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Re: Rocker arms; switch to bushings from needle bearings? [Re: gregsdart] #2572504
11/01/18 07:19 AM
11/01/18 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted By gregsdart
I didn't verify the true coilbind for each, as i recall i went to about .070 by the book.
There is no easy way to pressure oil this deal. Jesels are paired on a single solid 5/8 od shaft for each cylinder.

So are my T&D's. Oil goes from the pushrod, through the adjuster, through the rocker, through the bearing.
Doug

Re: Rocker arms; switch to bushings from needle bearings? [Re: dvw] #2572505
11/01/18 08:57 AM
11/01/18 08:57 AM
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Are there any rub marks on the pushrods? Do you run centered or offset lifters? If the pushrods are rubbing they will create side load. If you don't have offset cup lifters I would run them to straighten the pushrods as much as possible.

Re: Rocker arms; switch to bushings from needle bearings? [Re: dvw] #2572564
11/01/18 12:55 PM
11/01/18 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted By dvw
Originally Posted By gregsdart
I didn't verify the true coilbind for each, as i recall i went to about .070 by the book.
There is no easy way to pressure oil this deal. Jesels are paired on a single solid 5/8 od shaft for each cylinder.

So are my T&D's. Oil goes from the pushrod, through the adjuster, through the rocker, through the bearing.
Doug


This is a nice feature the T&D’s have that the Jesel’s don’t.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Rocker arms; switch to bushings from needle bearings? [Re: gregsdart] #2572597
11/01/18 02:32 PM
11/01/18 02:32 PM
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I sure wish i had known about T&D !!!
To anyone following this thread, it may be a long time for various reasons that i can report any progress or testing, maybe spring after i get the car to the track.

Last edited by gregsdart; 11/01/18 02:35 PM.

8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: Rocker arms; switch to bushings from needle bearings? [Re: gregsdart] #2572599
11/01/18 02:38 PM
11/01/18 02:38 PM
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On coil bind in the engine assembly room compared to on the motor warmed up, don't forget about the aluminum head growing taller than the steel valves and steel valve springs work scope shruggy
I know you wanted to throw one more variable into the mix ,HUH whistling
AKA, I hope this helps you scope


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Rocker arms; switch to bushings from needle bearings? [Re: gregsdart] #2572754
11/01/18 08:48 PM
11/01/18 08:48 PM
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Hey Cab, better to be aware than not😳
This has been a good learning experiance.
So if my thinking is right, the installed hieght might shrink by maybe .004? My lash changes .006.
More than once i am very sorry i sold that 475 motor with the hydraulic flat tappet cam! Maintenance schedule; 1 change oil in April. 2, race!

Last edited by gregsdart; 11/01/18 08:53 PM.

8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: Rocker arms; switch to bushings from needle bearings? [Re: gregsdart] #2572761
11/01/18 09:17 PM
11/01/18 09:17 PM
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I guess one question you could ask yourself is....... how much power would I be willing to lose to be able to put 200 passes on the motor and be reasonably sure its not going to break/damage something in the valvetrain?

If the answer is “0”, then you’ll have to keep trying to sort through your issues.

But if the number is something more like 25-50hp, then I think you could scale back pretty far on the cam/spring package and be in that area.

As an example, one of my customers had a 770hp 557 with a .660 roller, 1.5 Crane golds, springs that were 240/550, on SR heads.

After freshening the heads multiple times, when the entire valvetrain had about 1600 passes on it(and everything still looked fine, springs still tested good, etc), I was finally able to get him to replace it all before something broke.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Rocker arms; switch to bushings from needle bearings? [Re: gregsdart] #2572767
11/01/18 09:37 PM
11/01/18 09:37 PM
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FBS, no rub marks on any push rods.
Dwayne, ya, i could back it down, but i have been a somewhat bull headed ET chaser.
If i ever want to do that all i need to do is send my other cam out for a regrind and put a different set of springs in that are on the shelf. If i ever go that route it will be a 10.00 ET combo, 134.9 mph!
I just like to go faster. So i will stay with this setup, check coil bind, and i may pull the 4.56 gears and put in some 4.30s to take some rpm out of the equation. I plan on running a different tire next year, and need to consider that anyway.

Last edited by gregsdart; 11/01/18 09:39 PM.

8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: Rocker arms; switch to bushings from needle bearings? [Re: gregsdart] #2572792
11/01/18 10:38 PM
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Mine has only had springs in the last 300 passes. Comp RX 1718 int lobe, XCX 1862 exh lobe. 2.25" Ferra 6190VB int, 6188 exh, Pac 404 retainer. The Pac 1224 springs I took off (200 passes) tested with-in 2% of the new springs. The old springs actually had the higher pressure. Lash seldom changes more than .001"-.002" on lash checks. Usually 4 valves or less need adjustment. Very bracket friendly. Normal RPM limit 7200.
Doug

Re: Rocker arms; switch to bushings from needle bearings? [Re: fast68plymouth] #2573814
11/04/18 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted By fast68plymouth
I guess one question you could ask yourself is....... how much power would I be willing to lose to be able to put 200 passes on the motor and be reasonably sure its not going to break/damage something in the valvetrain?

If the answer is “0”, then you’ll have to keep trying to sort through your issues.

But if the number is something more like 25-50hp, then I think you could scale back pretty far on the cam/spring package and be in that area.

As an example, one of my customers had a 770hp 557 with a .660 roller, 1.5 Crane golds, springs that were 240/550, on SR heads.

After freshening the heads multiple times, when the entire valvetrain had about 1600 passes on it(and everything still looked fine, springs still tested good, etc), I was finally able to get him to replace it all before something broke.


1600 passes without a breakage.....I need to send you my pile of parts and have you clone that build Dwayne.....Talked to you about the 440-1 heads and T&D rockers a few weeks back. I cant seem to get more than a few hundred on mine and something breaks. Probably like you say with the aggressiveness of the cam.


67 Barracuda street/bracket car 11.27-119
68 Dart 502 BB 8.70s-152
414 cid SB Dragster 7.65-174
Re: Rocker arms; switch to bushings from needle bearings? [Re: gregsdart] #2573915
11/04/18 03:42 PM
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I have a 400 stroker motor, 4.300 stroke, with a set of 440-1 heads with a set of paired shaft Jesel 1.55 ratio not aluminum, (maybe chrome moly steel?) rocker arms. Jesel tech said they don't make any rocker arm with any other material than aluminmum shock shruggy Mine are not aluminum tsk shruggy
I'm using both pushrod and spray bar oiling in it.
It has a custom grind Ultradyne solid roller cam with right at .770 net lift and either 275 Lbs on the seats with 750 lbs. open or 390 lbs. on the seats with 910 lbs. opened confused I did set them up with between .060 to .080 from coil bind on all the springs up My notes show both pressures so I will have to check that and write down the correct numbers on the build sheet realcrazy
This is my first motor with a paired shaft rocker arm system, I haven't ran it yet but it will go in the bracket car this winter luck I'm hoping it is not a part breaker luck

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 11/04/18 03:45 PM.

Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Rocker arms; switch to bushings from needle bearings? [Re: gregsdart] #2573932
11/04/18 04:08 PM
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I've been thinking about this very hard. It's been awhile since I had an issue.

I was running Norris stainless rockers on my W-5 junk and I hurt some bushings and they wore the bushing on the offset. Meaning, they were worn out from the offset. This was single shaft stuff and I was caught by the wear. The lash was changing every time I rolled the engine over and it was because of the odd wear on the bushing.

My first thought was to use a different bushing and get more oil to the rockers. I could have done the bushing myself, but I decided to send them to Rocker Arm Specialties or whatever they called themselves in 1999 or 2000ish.

When they looked over the rockers they called and said there isn't a bushing good enough to take that load with that offset. Essentially, the rocker is being forced against the shaft at the pushrod side. With that, the rocker gets shoved over against the exhaust rocker. And then you get galling, no matter how much clearance between the rockers and how much shaft clearance you have.

The fix for that rocker was RAS milled down both sides of the EXHAUST rockers so I could run a Torrington bearing on both sides of the exhaust rocker. This stopped a considerable amount of binding between the rockers, and it stopped letting the intake rocker only load one side of the rocker on the shaft (I'm saying the rocker was cocking on the shaft at the pushrod side) and the exhaust rocker became a sort of stabilizer for the intake rocker.

I never hurt another set of bushings and the lash was perfect unless some other gremlin ate me up.

I mention this because I don't know if it was here or over on speedtalk someone suggested a flanged bearing for your deal. After thinking about it, that may be an answer. That flange can help support the rocker and not let the rocker try and move away from the offset (hope I said that correctly).


I was using 340 on the seat and about 880-900 over the nose on a single shaft. The cam was a Cam Motion deal that .754/.736 and I was shifting at 8500.

A clanged bearing (if available) may be the answer. I think the rocker is being allowed to cock on the shaft even if the tolerance is very small. Once it gets after the needles and the clearance opens up it aggravates the cocking and goes down the toilet.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: Rocker arms; switch to bushings from needle bearings? [Re: gregsdart] #2574162
11/04/18 11:45 PM
11/04/18 11:45 PM
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I also posted on speedtalk and the bushing material used for EZ roll lifters was mentioned. That is probably a propriatary bronze alloy. Sure would like to find out what they use.


8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: Rocker arms; switch to bushings from needle bearings? [Re: Cab_Burge] #2574278
11/05/18 08:14 AM
11/05/18 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted By Cab_Burge
I have a 400 stroker motor, 4.300 stroke, with a set of 440-1 heads with a set of paired shaft Jesel 1.55 ratio not aluminum, (maybe chrome moly steel?) rocker arms. Jesel tech said they don't make any rocker arm with any other material than aluminmum shock shruggy Mine are not aluminum tsk shruggy
I'm using both pushrod and spray bar oiling in it.
It has a custom grind Ultradyne solid roller cam with right at .770 net lift and either 275 Lbs on the seats with 750 lbs. open or 390 lbs. on the seats with 910 lbs. opened confused I did set them up with between .060 to .080 from coil bind on all the springs up My notes show both pressures so I will have to check that and write down the correct numbers on the build sheet realcrazy
This is my first motor with a paired shaft rocker arm system, I haven't ran it yet but it will go in the bracket car this winter luck I'm hoping it is not a part breaker luck

Cab, i found the only way to catch rocker arm bearing failure early was either visual,(remove rocker from the 5/8 shaft) or turning the rocker a full turn on the shaft to feel if it is somethooth or not.
Keeping a very close eye on lash in my motor is very important, .002 change loose and i will be looking for the problem. Exact same position within about five degrees is a must when checking lash because i see up to .005 lash change due to cam flex.


8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: Rocker arms; switch to bushings from needle bearings? [Re: gregsdart] #2574326
11/05/18 12:25 PM
11/05/18 12:25 PM
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No, I don't know what's happening.
But... any bearing engineer will tell you that a radial needle ("lazy Susan") bearing has only a small fraction of the thrust capacity of a bronze bearing with the same surface area.
Harley-Davidson has been using flanged cam bearings made of 660 bronze for over 80 years.


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Re: Rocker arms; switch to bushings from needle bearings? [Re: gregsdart] #2574726
11/06/18 05:48 AM
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A gentleman that owns the business CHE in cali was kind enough to talk to me about my problem. He developed a proprietary bronze bushing alloy that would stand up to the punishment of bushed, Hemi SS rocker arms, hi hp LS rockers, Isky EZ roll bushings, etc. He uses bar stock to make parts like i would need to bush my Jesel rockers. He mentioned Jesel wasn't interested, even though he has been contacted by Jesel customers that have the same issue as me.
The problem is pressure on the bearing cage,plus a twisting load on a bearing not designed for it. The force from the pushrod is offset outside of the bearings. Just like all materials, all the parts under load compress, maybe ever so slightly, but they have to, or they shatter. Soooo, apply enough shock load, and eventually anything will deform enough to put too much load on one edge, and starts to fail. I see the bearings start to gall the shaft on the outer edge, confirming the twisting diagnosis.
He said i was on the right track using bronze washers between the rockers and the rocker bar to eliminate side loading on the offset intake needle bearing cages.
As for bushings, the special alloy with a wide threaded grove in it to allow oil to enter would work. The problem is, he is swamped with work and a short run of bushings would be quite expensive. So that takes me back to having to use the needle bearings. He did suggest i do two things. Try and fit a wider bearing on the pushrod side of the intake rocker, and groove the washer to allow oil flow to the bearings.
I really appreciate the time he took to help me out. I learned from someone that had solved my very problem exactly what is going on, and what would be needed to step up to a more durable rocker capable of taking more punishment than the rockers can handle as built.
Since a lot of guys are not having the same issues, i pont the finger at having used some brutal cam lobes, maybe not a big enough pushrod, and lifters not up to the loads i threw at them.
The changes since the majority of failures are; new inverted flank cam from Mike Jones. It has very long lash ramps to minimize shock load. EZ roll Isky bushed lifters. 7/16 minimum diameter tool steel pushrods. PAC 1228 springs which provide the same loads as the 948 comps but weigh less and have a higher frequency. Since i don't race a lot, if i can get 75 to 100 runs out of this setup, i will be somewhat OK with running the needle bearings and washer combo. I have been looking for info on this problem for some time, and really appreciate it when someone takes time away from thier swamped business to talk to me!

Last edited by gregsdart; 11/06/18 05:58 AM.

8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: Rocker arms; switch to bushings from needle bearings? [Re: gregsdart] #2574738
11/06/18 09:49 AM
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Did you find out if he has a bushing readily available that can fit your rockers with some minor modifications? Maybe you don't need a full on custom bushing.

Re: Rocker arms; switch to bushings from needle bearings? [Re: gregsdart] #2574746
11/06/18 10:39 AM
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I was hoping he might, but no luck. About my only reasonable cost option would be to see if i could buy some bar stock and find someone that could do it very reasonably, another racer or hobbiest.


8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: Rocker arms; switch to bushings from needle bearings? [Re: gregsdart] #2574765
11/06/18 11:41 AM
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The development of special bronze alloys goes back 500 years (including Defense Dep't. "if you tell anyone what this is, we kill you"). Before engines there were bells and cannon. An example of what standing in the engineering community you would have if you developed your own bronze alloys: think Kettering, Mikoyan, Ricardo. It's a bit easier than developing your own atomic weapon, but not that much. Perhaps he meant "after years of destructive testing, I narrowed it down to the best 100 non-restricted alloys, and this is the cheapest".
{/sarc]

I have no idea how much bending a 1/16" needle (defined as a roller with L/W of 10 or more) will tolerate in that application. But I can tell you it's not much, and making it longer makes it MUCH more fragile.


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Re: Rocker arms; switch to bushings from needle bearings? [Re: gregsdart] #2574791
11/06/18 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted By gregsdart
A gentleman that owns the business CHE in cali was kind enough to talk to me about my problem. He developed a proprietary bronze bushing alloy that would stand up to the punishment of bushed, Hemi SS rocker arms, hi hp LS rockers, Isky EZ roll bushings, etc. He uses bar stock to make parts like i would need to bush my Jesel rockers. He mentioned Jesel wasn't interested, even though he has been contacted by Jesel customers that have the same issue as me.
The problem is pressure on the bearing cage,plus a twisting load on a bearing not designed for it. The force from the pushrod is offset outside of the bearings. Just like all materials, all the parts under load compress, maybe ever so slightly, but they have to, or they shatter. Soooo, apply enough shock load, and eventually anything will deform enough to put too much load on one edge, and starts to fail. I see the bearings start to gall the shaft on the outer edge, confirming the twisting diagnosis.
He said i was on the right track using bronze washers between the rockers and the rocker bar to eliminate side loading on the offset intake needle bearing cages.
As for bushings, the special alloy with a wide threaded grove in it to allow oil to enter would work. The problem is, he is swamped with work and a short run of bushings would be quite expensive. So that takes me back to having to use the needle bearings. He did suggest i do two things. Try and fit a wider bearing on the pushrod side of the intake rocker, and groove the washer to allow oil flow to the bearings.
I really appreciate the time he took to help me out. I learned from someone that had solved my very problem exactly what is going on, and what would be needed to step up to a more durable rocker capable of taking more punishment than the rockers can handle as built.
Since a lot of guys are not having the same issues, i pont the finger at having used some brutal cam lobes, maybe not a big enough pushrod, and lifters not up to the loads i threw at them.
The changes since the majority of failures are; new inverted flank cam from Mike Jones. It has very long lash ramps to minimize shock load. EZ roll Isky bushed lifters. 7/16 minimum diameter tool steel pushrods. PAC 1228 springs which provide the same loads as the 948 comps but weigh less and have a higher frequency. Since i don't race a lot, if i can get 75 to 100 runs out of this setup, i will be somewhat OK with running the needle bearings and washer combo. I have been looking for info on this problem for some time, and really appreciate it when someone takes time away from thier swamped business to talk to me!



I had issues with needle bearing rockers a long time ago and try to not use them any time I can avoid it. And not just on Chrysler stuff. Somewhere around 1986ish I was working on a 377 Chevy with junk stack injection. It was using a single shaft offset rocker system. I can't think of who made the rockers, but they were expensive and had needle bearings.

The guy who actually owned the engine was told by his life long engineer buddy to get rid of the bearings in the rockers but he was the only one saying it.

Needless to say, it didn't take long on the dyno to see power starting to fall and the rockers were loosing their needles.

Ironically enough, this engine was fitted with a Crane inverted radius lobe cam. Of course, the cam took all the blame.

I suspect it was the needles in the rockers didn't like an aggressive lobe (for that era) and we didn't use nearly enough spring load. In two short years I was already using 280-300 on the seat while this engine had 190-200 and everyone and their mother said more spring load will kill the engine on the ride to the dyno.

I'm not quick to blame a cam lobe for a poorly designed rocker. If you can get oil to the bushing, I see no reason to use needle bearings.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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