping into the 10-teens on really good days. I think it's time for YOU to lock down something in terms of budget, plan, expectations, etc. It doesn't have to be public knowledge, but it's gotta be something you can put down on paper and say to yourself: "Yeah, I can live with this." BTW, the LAST thing I'd change w/ what you have now, unless it's really not mechanically sound, is your current short block. I think your 470 vs 512 philosophy is fundamentally flawed, but will leave it at that. That's everything that I can offer.
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Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results
[Re: BradH]
#2715654
11/14/19 10:59 AM
11/14/19 10:59 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,499 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,499
So. Burlington, Vt.
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I always get a chuckle out the “cubes don’t matter” arguments. If that were the case, then why is it in pretty much any racing series or class that has a cube limit........basically has the entire field running the max allowed? Take NHRA Pro Stock.......bump the limit to 550ci. No one that stayed at 500” would be competitive in a very short amount of time. Having a combination be more “efficient” isn’t the same thing as making more “power”. A 470 making 700hp is 1.489hp/ci A 511 making 735hp is less efficient at 1.438hp/ci....... but it’s still 35hp more. As for the 4.25 stroke/6.535 thing being some sort of hurdle to overcome........ This is one of their budget friendly combos: https://www.shafiroff.com/chevy-drag-race-engine-sportsman/565-big-block-drag-race.phpHere’s another one....... more hp, more rpm...... same stroke and rod length: https://www.shafiroff.com/chevy-drag-race-engine-pro/565-big-block-drag-race.phThe rod ratio for a 6.535 rod and a 4.25 stroke is 1.53....... same as a stock 454 or 502 Chevy. Shafiroff also sells a 440” small block with a 6.00 rod and a 4.00 crank, which has a slightly poorer rod ratio of 1.50...... that one makes 950hp. Peak tq @6800....... peak hp @8100.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results
[Re: mopar dave]
#2715671
11/14/19 11:58 AM
11/14/19 11:58 AM
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,708 central il.
second 70
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,708
central il.
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Dave a 327 was a 4" bore by 3.250 stroke the 302 was a 4" by 3.00 stroke which was really just a 350 block with a 283 crank with the compression raised to 11 to 1.
Last edited by second 70; 11/14/19 12:02 PM.
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Re: Andy, your 470/270TF indy 440-3 results
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2715674
11/14/19 12:17 PM
11/14/19 12:17 PM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317 State of confusion
Thumperdart
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317
State of confusion
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Then how come so many 500+ ci motors can't get into the 9.70's? I have LOTS of customers that wish they were faster but run much slower than my lowly 470 and they have real heads and max wedge ports with much more volume compared to my rpm's. There has to be something said about short strokes and rpm's and one guy I did a pr. of super trick 850's with BLP NASCAR thinned blades and shafts goes 5.20's so far at 331 cubes and he shifts at 9700+ rpm's.......One thing I think helps some cars especially traction/tire limited stuff is not torque but the ability to rev the snot out of em and not have em hit the tires so hard that they spin off the line........
Last edited by Thumperdart; 11/14/19 08:09 PM.
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
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