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Re: How Much Gain In The Tune Up? [Re: 383man] #2572877
11/02/18 02:10 AM
11/02/18 02:10 AM
Joined: Mar 2013
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Spring Hill Fl
65Fury440 Offline OP
mopar
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Originally Posted By 383man
Wow you are way down on power for that bad boy. As said MPH will tell you what kind of power the eng is making. I agree with use one timing light and set it for best power on the dyno. Honestly if the timing light is right then 42 sounds to high as most of these engines with modern aluminum heads seem to only need between 32 to about 38. To much in high gear once rolling can actually hurt power some. Many racers would actually retard the timing some in high gear once the cars weight is moving along. As said if you can get the car on a chassis dyno and tune from there it will help a lot as you are definetly missing some power that your eng should be making. As for shift rpm ??? Maybe I am just an old fool but 99% of the time I race I never even look at the tach going down the track. I just shift by how the eng is pulling by the feel of it. When it feels like its done pulling and peeking out I shift. Then I can mess with it some from there but my car is very consistent when I just shift by how the eng sounds and feels to me. And I don't think your shift point is the problem you have. Heck it could be as much as an improperly adjusted throttle cable which I am sure you have checked ? Good luck with it but get it on a chassis dyno and if you have any friends who are very good with hotrods and engines take them with you as the more heads thinking on this can be better to help find the problem. Good luck and keep us posted. Ron


Hey Ron, so this motor with the MW ports and cam keeps revving fast, It will hit the 7k chip really fast in first and second,so much you have to be on your game to grab gears.
I have been shifting it at 6500ish, just to keep the bottom end together longer.
I had a 10.3 second 63 Fury Max wedge car in the 90s that ran similar, that motor was a 13:1 426. It was faster but a lot lighter, and an automatic.
Tonight, I brought another timing light over, it matched the Snap On light. We plugged my old Craftsman in, 4 degrees lower.
I'll drop the coin on a chassis dyno, just to know where everything is at. Getting the AFR with open headers and RPMs it peaks at will be helpful. Thanks for the help!

Re: How Much Gain In The Tune Up? [Re: 65Fury440] #2572897
11/02/18 05:12 AM
11/02/18 05:12 AM
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To answer your questions on much HP can be gained on tuning I've seen 60 HP gain on a pump gas motor from the first pull to the last pull 34 puls later. That involved some cam timing, ignition timing, different range spark plug heat ranges and carb. tuning.
I've also seen only 20 HP gain from the same effort, I'm thinking the differences between those two motors was short block preparation and a good set up on the carbs to start with shruggy work
No two motors prepared the same will like exactly the same thing on all the tuneable components shock shruggy


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: How Much Gain In The Tune Up? [Re: 65Fury440] #2573043
11/02/18 02:33 PM
11/02/18 02:33 PM
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Anytime, and several factors come into play when I set up a carb. Power, shift points, weight, vert, gear, altitude, fuel etc ALL determine the size/design just like in cams..........As I sad, if you want a Dommy then we can add skirted banjos to get the velocity up through the boosters and it will help but the billet supoports about 850-900 so far from my dealings with different racers and you wont have to do the manifold stuff we discussed..........I'll do whatever you want either way........ coffee


72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
Re: How Much Gain In The Tune Up? [Re: 65Fury440] #2573046
11/02/18 02:35 PM
11/02/18 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted By 65Fury440
Originally Posted By 383man
Wow you are way down on power for that bad boy. As said MPH will tell you what kind of power the eng is making. I agree with use one timing light and set it for best power on the dyno. Honestly if the timing light is right then 42 sounds to high as most of these engines with modern aluminum heads seem to only need between 32 to about 38. To much in high gear once rolling can actually hurt power some. Many racers would actually retard the timing some in high gear once the cars weight is moving along. As said if you can get the car on a chassis dyno and tune from there it will help a lot as you are definetly missing some power that your eng should be making. As for shift rpm ??? Maybe I am just an old fool but 99% of the time I race I never even look at the tach going down the track. I just shift by how the eng is pulling by the feel of it. When it feels like its done pulling and peeking out I shift. Then I can mess with it some from there but my car is very consistent when I just shift by how the eng sounds and feels to me. And I don't think your shift point is the problem you have. Heck it could be as much as an improperly adjusted throttle cable which I am sure you have checked ? Good luck with it but get it on a chassis dyno and if you have any friends who are very good with hotrods and engines take them with you as the more heads thinking on this can be better to help find the problem. Good luck and keep us posted. Ron


Hey Ron, so this motor with the MW ports and cam keeps revving fast, It will hit the 7k chip really fast in first and second,so much you have to be on your game to grab gears.
I have been shifting it at 6500ish, just to keep the bottom end together longer.
I had a 10.3 second 63 Fury Max wedge car in the 90s that ran similar, that motor was a 13:1 426. It was faster but a lot lighter, and an automatic.
Tonight, I brought another timing light over, it matched the Snap On light. We plugged my old Craftsman in, 4 degrees lower.
I'll drop the coin on a chassis dyno, just to know where everything is at. Getting the AFR with open headers and RPMs it peaks at will be helpful. Thanks for the help!


You REALLY need to address the fuel supply before you hurt it.......... thumbs


72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
Re: How Much Gain In The Tune Up? [Re: Thumperdart] #2573089
11/02/18 04:20 PM
11/02/18 04:20 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 571
Spring Hill Fl
65Fury440 Offline OP
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Spring Hill Fl
Originally Posted By Thumperdart
Originally Posted By 65Fury440
Originally Posted By 383man
Wow you are way down on power for that bad boy. As said MPH will tell you what kind of power the eng is making. I agree with use one timing light and set it for best power on the dyno. Honestly if the timing light is right then 42 sounds to high as most of these engines with modern aluminum heads seem to only need between 32 to about 38. To much in high gear once rolling can actually hurt power some. Many racers would actually retard the timing some in high gear once the cars weight is moving along. As said if you can get the car on a chassis dyno and tune from there it will help a lot as you are definetly missing some power that your eng should be making. As for shift rpm ??? Maybe I am just an old fool but 99% of the time I race I never even look at the tach going down the track. I just shift by how the eng is pulling by the feel of it. When it feels like its done pulling and peeking out I shift. Then I can mess with it some from there but my car is very consistent when I just shift by how the eng sounds and feels to me. And I don't think your shift point is the problem you have. Heck it could be as much as an improperly adjusted throttle cable which I am sure you have checked ? Good luck with it but get it on a chassis dyno and if you have any friends who are very good with hotrods and engines take them with you as the more heads thinking on this can be better to help find the problem. Good luck and keep us posted. Ron


Hey Ron, so this motor with the MW ports and cam keeps revving fast, It will hit the 7k chip really fast in first and second,so much you have to be on your game to grab gears.
I have been shifting it at 6500ish, just to keep the bottom end together longer.
I had a 10.3 second 63 Fury Max wedge car in the 90s that ran similar, that motor was a 13:1 426. It was faster but a lot lighter, and an automatic.
Tonight, I brought another timing light over, it matched the Snap On light. We plugged my old Craftsman in, 4 degrees lower.
I'll drop the coin on a chassis dyno, just to know where everything is at. Getting the AFR with open headers and RPMs it peaks at will be helpful. Thanks for the help!


You REALLY need to address the fuel supply before you hurt it.......... thumbs

My pressure holds rock steady at 6.5 psi, you really think I have a supply problem? Again, I'm all ears, just trying to wrap my head around how that works? It doesn't nose over or anything.

Last edited by 65Fury440; 11/02/18 04:22 PM.
Re: How Much Gain In The Tune Up? [Re: 65Fury440] #2573102
11/02/18 04:43 PM
11/02/18 04:43 PM
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65 it's more than just pressure. You can have pressure and no flow, or very low flow. You need volume at a reasonable pressure. IMO, the lower the pressure you can use and keep the bowls full and as much air out of the fuel as you can the better off you'll be.

I'm in the process of upgrading to bottom feed needle and seats to help eliminate aeration. Every little bit helps.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: How Much Gain In The Tune Up? [Re: madscientist] #2573109
11/02/18 04:58 PM
11/02/18 04:58 PM
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Spring Hill Fl
65Fury440 Offline OP
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Originally Posted By madscientist
65 it's more than just pressure. You can have pressure and no flow, or very low flow. You need volume at a reasonable pressure. IMO, the lower the pressure you can use and keep the bowls full and as much air out of the fuel as you can the better off you'll be.

I'm in the process of upgrading to bottom feed needle and seats to help eliminate aeration. Every little bit helps.



The tap for the pressure gauge is 4" from the fuel inlets, I put new .120 needles and seats in at the beginning of the summer.
I'll watch the float bowl levels on the dyno, good point though.

Dom also suggested knocking the pressure back to 6 lbs so that will happen as well.

Last edited by 65Fury440; 11/02/18 04:59 PM.
Re: How Much Gain In The Tune Up? [Re: 65Fury440] #2573120
11/02/18 05:27 PM
11/02/18 05:27 PM
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So. Burlington, Vt.
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The A/F gauge doesn’t show it leaning out at wot, right?


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: How Much Gain In The Tune Up? [Re: fast68plymouth] #2573126
11/02/18 05:50 PM
11/02/18 05:50 PM
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Spring Hill Fl
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Originally Posted By fast68plymouth
The A/F gauge doesn’t show it leaning out at wot, right?


Negative, it stays in the mid 11s at WOT.
I dont have the AFR when running open headers though.
According to the plugs, I think it is rich everywhere.
Edit- I have 3/8" including the sender to the carb all brand new.

Last edited by 65Fury440; 11/02/18 05:52 PM.
Re: How Much Gain In The Tune Up? [Re: 65Fury440] #2573163
11/02/18 07:06 PM
11/02/18 07:06 PM
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Tulsa OK
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If you are in the mid 11s on AFR i would expect you to gain some power leaning it down into the mid to high 12s. My car likes 13:1 with 91-93 octane E10 fuel. Anything on either side of that and it loses some mph.


68 Barracuda Formula S 340
Re: How Much Gain In The Tune Up? [Re: 65Fury440] #2573165
11/02/18 07:09 PM
11/02/18 07:09 PM
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I’d lean it out some and see if it feels any better.

I’d shoot for mid-12’s as a starting point.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: How Much Gain In The Tune Up? [Re: 65Fury440] #2573183
11/02/18 07:50 PM
11/02/18 07:50 PM
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Early in the thread there was mention of an exhaust, is it for much street use at all? If it is, I'd wonder about the numbers going down the road.

If it needs work in the idle and transtion, myself I would want to start there and then move on to WOT afterwards.

I wouldn't bring it up if I hadn't made the error of too much (actually all) emphasis on wot and letting everything else fall where it may, which although it may have served me well in terms of mph I feel I would have been smarter to have worked on part throttle stuff first since that's where I really spend the majority of my time.




Rich H.

Esse Quam Videri




Re: How Much Gain In The Tune Up? [Re: ZIPPY] #2573199
11/02/18 08:34 PM
11/02/18 08:34 PM
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Spring Hill Fl
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Originally Posted By ZIPPY
Early in the thread there was mention of an exhaust, is it for much street use at all? If it is, I'd wonder about the numbers going down the road.

If it needs work in the idle and transtion, myself I would want to start there and then move on to WOT afterwards.

I wouldn't bring it up if I hadn't made the error of too much (actually all) emphasis on wot and letting everything else fall where it may, which although it may have served me well in terms of mph I feel I would have been smarter to have worked on part throttle stuff first since that's where I really spend the majority of my time.





I had a lil talk with Thumper Dom last night, there are some things I need to check. The tip off idle really gently gets a small lean spot, then its rich. Just driving down the road, it's still pulling high 11s low 12s, It didnt do that before. I believe the T slots on the secondaries could be uncovered too far, or I just need to drop the main jets down a couple more sizes.

The end game is to get a larger carb. I had always heard the 4500s had a better fuel pattern, but, I'm thinking of leaning towards a big 4150.

With the 4 speed, you can put some rpms into it before launch, it might just be better to take the plunge and go Dominator, even though it would cost more to change over.

Hope to hit the Powerball to make things easier.

Re: How Much Gain In The Tune Up? [Re: 65Fury440] #2573206
11/02/18 08:54 PM
11/02/18 08:54 PM
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I guess for me the next logical question is...... is the car legal to run under 11.50, and does that matter where you race?

And...... has the dyno day been scheduled yet?


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: How Much Gain In The Tune Up? [Re: fast68plymouth] #2573222
11/02/18 09:33 PM
11/02/18 09:33 PM
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Spring Hill Fl
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Originally Posted By fast68plymouth
I guess for me the next logical question is...... is the car legal to run under 11.50, and does that matter where you race?

And...... has the dyno day been scheduled yet?


No it is not, it wont be hard to weld a bar onto the subframe connectors though.
On TNT nights, there is no tech at all.

A week from tomorrow for dyno day. Should give some insight.

Got the timing advance limited to 16 degrees today with 20 initial, going to drop the primary jets 2 sizes tomorrow and take it for a ride, play with the 4 corner idle a bit, see if it cleans up a little.

Anything wrong with this timing light?
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ino-3551

Thanks for all your help.

Re: How Much Gain In The Tune Up? [Re: 65Fury440] #2573230
11/02/18 09:47 PM
11/02/18 09:47 PM
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Looks fine to me.

It just needs to not have any delay(dial back) circuitry in it that can be influenced but stray emf stuff going on under the hood.

Do you know what kind of dyno it is?


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: How Much Gain In The Tune Up? [Re: 65Fury440] #2573233
11/02/18 09:53 PM
11/02/18 09:53 PM
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You might want to look at the Flaming River brand stand alone 2 D cell battery powered timing light scope
Sorry I don't have a link for you, I carry one in the race car trailer and use it at the track, I do have older Craftsman dial back in that tool box in the trailer also but I don't use it on any thing with a race type ignition in the car, I've burnt more than one of them up using them on a MSD 7 series race box runaway shruggy


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: How Much Gain In The Tune Up? [Re: 65Fury440] #2573242
11/02/18 10:05 PM
11/02/18 10:05 PM
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Spring Hill Fl
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Cool, it's ordered.

No I did not ask what brand the dyno was. Our conversation was mostly about what their capabilities were with the carb.

The guy who tunes thinks he can get it dialed in pretty quickly, even so, I want larger than the 1.59 venturi 1.75 bore Demon that's on there now.

There are no Mopar shops I know of around FL, hopefully, they can catch something that will make some gains.

Re: How Much Gain In The Tune Up? [Re: 65Fury440] #2573248
11/02/18 10:16 PM
11/02/18 10:16 PM
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I only asked what it was because some brands are known for typically giving higher or lower results.
Which doesn’t really matter as long as it repeats well.

You’re only looking to make the numbers go up........ whatever they are.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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