Re: 440 Build- Stock or Stroke ?
[Re: SunnyMopar]
#2585692
12/01/18 03:45 PM
12/01/18 03:45 PM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399 Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar
master
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master
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
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If you own a machine shop or can get the machine work done at a reasonable cost, you can save some money using the stock crank and rods. On our current 505 build we had a 77 440 with cast crank that needed to be turned, and was external balanced, so for us a stroker kit was an easy choice. Costs to consider with stock parts is turning/polishing crank and balancing the rotating assembly. For the stock rods, upgrade to ARP bolts and usually big end needs resizing. Add the cost of the piston press pin R&R. Block machine work should be the same, except need to clearance oil pickup boss slightly with the stroker kit. I consider the cost of the pistons to be about a wash for equal quality parts. What you gain with the stroker kit is more CID, higher quality materials, stronger 7/16" rod screws, much lighter pistons, plus lighter full floating piston pins. Also, the stroker kit pistons use thinner piston rings, where most of the stock style replacement pistons use the stock thickness ring pack.
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Re: 440 Build- Stock or Stroke ?
[Re: Iowan]
#2585693
12/01/18 03:46 PM
12/01/18 03:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296 Chicago, IL
TonyS451
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296
Chicago, IL
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For 400-500hp, other than upgrading the rods/pistons I'd use the 3.75 stroke rotating assembly and put entry level aftermarket aluminum heads on it. I agree with this, very simple. Yep, x2
2 kids and a dog
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Re: 440 Build- Stock or Stroke ?
[Re: SunnyMopar]
#2585695
12/01/18 03:48 PM
12/01/18 03:48 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 610 Boise
Moparteacher
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 610
Boise
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I see four avenues. #1 Build a stoke 10.1:1 440. The factory rating in 69' was 375hp/475tq. This will give you strong street performance with the driveabilty of a cruiser. Smooth, quiet, responsive and no maintenance. Add a few goodies like a intake and headers and you're over 400hp.
#2 stock displacement but racey. This moves the torque higher into the rpm range which results in more hp, but sacrifices responsiveness, smooth, quiet and driveability. Requires change in converter and possibly gears. Estinated $2-2.5k for good parts.
#3 Maximize displacement. Build the bottom end bigger, little to no changes up top. More torque, more responsive, smooth, quiet. 50 to 70 additional cubes will net an additional 100 ft lbs of torque give or take. And allows for additional cam duration and lift without sacrificing driveability. Estimated $2-3k in budget over stock parts.
#4 Build the top for additional air flow, stock bottom. Not as efficient as adding cubes, but will result in additional torque throughout the rpm range. Estimated $2k to $2.5k in budget over stock parts.
#5 Combination of #3 and #4. Stroker with better breathing top end. Greater torque throughout the rpm range. Great driveability, smooth, quiet, responsive and fast...very fast.
Molnar or 440source for the bottom. TF240 for the top. Edelbrock for the induction, Hughes for the valve train. Estimated additional additional $5-6K, plus machine work and assembly, in the budget.
Start with the budget. $3k?, $5k, $8k?
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Re: 440 Build- Stock or Stroke ?
[Re: SunnyMopar]
#2585767
12/01/18 06:14 PM
12/01/18 06:14 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,212 New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,212
New York
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The "I beam vs. H beam" discussion is 100 years old, with no answer in site. In some engines an H beam is not possible because of clearance problems to the block, cam, etc. IIRC Larry Widmer (assuming same volume of material and cross-sectional area) prefers H beam for boosted applications (high cylinder pressure) and I beam for NA (high RPM reciprocating load). I'm using H beam in my (30 psi?) boosted engine because... my manufacturer of choice only makes H beam for my engine. We're 50 years into aftermarket rods, and very little science appears in the catalogs, including "rated power".
For a happy street experience: 1. build the largest engine you can afford (stock block, stroker crank, quality rods) 2. quality aluminum heads 3. everything else is fluid depending on budget and time
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: 440 Build- Stock or Stroke ?
[Re: SunnyMopar]
#2585791
12/01/18 07:16 PM
12/01/18 07:16 PM
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,134 Lost in Time
Iowan
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,134
Lost in Time
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Then if you go big everything needs to be changed like radiator, carb or EFI, exhaust. Theres no free rides, these budgets can and will double especially if your starting with just a body and a core 440.
This forum doesn't reflect it but there are still more guys building stock or mild 440s than strokers.
Have a great day Iowan
"obsolete is neat"
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Re: 440 Build- Stock or Stroke ?
[Re: Iowan]
#2585793
12/01/18 07:28 PM
12/01/18 07:28 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,200 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,200
PA.
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Some guys are good at spending other guys money and we all aren’t rich. Like I said above budget comes first, or at least it should. Personally I would love to have a 1000 horsepower NA small block but for me the maintenance of having a 9000 rpm engine is out of the question as would the costs of building it. It all comes down to horsepower costs money. How fast do you want to go.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: 440 Build- Stock or Stroke ?
[Re: BradH]
#2585825
12/01/18 09:14 PM
12/01/18 09:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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What parts do you have now, and have you figured out a realistic budget? The OP still hasn't responded to these basic questions. IMO, the thread is dead in the water until he gets around to answering them.
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Re: 440 Build- Stock or Stroke ?
[Re: SunnyMopar]
#2586008
12/02/18 05:48 AM
12/02/18 05:48 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,298 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,298
Bend,OR USA
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I don't know if you are aware of offset grinding the stock Mopar rod crankshaft journals from the 2.375 size to BB Chevy rod journal 2.200 and increase the stroke from 3.7500 to 3.9100 or 3.900which allows you to run a lot better price BB Chevy H or I beam long rod like 7.100 length that is a lot lighter and it uses a lot light smaller .990 wrist pin. Many of the good piston companies make a shelf piston for this combination also You could end up with a 464 to 471 C.I. motor depending on the final bore size and stroke length Those motors flat rock, they don't make as much HP or torque as the longer stroke motors make but they do make what I consider a lot better than the stock stroke and heavy pistons and rods do I need to warn you though that I like speed and power, a BUNCH
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 440 Build- Stock or Stroke ?
[Re: Iowan]
#2586011
12/02/18 05:56 AM
12/02/18 05:56 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 18,582 Rust Belt, SW PA
Silver70
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 18,582
Rust Belt, SW PA
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I 30 days all those stroker kits go up 25 percent, about $700. I think we'll have a better idea on if that will happen after the G20 summit.
68 Road Runner, 69 Belvedere, 71 Challenger Vert 340 barracuda, 01 Ram CTD, 95 Ram, 04 Ram, 85 Daytona turbo Z 66 GTO, 06 Magnum RT AWD. 07 Ram CTD, 07 Ram
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Re: 440 Build- Stock or Stroke ?
[Re: SunnyMopar]
#2586052
12/02/18 11:59 AM
12/02/18 11:59 AM
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Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 570 UK
rb446
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 570
UK
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Simple is the key as you say, for a 99% street car that will be a 4spd?, or even 727 I would build a>
9.5>10:1 440ci, TF240 heads, ($2200 but worth it), a mild hyd or HR spec'd cam as mentioned. An Eddy RPM intake or air-gap perhaps and a 950DP at least. You'll easily reach and surpass your 450>500hp target with a mild cam with those TF heads flowing 310cfm@ just .500"and have plenty of torque.
For those odd trips to the track with sticky tyres it could run mid 11's@122....Driveability is not just about cam choice if you like getting into the throttle on the street with a 512 motor.
Last edited by rb446; 12/02/18 12:01 PM.
1969 'Cuda 446ci, best 9.96@133.9 in 1990 1971 340 'Cuda, best 11.01@122.8 in 1987
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Re: 440 Build- Stock or Stroke ?
[Re: SunnyMopar]
#2586077
12/02/18 01:15 PM
12/02/18 01:15 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,212 New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,212
New York
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Six Pack looks cooler, but could be more difficult to get the tune right than a common 4-BBL carb. If you don't have anything for the Six Pack now, then you'll spend far more for the parts, too.
This^^^
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: 440 Build- Stock or Stroke ?
[Re: SunnyMopar]
#2586102
12/02/18 01:55 PM
12/02/18 01:55 PM
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,134 Lost in Time
Iowan
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,134
Lost in Time
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The man wants a 440 six pack, how can you fault that?
Have a great day Iowan
"obsolete is neat"
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Re: 440 Build- Stock or Stroke ?
[Re: Iowan]
#2586167
12/02/18 03:46 PM
12/02/18 03:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,243 Charlotte, North Carolina
sgcuda
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,243
Charlotte, North Carolina
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The man wants a 440 six pack, how can you fault that? Before tuning, the biggest problem I see is the expense of a six pack set up vs. a 4 bbl. This will be especially important if the $6-8,000 budget is trying to be kept on the low side. A new six pack setup will eat up a third of that money alone.
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