Any company making these products and selling them for profit has to expect to serve folks who aren't experts or who may not have an engineering degree. The company's job will be to put their emotions aside and figure out how to help their customers get the job done, even if they're in "the wrong" to complain.

They don't have to accommodate this kind of customer...but they can also expect to go out of business pretty quickly if they don't. The narrow band of customers who are savvy enough to modify, weld in parts like this...but not quite savvy enough to make their own parts, will only take them so far.

You forget the narrow band of customers that can weld them in and trim them to fit but don't have the tools to make them from flat sheet

I don't have a bead roller, or a brake or a shear or a hole dimple and it is way cheaper to buy something close enough to trim to fit than it is to buy all the tools to make something that well to be honest you are trimming to fit too in a round about way too. Of course that narrow band of customer isn't going to call in and whine about having to trim to fit.

Dealing with retail customers is having to deal with a lot of stupid.

Those are all valid reasons to buy a pre-fab part that needs modifications. I totally get that. The kind of attitude displayed in the line I quoted above, if it came from a retailer, would merely prove that they're out of their depth in the retail world.

Dealing with customers who ask "stupid" questions or who make "invalid" complaints should be considered overhead. It's the cost of doing business...and it's exactly why we need to hire people who have the communication and interpersonal skills to accommodate customers while still protecting the company's interests.

It's a purely human reaction to receive a complaint and to become defensive but in this case, it's kinda like building a boat and being angry about the waves that lap against the hull. Being confronted by difficult customers is an absolute inevitability. Smart retailers will look inward and adjust their design of the boat so it can handle the waves.

They have absolutely no logical or ethical standing to complain about the source of their income. If I was financially backing a business that took this approach to customers, I'd pull my support so fast, their heads would spin. Nobody has to personally like dealing with rude or "stupid" people...but you can always find a new line of work if you can't handle it.

If the problem is pervasive, it might represent a need to change advertising to properly align customer expectations. Maybe this means a company needs to beef up technical support. Negative interactions are valuable information! I just don't know how a vendor could hope to be successful without understanding the simple fact that "people are people" and being totally unprepared to work with them.

So I've been car-crazy since I was a small kid. I have spent countless hours reading, watching, talking about, driving old cars... After all these years, I can do most jobs on my cars on my own but I'm absolutely not naturally mechanically inclined. I make mistakes and I ask stupid questions. I also have no sympathy for a retail business who mistakes me for being a stupid person. I have a good education and a good job and I have money to spend on hobbies (like old Mopars). They can earn either my business or they can kick rocks. I've encountered very few bad experiences in the "Mopar parts vendor world" but they are out there.

On the other side of that coin, I had to work a return with Summit Racing after the holidays (the new racing helmet was too small)...and I was blown away by their customer service. They were polite, friendly, gave me the benefit of the doubt, paid for the return shipping, emailed updates on the status of the return, etc. There's absolutely no question that this is part of their success.

Ok...I'm off of my soap box.

I worked retail for a several years and that is exactly where I formed my opinion of the retail world. I don't work retail anymore for a reason. Got tired of pretending the world's stupidest person wanting to return a part be bought from a completely different vendor was the smartest dude I ever met.

There are a number of quality fab companies out there that do not, nor will they ever, handle retail. You buy from their authorized vendors because they don't want to deal with the stupid either.

It works for them. You probably have used or seen their stuff too.

You like dealing with the stupid, kudos to you. Just be aware it's there regardless of what retail line you are in.

Replacing the core support is a pretty advanced modification to make to a car so I doubt there will ever be a wide market for these parts. It is kind of like replacing a quarter panel. Most people just don't have the tools or talent to tackle that job.

The core support in the Duster was hacked up so I was willing to take it on. As stated above, once I got into the job I realized that I was in over my head so I had a chassis shop complete the work. It is a good mod for anyone building a serious car. The new core support is much stronger than the factory one and flat design allows for more room. It looks like I'll be able to slide in a 27 inch radiator and shroud from a Cordoba.

Right on. I give you credit for recognizing that it wasn't for you.

Those fab shops that can't deal with "the stupid" are smart to stay in their lane too. They'd also be smart to man-up to quality problems and respond to customer demands that come from down-stream. Something tells me that would be rough for these folks who tend to assume the customer is wrong. I'm speaking from experiences at work as a buyer for aerospace components. Some shops get it, the others tend to lose business until they figure it out.

As a hobbyist car-part customer dealing directly with fab shops, I've had very good luck. QA1, Moser, etc. were all prepared to answer my basic questions and I ended up spending lots of money with each.

Going way back, a popular Miata performance part vendor gave me a bunch of crap about their screwed up casting issue on a turbo manifold after I dropped $6000 with them. In their defense it was a brand new design and I was willing to forgive some snags...I just resented having to do their R&D work as I tried to figure out why the damn waste gate wouldn't close. In the end they owned up, addressed the issue and proved that they're good people to work with. I wouldn't hesitate to do business with them again when I finally get another Miata into my life.

Maybe it's not that hard to treat customers well?

Sometimes the customer is right, sometimes the customer is wrong. I've seen both in the 20 years I've been making parts for the Mopar hobby. I've had several customers install their motor plates backwards and then they can't figure out why the engine doesn't fit. I had one very angry customer call me and cuss me out since the motor plate was offset. He told me that he had 40 years of Mopar experience and that the engine in a Mopar was supposed to be in the center of the car. He of course was wrong. Not sure if he was a stupid man or not, but the anger had made him stupid enough that he couldn't accept the truth.

Most aftermarket parts are designed to fit on an original car. Very few if any aftermarket parts are designed to fit with other aftermarket parts. As you add more and more aftermarket parts to a car the odds of stuff fitting and working gets lower and lower and eventually approaches zero. It isn't the mfg responsibility that the oil pump doesn't fit on your billet block which doesn't fit on the stock motor mounts and the headers don't fit on your raised port heads which don't work with your stock intake manifold. Ain't nobody responsible for that mess but the guy building the car.......

All very good points. I'll just add that just as the customer may not know when they're flat out wrong, the same could apply to you. I see no traces of humbleness or humility from the folks railing against "stupidity" here and that's a red flag to anyone.

Second, when people make a mistake (like thinking that a part should fit when in reality it's not compatible with their non-stock components), the seller's job to explain this to the customer in a way that protects the company's interest...meaning, you don't need to prove that the customer is an idiot to make your point.

Sometimes you have to lose to win. Give the fool their money back and figure out if you could have done something to prevent the mistake on the part of the customer. That might be cheaper than a prolonged fight with a customer who is surely gone forever, bad publicity and just bad vibes all around.

I hope it goes without saying that this is purely my opinion. I think a business can run however they want so long as they accept the consequences.

You have an interesting way to spin things. No one is railing against stupid people. It is a statement of fact that there are stupid people and that if you work retail you will have to deal with your share. Don't like it don't work retail. It is a statement of fact meant as a heads up, nothing more.

No humbleness or humility needed when stating a fact.

I can't tell if you're making any specific points about this thread or just giving us some of your wisdom.

There wasn't anything wrong with the kit as delivered from the vendor. If there were any problems they would be easy to spot since these are simple parts. The question was raised on how easy it was to install and the answer is that the kit is straightforward to install if you're a pro and impossible to install if you don't know what you're doing and don't have any tools.

The Moparts forum has members that range from pros to guys who dream about building a Mopar someday. This kit is a good fit for the pros.

I like the uscartool stuff, I put the frame connectors in both of my cars. I did my own shock tower inner fender braces, if they had the current ones available then, I would have bought that kit instead of making my own. The core support is interesting. I like the idea of it, I like how it’s flat and provides a little extra room for a fan. for whatever reason I can’t fit
The clutch fan on my dart, that I have on my duster, the extra room could make the difference. I’m skeptic of it actually adding strength, but I am still kind of interested in it. What is the material thickness?

It is 12 ga material so about twice as thick as the factory sheet metal. Very heavy duty kit.

Sounds like a gauge thickness upgrade for those with 39lb rotors, and there is only one member here who likely understands that comment, and he has me blocked.

No, some of us just don't care for the negativity...

I'm optimist, I hope people can see eventually the error of their ways when appropriate, even if requires a reverse change of course. Patting people on the head and passing out candy sends mixed messages in that regard.
But I'm not a perfectionist.

Back OT, adding any weight in front of the front axle, and/or above cars COG, from a handling non drag use standpoint, will seldom ever offer any benefits. 12 gauge is plain excessive, and I wonder if just a misstatement.

Why would I misstate it?

I've been thinking about your comments and am wondering what is driving them.
It appears that you have the opinion that some people are adding things to their cars that do not make much of a difference except to add weight. If that is your take on it, I can see your point. Maybe there are some people that are buying into a story.
I do not have a chassis jig to test any of this stuff. I rely on trusted professionals to do the testing and display their observations. It is obvious to me that the OEM factory stuff was a compromise of cost and durability. Cast iron rotors and calipers were part of that.
These cars were built in a different time too. The factories were trying to comply with crash standards, emission standards, fuel economy demands, etc. Handling was not a huge priority yet then.
Rick Ehrenberg has written for years about how to make our classics handle better than stock. He is a proponent of frame connectors. XV Motorsports did extensive testing in chassis stiffness. Now maybe they spoke about their findings to establish a false belief that their products were necessary....OR Maybe they were right. US Cartool offers some things that look similar to some stuff XV had. The stuff they offer don't seem to be very heavy. I don't know if you have ever cut apart one of these cars but I have. The frame rails are pretty flimsy on their own. So is the core support. Sure, welded together they are a lot stiffer but they do still flex a bit. The brace inside the front wheelhouse that fits between the cowl and upper control arm mount area ...To me, that seems to make sense. The one that runs under the radiator does too. I have a pair of A body front frame rails out back with the torsion bar crossmember and core support, all welded together as original. It will twist torsionally and you can see it in the core support area. This is just with two men twisting it. No engine or trans weight, no suspension, just 2 guys of average strength. The bracing there in the form of square tubing would probably be impressive.
For me personally, I have a few of these chassis stiffening items in my own car and I can attest that they did make a difference.
I welded the K member and added gussets around the steering box mounts. There is no flex there like before. I made my own torque boxes, essentially copies of factory versions. I added them after welding in 3x3" frame connectors. I may have been able to get similar results with smaller or lighter 2x2" units but the car felt much more solid after the installation.
My car, a 1970 Charger weighs 3940 lbs with a 440/727/8.75 axle with HD torsion bars, front and rear sway bars and a full interior. Whats a few extra lbs if it actually helps?

Intentionally, I haven't a clue.

As a human, there are many possibilities.

I am to assume then 12 guage is indeed correct?

I only put frame connectors and weld the k member in my street cars, I personally don’t believe in the core support on the A body platform (which is what I own) as the k member bolts in about 4 inches behind the rad support and that ties the front rails together.

My race cars have roll bars or full cages which stiffen the car up more than any amount of seam welding or body stiffer kit will ever accomplish...plus for the added weight I get the benefit of safety, which if you are truly going to go that fast in one of these tin cans is important to me.

Lot there to digest, but it deserves a response.

1. The vendor that is mentioned as the current supplier, IMO has a long proven track record of supplying "solutions" that are not well designed, including the cantilevered DS safety loop, the "rocky mountain" 3 sided frame connector, and now this essentially, a front bullet deflector/rad support, among others. I would never suggest these items have NO benefits, but the designs are often lacking, and don't appear to be well thought out, and for the average car owner, they should be aware of any shortcomings of these offerings. It's their money, and their car, and can make any decision they chose, including adding weight for little bang. Nobody should refrain from having a fair discussion, warts and all.

2. On to the core support, keep in mind all chassis loads effectively start at the tire contact patch, and migrate thru the suspension to all items of mass of the car. In our cars, the mass in front of the K member is minimal, and often unimportant, from a handing stand point. Up front, keeping the UCA pivot points positioned, is not well achieved with a 12g radiator support, located a distance away, with only some 14g(?) connecting the two.

I am not saying it does not make this area stiffer, but I question how important it is in the first place, and what benefit is really gained here. One hyperbole example, it might be like bragging about upgrading your radio antenna with a 1/2" Dia model, so it doesn't shake when the car is driven. when I read about the 4 post XV video from years back

3. OP has a well earned, long respectable reputation in our car world, and made his choices here to suit his needs, but others may have a different set of parameters.

4. I am surprised with this level of an upgrade, no mention has made about making the center upper rad support removable, for easier swaps, etc., which I have done, and will do on all my future cars.

5. To be be perfectly forth coming, my last Rad support I built, is 5/8" thick, weighs 9lbs?, is Carbon Fiber/Kevlar/multi Ply Russian Birch sandwich, it removed approx 3 lbs? from in front of the front axle.