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Re: Paint Type Summary Request
[Re: Marq]
#25838
09/22/06 03:42 PM
09/22/06 03:42 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
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Marq - Quote:
When you reach the final coat of paint and are satisfied that you have good coverage and appearance, I believe that you should wait one, two, three or four weeks before doing the final wetsand, compounding, polishing and waxing.
Wow, that's quite awhile! I finished most of the car, but I have to do some touch up work on the hood. I was going to get out the 2000 and buffing compound this weekend though, a mere 3 days after painting. All the other coats have had a long time in between coats, at least 5 days per overcoat.
Cyberbackpacker -
Quote:
I checked brightside and they don't really have an orange that I found. Plus the cheapest marine store around here wanted $37 a quart, and with my Jeep Cherokee I figure I am going to need a good 3 quarts at minimum (doing door jambs, underneath hood, inner hatch, etc.)
I have put 4 coats on my 240SX (3 door fastback, in case you're unfamiliar) and thus far I've used probably 1 and 1/3 cans. I bought 2, so I've still got some room for touchups and to fix any OOPS oversanding  
Remember guys, IMHO the most important thing in a paint job is the prep work. You can get shine from a rattle can, if you work with what's under it beforehand. Brightside just happens to be longer lasting. I personally sanded with 1000 wet after each coat, and you can spend an hour on each panel. It's that kind of attention to detail that really shows at the end. Evvvvvvvvveryone was a skeptic in the beginning, now all my housemates tell me how good my "new car" looks. Great opportunity to cheaply go after a few nagging rust spots, and repaint the whole thing also. Now guys in Audi TT's, WRX STis and Evos look at ME, cause I've got the clean, stock look on a 16 year old daily driven import car in a world of loud mufflers and huge rims (with small brake drums  ). It pays to be in the know! 
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Re: Paint Type Summary Request
[Re: Exit1965]
#25839
09/22/06 04:59 PM
09/22/06 04:59 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 575
Canada
Marq
mopar addict
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mopar addict
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 575
Canada
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Quote:
Marq- forgive me if you mentioned it before, but have you investigated the 2 part Interlux paint, Perfection? It hardens chemically, and can be rolled and tipped on just like brightside. But is more durable and probably shines up like a hardened single stage car paint.
The two part Polyurathane is definitely the superior product compared to all the paints that we have discussed. However, the only downside to it is that when you mix the two parts... the clock begins on how long you have to apply and work it. I am guessing that the 2nd part is a catalyst that accelerates chemically the hardening of the paint. My biggest single fear of an inexperience person attempting to 'roll and tip' it is that the paint would not be so forgiving timewise while you are applying it. It will probably 'set up' too fast for most folks to do a good job with. The advantage of the thinned Tremclad/Rustoleum or even Brightside is that you are buying yourself extra working time before the paint locks up and becomes unworkable. IDEALLY the two part polyurathane would be a great candidate for spraying. I believe that is where it would shine and is probably best suited. However, it is particularly NASTY to spray because of the chemicals it releases into the air.
Because YOU have done so many roll ons to your car, you may one of the few people who might be able to successfully pull off a two stage roll on paint job. It is only your experience in doing roll ons that puts you in that exclusive group of folks who 'might and probably would succeed'
Quote:
By the way, I took my fingernail to the sprayed on rustoleum in my door jambs, and if I press hard enough it comes off. So I'm looking for something HARD at this point if I am going to repaint it.
Well... hardness is the key feature of the two stage polyurathane. For hardness it is probably somewhere in between a factory baked paint job and a paint shop 'baked' paint job.
Quote:
The other question is if a hardened 2 part poly would pull up the rustoleum underneath it.
Well... I can not answer that question based on any hands on experience. I can say that the Brightside polyurathane worked extremely well when I paint over the initial layers of Tremclad that I had applied. My brain seems to tell me that with the two part polyurathane... there would be no problem with the paint itself on Tremclad or Rustoleum.. BUT the probably may exist between the catalyzing agent of the 2nd part. I imagine it is like Bondo, where you add the catalyzing creme and this causes a chemical reaction with the Bondo... causing it to harden, while at the same time generating heat. It is during those initial minutes where the catalyzing is occuring that the Tremclad or Rustoleum might take offense at what is happening. If I was to guess at what would happen, I would think that it would be a massive wrinkling or elephant skin type effect... where the lower paint heaves, compresses, stretches etc and the upper coat of the two part polyurathane hardens and freezes the movement of the paint below...
Quote:
found this on a Sailing forum:
http://daysailer.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6287&sid=2a55365ad05516bb8bff5973338e3b6f
A discussion of brightside and then rustoleum (of all things!) on boats. Heck, I don't know what to do. I'll probably end up moving onto the much needed mechanical work, and see how tough the rustoleum is in a couple months where I sprayed. If it's hard I can spray the whole car, if not I can revisit the brightside or Perfection idea.
Well.. the boat guys have had the 'roll and tip' method going for them for quite a long time. So I figured there was a lot we could learn from their long collective history of information. That is what eventually lead me to settle on using Brightside in the end.
As I mentioned before in a previous message, I believe that the quality of paint job that you hope to end up with will most likely be best obtained by spraying Brightside. Oddly enough, even in the 'boaters' forums, they too also were fairly unified at declaring a sprayed Brightside paint job was always more professional looking than a 'roll and tip' Brightside paint job.
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Re: Paint Type Summary Request
[Re: Exit1965]
#25841
09/22/06 07:17 PM
09/22/06 07:17 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Can Marq or anyone who has used brightside comment on the hardness? I was hoping my rustoleum would be 'rock hard' by now, but I can still put an indentation in it by slicing it with my fingernail. I don't know how this will affect polishability (I guess it would?) but I don't like the fact that it isn't 'rock hard' yet, after 2 months or so...
Quote:
I am wondering now if putting the paint on too thin makes it not has hard as it could be? I put thin layers on my car, and can dent/slice the paint with my nail...
I'm dissatisfied with the hardness of the finish, and I'm considering either spraying the whole car with Rustoleum + mineral spirits, or trying boat paint with a roller...
Glad this is just a hobby and not my livelihood, or I'd be bankrupt by now...
Quote:
By the way, I took my fingernail to the sprayed on rustoleum in my door jambs, and if I press hard enough it comes off. So I'm looking for something HARD at this point if I am going to repaint it...
Looks like you guys are finally seeing the problems I talked about a few months ago...The info given on this forum goes from guess work to just plain BS!
I painted my car with "real" auto paint and here's a couple of observations for you:
a. You CANNOT paint over soft paint...if you do not remove it, it will have an adverse reaction with the two-part paint.
b. You can roll on auto paint...after adding hardener it will last about 2 hours before hardening beyond use...the upside, you can mix as little as a few ounces at a time so drying before rolling shouldn't be a problem...
Try this web page for good reasonably priced paint. It's where I orderd mine and i'm extremely happy with it...Chuck
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Re: Paint Type Summary Request
#25842
09/22/06 08:54 PM
09/22/06 08:54 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 575
Canada
Marq
mopar addict
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mopar addict
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 575
Canada
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Oh Chuckie... this is going to be a long one... Quote:
Quote:
By the way, I took my fingernail to the sprayed on rustoleum in my door jambs, and if I press hard enough it comes off. So I'm looking for something HARD at this point if I am going to repaint it.
The other question is if a hardened 2 part poly would pull up the rustoleum underneath it.
Looks like you guys are finally seeing the problems I talked about a few months ago...The info given on this forum goes from guess work to just plain BS!
Oh that is a real appropriate example to quote there Chuck... an area that was SPRAY PAINTED in the door jamb with an aerosol SPRAY BOMB.
I know you are starved for something to critique and use to support your anti-antirust paint bash.. but why pick on a spraybombing in a door jamb.
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Quote:
I painted my car with "real" auto paint and here's a couple of observations for you:
Rather than a few tainted observations I would rather have you offer to us a FEW PHOTOGRAPHS... preferably a few close ups as well.
A video shot of you attempting to scratch the surface of your fresh automotive paint would also be appreciated to assure us that your paintjob can resist the deliberate digging of a fingernail into it.
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Quote:
a. You CANNOT paint over soft paint...if you do not remove it, it will have an adverse reaction with the two-part paint.
Now... was that your BS or your GUESS ? You basically just said the same thing that I had. The only difference being that I tried to explain WHY I thought that it would not work.
But I think even a chimp in the trees in Africa could have concluded or guessed or BS's that ANY PAINT put on top of an unstable subsurface is not going to workout.
However it is not a question of whether he is spraying OVER "soft paint'... but how the catalyst and chemical reaction may react with the paint it is applied over. But then again I am only guessing 
Quote:
b. You can roll on auto paint...after adding hardener it will last about 2 hours before hardening beyond use...the upside, you can mix as little as a few ounces at a time so drying before rolling shouldn't be a problem...
I don't think anyone has anything negative to say about buying automotive paint and trying to spray or roll it. Heck.. even I went to a marine paint. But let us go back to the original purpose for this thread to find the cheapest way for a home fixer-upper to do it himself at low cost and minimal mess. The Charger method has successfully achieved that for quite a few examples in this thread who posted their photographs of the finished job.
And I truly believe that if enough people were totally screwing up their 'ride' because of information contained in this thread, than they would have joined your solo chorus. It is a simple law in the consumer world that MORE PEOPLE COMPLAIN than THAN THOSE WHO TAKE THE TIME TO GIVE PRAISE. And yet oddly in this thread things are completely inverse with the number of folks that are pleased and proclaiming it far outnumbering the naysayers ( at this point which consist of just you ). Odd.
Quote:
EXIT, i noticed the post on the previous page about going broke doing the auto painting...I guess this budget paint job isn't so budget!!
Come on Chuck. Don't take what EXIT said out of context or try to pretend that you are blind to the fact that most of EXIT's work on his paint job was done to experiment, test out how the colors would look, test the technique and refine his skills and most to share with everyone what he was learning along the way. But most importantly, EXIT said it as a JOKE... an amusing distortion of fact designed to illicit a chuckle in the readers of this thread. I am confident that you have been an avid reader of this thread and so I find that attempt to distort EXIT's comments to be misleading at the least.
I am curious why we only hear from you when you sense you have picked up on something negative being said about the paint or the process. AND yet you remain silent and fail to acknowledge all the pretty darn good looking paint jobs where the proud owners have graced this thread with pictures of their cars.
And to show you that I am a fair and equitable guy... I will say that you are right to some degree. Eventually ALL PAINT JOBS end up looking like crap... and I am including in this list factory paint jobs, pro paint shop paint jobs, home spray jobs and home roller jobs. It's called ENTROPY and this affects not only your cars paint job, but even something like your human body.. in that it is a proven state of physics that there is a tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve toward a state of inert uniformity. Basically put... all things turn to caca at some point.
I am sure everyone will thank you for providing the link to that company selling automotive paint. But I think a more constructive role for your postings in this thread would be to share with us what you learned while painting your car with that automotive paint.... I had no hesitation offering up that Brightside marine paint as a natural evolution of the Tremclad/Rustoleum thread and if you have been able to roller job automotive paint than I am certain there are a lot of people who would like to benefit from your hands on experience.
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Last edited by Marq; 09/22/06 09:25 PM.
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Re: Paint Type Summary Request
[Re: Marq]
#25843
09/22/06 09:28 PM
09/22/06 09:28 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,379
Rancho Cordova, CA
Exit1965
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,379
Rancho Cordova, CA
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Nice reply Marq. I've stopped trying to reason with Chuck, myself. When I saw that he had the most recent post on the thread, I could predict the content of his message. One correction though - the door jambs were sprayed with an HVLP gun. As fast as the sprayed rustoleum hardened (compared to rolled), I am going to give it awhile longer, to let it completely 100% cure, before I throw in the towel on Rustoleum. At that point, the rolled on paint may be harder too. I have been dilly dallying with the paint too long, time to dilly dally with mechanical stuff.  By the way Marq, thanks for your help and your ability to analyze things like you do. If people didn't hypothesize (guess!), experiment, analyze and share results, no one would get very far in anything. It's the recipe for progress.
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Re: Paint Type Summary Request
[Re: Exit1965]
#25844
09/22/06 10:20 PM
09/22/06 10:20 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
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ive sprayed (hvlp) my buick 8 coats now with no problems. i did have a hard time with the june bugs and moths landing on the wet paint..... i did the door and trunk jams with the hvlp and all is well the only thing is after wetsanding the dried sanding dust paint gets in the jams and dries so it will not be wiped off that it so far, ive tried to use mineral sprits and it didnt work so i used a scotch brite pad and rubbed the jams then repaint the jams after all the wet sanding is done... all in all this is a great way to paint a car and my friends think i am using dupont paint and clearing it after the paint has dried......
the only thing that makes this a not so cheap paint job is the prep work. i have total is 200.00 for all supplies because i didnt have any paint tools at all to do the project. but the next vehicle (1989 gmc s15 jimmy 4x4) should be cheaper now i will have sandpaper and tools to do the job. i used 3.4 quarts on my buick so far and i am done painting now all the wetsanding and buffing will be done.
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Re: Paint Type Summary Request
#25845
09/23/06 12:36 AM
09/23/06 12:36 AM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 575
Canada
Marq
mopar addict
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mopar addict
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 575
Canada
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Quote:
the only thing that makes this a not so cheap paint job is the prep work. i have total is 200.00 for all supplies because i didnt have any paint tools at all to do the project.
I guess the initial expenses when you are starting from scratch do boost up the cost of the initial paint job. In my case I had to pick up a new sander... because my old one died during the prep work... and I went and picked up that Porter & Cable polisher. Well, right there I had spent about $200. But the nice thing about those expenses is that I will continue to get that investment back long into the future. The same could be said for the compound, polish, and wax... in that I have four cars that I can put them to use on..
The same story would apply if I had gone the route of buying an HVLP spray gun. Although it initially would have been used for the car, the nice thing is that once you own it, you have it available for future projects. Good tools are always a safe investment.
The cost of paint, sandpaper, tape etc are an unavoidable cost and that is where the 'budget' part of the paint job applies.
The hours spent on the prep, painting, wetsanding and later compounding/polishing and waxing can easily run up the hours. But that sweat equity is an investment in your learning. Having gone through this entire process from start to finish I have a greater appreciation and understanding of all the stages in painting a car.
The only way I can look at this whole experience is to reflect on the time when I first pulled an engine, stripped it down, changed the rings, honed the walls, changed the bearings and put it all back together. It was scarey even considering delving into the heart of that engine, but once I completed it successfully, there was a great deal of satisfaction hearing that puppy fire up and run smoothly. What price can you put on that self-satisfaction or the knowledge you picked up along the way. The same sense of fear and accomplishment also happened when I ripped apart a manual transmission and rebuilt it.
Its sort of like Star Trek... to boldly go where 'not too many' men have gone before.. and its like "A Team" because I love it when a plan comes together... "
Last edited by 69DartGT; 09/23/06 05:07 PM.
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Re: Paint Type Summary Request
[Re: Marq]
#25846
09/23/06 02:40 PM
09/23/06 02:40 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Quote:
the only thing that makes this a not so cheap paint job is the prep work. i have total is 200.00 for all supplies because i didnt have any paint tools at all to do the project.
The cost of paint, sandpaper, tape etc are an unavoidable cost and that is where the 'budget' part of the paint job applies.
Chuckie would be like Robbie Robot on the tv show " Lost in Space "... with "WARNING.. WARNING... DANGER... Dr. Smith... WARNING.. "
So if your paying $25-30 a gallon for Rustoleum and you can purchase Acrylic Urethane for $30 a gallon and $15 for the activator, where is the big savings? The boat paint your favoring is actually the highest price...
Last edited by 69DartGT; 09/23/06 05:06 PM.
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Re: Paint Type Summary Request
[Re: Marq]
#25849
09/23/06 05:31 PM
09/23/06 05:31 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
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yah i see that the pait costs 50.00 thats cool, and for someone like me to paint my first car it is a great experiance. i was going to do a real paint job and saw that it would of cost me 2,000 just for paint and primer etc. etc. etc. (dupont) so i went this route and wow it looks better than a automotive paint job. when i do my 89 s15 jimmy it will cost 50.00.
thanks 69chargeryeehaa and marq
Last edited by mybuick; 09/23/06 05:33 PM.
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Re: Paint Type Summary Request
#25850
09/23/06 06:36 PM
09/23/06 06:36 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 28
georgia
darenrt
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member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 28
georgia
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I would like to than charger, exit, marq amd all the others who have given their time and efforts to these oh so long pages  and thanks to you also chuck for offering a different opinion. Me, I can't see paying anyone $300-$1500 bucks for a paint job on a car that A)Is worth less than the paint job. B)I'm going to flip when I see something wrong in the paint or my 7 year old hits it with his bike!! So far what I've read and done seams that if done CORRECTLY this can work very well. My fender and hood scoop look great and are hard as a diamond, the hood has pealed but the paint that came off was hard, I suspect it was bad prep and thats my fault not the paint's. now I'm gonna throw more fuel on the fire  a buddy of mine said when his boss would paint heavy equipment they mixed rustoeum with..........hold on!!!! gasoline  his claim is they came out looking great! I wonder what OSHA would say
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Re: Paint Type Summary Request
[Re: darenrt]
#25851
09/23/06 10:03 PM
09/23/06 10:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,405
Southern, Ca.
69DartGT
moparts member
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moparts member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,405
Southern, Ca.
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Quote:
now I'm gonna throw more fuel on the fire
a buddy of mine said when his boss would paint heavy equipment they mixed rustoeum with..........hold on!!!! gasoline
his claim is they came out looking great!
Edit: Crash truck was wiped down with AVGAS not thinned with it. Paint job still came out good though...
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Re: Paint Type Summary Request
[Re: 69DartGT]
#25853
09/24/06 10:28 AM
09/24/06 10:28 AM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,170
Cruising!
QuickDodge
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,170
Cruising!
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Some industrial two part urethane paints are advertised as being suitable for rolling in small areas. I've not found a small area defined though. (Is it 1 square foot, 100 sq. ft., or ????)
If anyone actually tries rolling a two part paint PLEASE post the results. I'm pretty sure the base coat / clear coat paints would be almost impossible to apply with a roller due to the recoating time. (as Charger mentioned many pages ago!) An acrylic enamel, the industrial urethanes, or some other two part paint MAY work. I've never heard of anyone trying it though.
Chuck's idea of mixing the paint and hardener as you go MIGHT make this practical. For example, paint a fender and the hood, pitch the remaining paint. Mix up another small batch and do the other fender and a door. And using Marq's idea of changing rollers several times through the paint job, or each time paint is mixed, should increase the odds of success with the faster drying paint.
Exit, on your Dart you may want to use a special primer if you're putting a two part paint over your existing Rustoleum. There are still a few single component auto paints sold. I've read somewhere that a primer is made to go between the one and two parts paints and tie it all together. Don't remember which company sold it though.
Last edited by QuickDodge; 09/24/06 10:31 AM.
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Re: Paint Type Summary Request
[Re: Marq]
#25854
09/24/06 01:25 PM
09/24/06 01:25 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Well, I got started on painting my '85 Jeep CJ7 yesterday, and I have some mixed thoughts to offer as well as a question to ask.
I am using the "eBay" Brightside Fire Red paint. Yesterday was rainy here in St. Louis, but figuring it was the first coat and I did not care about gloss or haze, or whatever, I decided to go for it. Oh, Friday night I used Rusteoleum Professional Safety Red spray paint to paint the areas that are hard to get to and not really rollable.
I cut the Brightside w/approx. 10% odorless mineral spirits (could not find the regular variety). It took a while to get comfortable with the rolling technique, and honestly, I am not sure I got it right at all. It did roll right over the borders of the sprayed on areas, no problem. Though I was trying not to, I may have used too much pressure with the foam brush when "tipping" the Brightside, as I got some streaks. However, it did seem to "level" out and today, looks pretty good. Very translucent, though, which I guess is to be expected after only one coat.
But, here is a problem and question for you experienced types. Oh, just for clarification, I have never done any auto painting. But, last night (about 6 hours after rolling on the Brightside), I decided to give the sprayed areas another coat of the spray Rustoleum. While doing that, there was some overlap of the spray onto some of the rolled Brightside. What then happened baffled me--certain of those "overlap" areas got very sort of crinkly, or alligator skin-like; but not all of those areas did this.
So, what may have caused that? I know the Brightside urethane can cover the enamel, but is the Rustoleum enamel not compatible with the urethane? Or, was it maybe that those certain areas where problems occurred were not totally dried or set up yet? They felt dry.
So, now I have to go back and sand those areas. The problem with my Jeep is that there are so many areas on it that the roller really is not usable on, that other than the hood (larger and flat), I probably should just rattle can spray the whole thing.
What I think I will do is go back and sand down the crinkly areas, then spray the sprayed areas one or maybe two more coats, and be all done then with the spray. After that, I will start laying down 3 or 4 more coats of the Brightside and see what happens.
Sorry if this seems disjunct or rambling, but I wanted to report my experience as thoroughly as possible. If any of you auto painting veterans have any thoughts, advice, etc. for me, please throw it out.
Thanks!
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Re: Paint Type Summary Request
#25855
09/24/06 01:46 PM
09/24/06 01:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,405
Southern, Ca.
69DartGT
moparts member
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moparts member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,405
Southern, Ca.
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Crusader I'm no expert but I think Rust0leum is an oil based paint and that will cause problems with most normal automotive type paints put over it.
Old days the saying was Enamel over lacquer but not lacquer over enamel the lacquer would curl/ or get the gator look.
BUT old enamel can be shot over with lacquer.
Last edited by 69DartGT; 09/24/06 01:50 PM.
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Re: Paint Type Summary Request
[Re: 69DartGT]
#25856
09/24/06 02:47 PM
09/24/06 02:47 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I have had the crinkel thing while painting a phone with Tremclad Spray paint. I sprayed over an area that had been sprayed with a non Tremcald paint (Krylon) and the Krylon started to crinkel up. I think it's because of the etching elements and gasses escaping from the drying Tremclad.
Dont mix paints, and if you do wait a real long time for them to dry.
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Re: Paint Type Summary Request
[Re: 69DartGT]
#25857
09/24/06 02:47 PM
09/24/06 02:47 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,204
Fort Worth, TX
Clair_Davis
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,204
Fort Worth, TX
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I haven't used any of this stuff, but it looks like another alternative for a durable alkyd enamel. They've also got polyurethanes, etc. PTI Paints at Aircraft SpruceI got an email last week about this stuff, and it looks pretty promising. Good range of colors, and the prices aren't bad. Can do custom mixing, too. Clair
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