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Re: How far should rear springs arch? [Re: DrCharles] #2582974
11/25/18 08:23 PM
11/25/18 08:23 PM
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West Plains, MO
DrCharles Offline OP
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The Dart will mostly see street time and the mono-leafs show quite high spring rates. We have crappy roads here in rural MO, too.

The monoleafs are $429/pr plus shipping, too. Budget is a factor here... one reason it's taken me 21 years to go from a bare block to a running car I can start to debug whistling

I may experiment with clamping the front segments - have you tried that and how'd it work out? work

Re: How far should rear springs arch? [Re: DrCharles] #2583092
11/26/18 01:21 AM
11/26/18 01:21 AM
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Freeport IL USA
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Clamping the spring ends on the front segment will help with traction, but qon't do a thing for ride height, or short shock travel.

You either need to relocate the ends of the spring height lower on the body, put more arch in the springs, or replace the springs if you want to change the ride height. I suppose you could go old school and add longer rear shackles, but I wouldn't go there. Gene

Re: How far should rear springs arch? [Re: DrCharles] #2583100
11/26/18 01:49 AM
11/26/18 01:49 AM
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Right, I didn't mean to imply that clamping would change the ride height. I just brought that up since I'd mentioned Caltracs. I've read too many bad things about longer shackles to want to go there either wink

These springs are ancient. I'm going to replace them. Then we'll see drive

Re: How far should rear springs arch? [Re: DrCharles] #2583259
11/26/18 03:40 PM
11/26/18 03:40 PM
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Replacement leaf spring sets from Springs and Things in your choice of arch will run around $220-250 a pair. SS competition springs from Mancini will be around $300 a pair. Shipping is on top of those prices.

If budget is a concern, you could remove and dis-assemble your current packs, purchase a pair 2" add a leafs for around $50, and re-assemble your springs with the lift spring, adjusting the leaf count for your ride preference.

If you don't have one already, pick up the Mopar Chassis book and learn how to tune the leafs you have now before you run down the Cal-tracs path on a predominately street use car.

Re: How far should rear springs arch? [Re: DrCharles] #2583266
11/26/18 03:51 PM
11/26/18 03:51 PM
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I've read that add-a-leafs will only band-aid things for a while? shruggy

I've still got my Direct Connection Chassis and Engine books that I bought in '83 and have read them smile

Caltracs don't sound like the best option for the street, so far.

Re: How far should rear springs arch? [Re: A727Tflite] #2583405
11/26/18 09:27 PM
11/26/18 09:27 PM
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Phila. Pa.
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Originally Posted By Transman

This is why production springs have very little arch, for toe control.

Drag race springs (without traction aids) generally want stiffer front segments, a higher front eye, and bias for launch control.

Exactly.
Stock springs were designed to be flat under average intended use. That's why there were so many different spring packs.

reposting from another thread:
Increasing the rear arch can improve launch on the drag strip if properly combined with sticky tires. It is also used sometimes by circle track cars in combination with other changes to improve coming off the corners.
On a production car, arch can have negative handling effects.
Flat is basicly correct. This is how Chrysler designed 'em. Chrysler explains it in the in this booklet about handling.

Trying to find the original rear ride height is difficult.
The only rear height info I've seen from the factory is at Hamtramck Historical.
http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/PassengerCarBumperHeights-01.shtml Note that on page two that these are for fully loaded (5 passengers, full fuel) but does not say what options. Also the bumpers are somewhat adjustable and the body has some slop. So these are visual body related, not so much suspension setup info.


If you will be taking it to the track, then the arch may be helpful.

Adding helper springs is only good for specific loaded situations. Otherwise its stiffening the rear roll rate and can lead to oversteer when your not going to appreciate it.



Re: How far should rear springs arch? [Re: Mattax] #2583413
11/26/18 09:38 PM
11/26/18 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted By Mattax
Originally Posted By Transman

This is why production springs have very little arch, for toe control.


Exactly.
Stock springs were designed to be flat under average intended use.



Or maybe to be more precise, flat and approaching level.


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: How far should rear springs arch? [Re: DrCharles] #2583467
11/26/18 11:56 PM
11/26/18 11:56 PM
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Hamilton, Ontario Canada
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Originally Posted By DrCharles
The shocks only have about 1.5 and 2.5" of rod exposed.




The shock absorber has less travel when standing more upright. The original position has a very steep angle to it. You not only lost compression travel but the same shock is now stronger in that position.

Last edited by Magnum; 11/26/18 11:57 PM.

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Re: How far should rear springs arch? [Re: DrCharles] #2584039
11/28/18 03:56 AM
11/28/18 03:56 AM
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MYRTLE BEACH SOUTH CAROLINA
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Though you may hear others say don't do that.... you can very easily re- arch your spring sets. I personally have done many of them. in fact , I put the whole spring pack in a press at one time ! measure your free arch . with the spring lying on its side on the ground . measure from the centering pin [ that bolts the set together] up to a center line through the spring eyes. put the springs in the press -- the front segment should be bent at about 4 and 6 " back from the front eye. a good 20 ton press will put 1/2 " more arch in them. try to put pressure in 2 places 2" apart . be careful! it takes effort. the spring will bend a long way and still come back so bend some and re-measure it . the springs may settle back some ...the 1/2 " will get you about 1 " in rear ride height gain. you will be happy with it. cost 0.00 $$$ or , you can put in longer shackles at the rear.....

Re: How far should rear springs arch? [Re: Mattax] #2584041
11/28/18 04:12 AM
11/28/18 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted By Mattax
Originally Posted By Transman

This is why production springs have very little arch, for toe control.

Drag race springs (without traction aids) generally want stiffer front segments, a higher front eye, and bias for launch control.

Exactly.
Stock springs were designed to be flat under average intended use. That's why there were so many different spring packs.

reposting from another thread:
Increasing the rear arch can improve launch on the drag strip if properly combined with sticky tires. It is also used sometimes by circle track cars in combination with other changes to improve coming off the corners.
On a production car, arch can have negative handling effects.
Flat is basicly correct. This is how Chrysler designed 'em. Chrysler explains it in the in this booklet about handling.

Trying to find the original rear ride height is difficult.
The only rear height info I've seen from the factory is at Hamtramck Historical.
http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/PassengerCarBumperHeights-01.shtml Note that on page two that these are for fully loaded (5 passengers, full fuel) but does not say what options. Also the bumpers are somewhat adjustable and the body has some slop. So these are visual body related, not so much suspension setup info.


If you will be taking it to the track, then the arch may be helpful.

Adding helper springs is only good for specific loaded situations. Otherwise its stiffening the rear roll rate and can lead to oversteer when your not going to appreciate it.


the toe is fixed in a solid rear axel. you have to bend the tubes to change it . rear steer is what you are talking about . as the leafs compress, they move the rear end back... if the arch is different in the pair of springs, the long side will move further and will steer .....

Re: How far should rear springs arch? [Re: DrCharles] #2584067
11/28/18 10:16 AM
11/28/18 10:16 AM
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It rear steers because “toe” has changed through suspension travel - toe relative to the centerline of the car.

On a hard turn one rear tire toes in the other out - relative to the centerline of the car.

Re: How far should rear springs arch? [Re: A727Tflite] #2584119
11/28/18 12:13 PM
11/28/18 12:13 PM
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However that is not true with deep arched springs if both wheels stay both on same side of axle centiliter in a hard turn, There is still a steering factor, but its not because wheels are moving opposite directions. This exception would certainly not be the norm.


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: How far should rear springs arch? [Re: DrCharles] #2584136
11/28/18 01:06 PM
11/28/18 01:06 PM
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ek3's has a valid point about using the term 'toe'. We understand what was meant but it could mislead someone. Rear steer effect is more correct description. Toe is better reserved for the relation of the wheels to each other.

Re: How far should rear springs arch? [Re: DrCharles] #2584421
11/28/18 10:30 PM
11/28/18 10:30 PM
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AFter looking at it I agree some people would get confused by using the reference to toe.

Rear steer or the correct term “thrust angle” is better.

Re: How far should rear springs arch? [Re: A727Tflite] #2584470
11/29/18 12:54 AM
11/29/18 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted By Transman
It rear steers because “toe” has changed through suspension travel - toe relative to the centerline of the car.

On a hard turn one rear tire toes in the other out - relative to the centerline of the car.
I am NOT picking on anyone.... toe is when the distance between a pair of tires is not the same . toe in, is less, toe out is more... when cornering in a left hand turn , the right rear [ body ] will roll over and this causes the right rear spring to flatten out making the right rear tire to move back. at the same time , the left rear [body ] is coming up, causing the left rear tire to come forward. thus the rear end has turned to the right . just like a pair of wheels on a creeper do when it is turning . the toe has not changed at all or at any time . if you place toe plates on the rear and measure , what you have is what you have .you can turn the rear but , both tires are moving together . the front spring segment travels through an up and down arc as well and as the spring is flattened out , it gets longer so that side goes backwards. the opposite happens to the other side ! just trying to explain- I know you meant the same thing.

Re: How far should rear springs arch? [Re: ek3] #2584471
11/29/18 12:56 AM
11/29/18 12:56 AM
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I just wanted to give the op an option of arching his current spring packs and not spending any cash.....

Re: How far should rear springs arch? [Re: DrCharles] #2584510
11/29/18 01:58 AM
11/29/18 01:58 AM
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Thanks, I appreciate the extra detail. But I only have a 12 ton press and anyway I'd need more than 1/2" arch, at least on one of them.

I think these 46 year old springs have had their day and it's time to recycle them into coat hangers wink New ones will be here tomorro.

Re: How far should rear springs arch? [Re: DrCharles] #2584751
11/29/18 04:21 PM
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I don'think your springs are original, so I wouldn't necessarily put them out to pasture yet, but if they do not provide the ride height and drag performance you want, then there is no point in keeping them. Their low arch and higher than stock rate does make them desirable to handling applications. You might be able to resell them to an interested party.

What springs did you order, if I may ask?

Re: How far should rear springs arch? [Re: DrCharles] #2584858
11/29/18 09:12 PM
11/29/18 09:12 PM
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These: https://www.generalspringkc.com/product_p/33-909.htm

It says "2-1/2 inch lift" so I was a bit wary - but they finally came today and I just finished putting them on. The car looks just right. I don't know if the spring relocation has the front eye at the same height as original - it may have been lowered by whoever did the work. shruggy

The shackles are pointing towards the rear, but at a less acute angle. With the old springs, the rear eye was just about hitting the frame. I may try lowering the front just a hair. It's a little high right now but Milodon oil pans are expensive to replace!

Now for alignment, what should I do about the front ride height? I weigh anywhere from 260 to 295 lb depending on the season wink so should that much weight be in the driver's seat? Will only occasionally have a passenger.

Re: How far should rear springs arch? [Re: DrCharles] #2584890
11/29/18 10:15 PM
11/29/18 10:15 PM
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What season should I drop in for the plentiful fixings? eek

I might be able to help you balance the car out riding shotgun. biggrin


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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