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Re: US Car Tool stiff kit [Re: AndyF] #2606993
01/15/19 04:12 PM
01/15/19 04:12 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline
Striving for excellence
Kern Dog  Offline
Striving for excellence

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Tom Quad is now Dilbert ?

Re: US Car Tool stiff kit [Re: AndyF] #2607064
01/15/19 06:21 PM
01/15/19 06:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575
The Netherlands
BigBlockMopar Offline
master
BigBlockMopar  Offline
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Posts: 3,575
The Netherlands
I've spent some time looking at the rear bracing in my Dart and ways to improve it.
Just by grabbing the diagional braces, or just tapping on the package tray you can 'hear' improvements are possible.
At the time I just rolled some edges and added some longer welds in addition to the stock spot-welds, only to think to reinforce this area on a later date when I 'got a plan'.

As said, a simple (beadrolled) sheet of metal welded to the existing structure would moet likely add a significant amount of strength to the area (and at the same time block off any exchaust fumes that might find their way into the trunk area.

Re: US Car Tool stiff kit [Re: BigBlockMopar] #2607126
01/15/19 07:57 PM
01/15/19 07:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 350
central IL
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myduster360 Offline
enthusiast
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M

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Posts: 350
central IL
I've been eyeballing these hollow structures that are conveniently placed near the rear subframe, torque box and extend to the rocker panel. They appear to have some importance but yet never mentioned.

I had a thought I might try some dense structural foam in there.

FLoor pan (631x791).jpgFLoor pan1.JPG
Last edited by myduster360; 01/15/19 08:00 PM.

1972 Swinger 3.6L Pentastar
Diablo CMR tuner
Re: US Car Tool stiff kit [Re: myduster360] #2607136
01/15/19 08:25 PM
01/15/19 08:25 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 23,410
Here
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jcc Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
jcc  Offline
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1. Foam pretty much stymies future welding
2. Not sure what the big picture goal is achieved with foam
3. The unibody pseudo crossmember that you are considering filling, is effectively a big arch, in itself is a beautiful structural solution, but that "arch" requires large immovable abutments at each end, or a lateral member securely tying the two ends together to prevent spreading. The second solution does not exist in your pics. A rollbar with a lower lateral tube somewhat achieves that, OR so does a well designed rear DS safety loop assembly, or just a straight lateral connector attached below the DS, which can also tie in the rear seat/seat belt tie downs more robustly.
4. Best to make sure foam has some flame retardant qualities.
5. Those pics are of two different cars?


"When one’s appeal is emotional, it does not matter if there is no substance."
Re: US Car Tool stiff kit [Re: AndyF] #2607143
01/15/19 08:37 PM
01/15/19 08:37 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 350
central IL
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myduster360 Offline
enthusiast
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M

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Posts: 350
central IL
We're all serious about improving our chassis rigidity but some don't do much but either buy whatever we think might work or just complain manufactures don't provide reams of data that meet some unattainable standard and deride those who buy them anyway without the "proof".

Here's a fairly straightforward means to measure the chassis Torsional stiffness.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-9...-911-coupe.html

It would be helpful to everyone and a great reference to have a record of everyone's a car's torsional stiffness and what "mods"(if any) they may have.

It's on my to do for my Swinger.


1972 Swinger 3.6L Pentastar
Diablo CMR tuner
Re: US Car Tool stiff kit [Re: myduster360] #2607308
01/16/19 01:35 AM
01/16/19 01:35 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 23,410
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jcc Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
jcc  Offline
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J

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 23,410
Here
That link took an 1.5hr up biggrin

This from 2006 was pertinent however:

"Quote:
Originally posted by JanusCole
I was just re-reading this idea and I think it is brilliant. And I don't see why it could not be done in an aesthetically pleasing way. For instance, why not coat the entire inner tub from the rear package shelf to the pedal cluster with a strong structural epoxy - the same stuff they use to assemble airplanes. Then lay a dozen or so layers of carbon fiber on top - essentially creating a carbon fiber monocoque using the original unibody tub as a mold. Then you can cover it all with carpeting and the thing should be TOTALLY stiff...

Is this too simple? Am I missing something obvious?
Kind-of. Just because Carbon fiber makes strong tubs in F1 doesn't mean that it's a wonder material. Carbon fiber is quite strong in some situations (and directions), and not very strong in others. The reason that F1 tubs are so strong has to do with the following:

1) The tubs have very few if any openings in them excepting those required by the rules (such as the cockpit) and by serviceability requirements (such as access ports to the pedals). A convertable or Targa 911 tub is a completely different design.

2) As I said, CF is very strong in some dimensions, and not in others. Just slapping CF down like shredded Fiberglass will not by definition make a strong tub. In reality the tubs come out strong because some clever engineers have figured out subtle ways to align the individual plys, and combine them in certain ways to manage some very specific load paths, both from the suspension as well as in accident situations.

3) In many cases a honeycomb matrix is put between the CF layers in certain areas to increase the cross-sectional area and thus increase the regidity of the tub.

So the short form answer is that slapping CF down on the shell of a 911 will most likely not make it a whole lot stronger.

That being said, you did prompt a recollection of an old Formula Ford trick -- which is to squirt some two-part expanding foam into any enclosed cavities in the chassis. This trick was used to good affect in some spec classes (Formula Opel/Vauxhall comes to mind) where the spec chassis was somewhat less stiff then desired. Just as adding honeycomb can increase the stiffness of CF or FG panel, so can adding foam to an enclosed space. The downsides are:

1) A slight increase in weight.
2) Once it's in there, it's never coming out
3) Many of these foams turn into noxious gasses if heated or burned, so consider carefully where you decide to put them.

A clear opportunity for this trick would be in the rockers and frame rails of open 911's.

__________________
John
'69 911E

"It's a poor craftsman who blames their tools" -- Unknown
"Any suspension -- no matter how poorly designed -- can be made to work reasonably well if you just stop it from moving." -- Colin Chapman
Last edited by jluetjen; 06-21-2006 at 07:28 PM.."

Last edited by jcc; 01/16/19 01:37 AM.

"When one’s appeal is emotional, it does not matter if there is no substance."
Re: US Car Tool stiff kit [Re: Kern Dog] #2607767
01/16/19 10:11 PM
01/16/19 10:11 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline
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Granite Bay CA
Originally Posted By Frankenduster
Tom Quad is now Dilbert ?


No comment, Mr Quad ?

Re: US Car Tool stiff kit [Re: AndyF] #2608258
01/17/19 09:02 PM
01/17/19 09:02 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 186
B-Body Bull Offline
member
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Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 186
realcrazy laugh2

Re: US Car Tool stiff kit [Re: AndyF] #2608471
01/18/19 08:30 AM
01/18/19 08:30 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,482
Answering the call of the wild
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ThermoQuad Offline
top fuel
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Posts: 2,482
Answering the call of the wild
LOL here is my comment:
I changed my identity because you can and now i am going change it again as in not here anymore as i am done trying to be helpful providing technical support/information in the mopar world from years of experience and great lap times with pos old mopars.
panic

A-holys [sic] like the count and others take the fun out of it.
hammer

Playing with the cars on the road course was wayyy too much fun but alas the fun is over. I worked decades on very complicated technology moving from field service to tech support [help desk] and now it's time to just go have fun. The owners of project black and blue have both passed on within one year of each-other and the car is in the hands of the childs guardian. So the car is back in my hands - if all goes well i will bring it to carlisle and all of you experts can anal-ize [sic]it if i let you near it. drive


Hey Count you must be close friends with that so called tech magazine guy - post some pics of all the iron you flung around the road course for 24 years, better yet show us morons all the cars you built that could actually run laps and not cook the brakes. Yup blah blah blah......

No pics of the flex, just improved lap times an no more cracking paint where the dutchman is welded to the car -it's about paying attention you imbecile.

24 years of road course running 2x year - that's lot's of experience.

Whats yours Count?

Put up or shut up.

whistling

Last edited by Dilbert; 01/18/19 08:53 AM.
Re: US Car Tool stiff kit [Re: AndyF] #2608544
01/18/19 01:00 PM
01/18/19 01:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,094
central texas
K
krautrock Offline
top fuel
krautrock  Offline
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K

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,094
central texas
^ LOL wut....

Last edited by krautrock; 01/18/19 01:00 PM.
Re: US Car Tool stiff kit [Re: krautrock] #2608592
01/18/19 02:37 PM
01/18/19 02:37 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 23,410
Here
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jcc Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
jcc  Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
J

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 23,410
Here
Originally Posted By krautrock
^ LOL wut....


I'll have what he is having. beer


"When one’s appeal is emotional, it does not matter if there is no substance."
Re: US Car Tool stiff kit [Re: AndyF] #2608818
01/18/19 11:47 PM
01/18/19 11:47 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina Offline
pro stock
dangina  Offline
pro stock

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
other than the standard bracing (kmember, inner fender braces, lower rad braces, sub frame braces and torque boxes) I stitch welded the entire body, and I added these triangular braces from the crossmember brace to the fram rails from left over metal from the subframe braces - I figure with the higher loads from the beefier torsion bars it couldn't hurt

Re: US Car Tool stiff kit [Re: jcc] #2608822
01/18/19 11:58 PM
01/18/19 11:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,396
The Pale Blue Dot
Skeptic Offline
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Skeptic  Offline
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The Pale Blue Dot
Originally Posted By jcc
Originally Posted By krautrock
^ LOL wut....


I'll have what he is having. beer

_It's Friday, Make it a double beer beer

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