Broke in today on dyno
Goin for pulls tomorrow


4250 eagle crank
7.1 rods
70 over diamonds
9.5:1 compression
240 trick flows
Sick pack intake
Tti 1 7/8
6 pack
Firecore wires / dizzy
custom mild comp cam
600 lift
Split duration
Hydraulic rollers
1.5 hs rockers


Any Guesses

Losses through stock manifolds Monday or Tuesday

559 hp

Did I read that right. .070 over 440 block.

605 HP, 650 TQ (with headers). I don't think it will like the manifolds.

Lol sleeved

Need real/complete cam specs.

My guess is, it will make peak power right before the valvetrain gets unhappy, unless the duration is really short.

Between 525 and 650 HP, depending on the cam.

You took my guess

With headers it should make easy 575-600 with almost any mild performance cam

With the exh manifolds about 525 to 550. Good luck , Ron

First pull resulted in poor attachment to dyno

Fabricating new mounts ..
may have been tractor supply grade 8

Constantly learning
and regaining common sense . Lol

A fat bar with a couple of holes going to the lug on the right above your mount might help. That would tiie your mount to a second lug.

New mounts fabbed
Uncorrected hp 672
Centers 65
Outboards 89/91 staggered
Time to play with jetting and timing and
Secondary springs

Lean in middle due to six pack bog

Rejetting to 92/94
Keeping timing at 35

Wish i could poke holes in my nice ttis and do individual
EGTs to see if staggered jetting is valid .

I think we got a monster on 90 pump fuel .


Great guys workin with me .. takin a break and
Rejetting .

Watching the outboards open and suckin in 55
degree air is cool .
Stll got 1500 rpm and plenty of adjustments to go

Install aircleaner set up?????

got a chance to talk to dave dudek yesterday at the NMCA race at indy and he showed me a chassis dyno sheet of 699hp at the wheels. i'm impressed about what guys are doing with these old '60's engines.

Well im cheating a little with the trickflows

Regardless
Air cleaner , great idea

Then were doin cast manifolds
With 2 1/2 h pipe .

Did good at 66o hp corrected

Then the builder wants to try 850 quickfuel on
performer intake .

Performer or Performer RPM ?

Will bee interesting to see the difference with HP Manifolds

Very nice. You know you've got nice testing conditions when corrected numbers are lower than actual.

Was the intake manifold modified?

Great results! I was surprised to see the size of the outboard main jets. Those are 10 sizes larger than what my 493 with similar sized cam & Indy EZ's likes according to my wideband. I do run the mechanical DC Holley's.

I bet his are .089" and .091" holes in metering plates. That would be about the same as your jet sizes in metering blocks. Decades ago when I raced with the mechanical carbs at least 4 times a week I had three outer metering blocks with 78, 80,and 82 jets. I could swap them at the track a lot quicker than switching jets. Usually ran 78's and 80's on warm days and 80's and 82's on cold days. 64's or 65's in the center.

I don't know if its the the nature of the 6 pack or just a coincidence, but no matter what I run it on, I'll start with 65 center and 80's outsides. Then when I'm all done I'm usually exactly what you describe, 64/65, and 77/82, and does not seem to matter much if its a 350 hp or 550 hp deal.

Itll all be different when the lid goes on top of the carbs .
. Might be able to jet down
And itll all be different when on the street
We were tuning to get rid of the slight lean at about
3500-4500 when the outboards kicked in .
The fuel urve evened right out . With thicker springs
and fatter jets.
It might be way off for the road ..

We had perfect air
O89 and 91 resemble stock plates
Started there ..
77/82 seems small ..

My pump gas six pack 511 C.I. low deck stroker motor liked .094 fuel inlet size on the driver side outboard plates with .096 on the driver side of the Eddy aluminum dual plane six pack intake using a set of OEM 1970 440 California automatic carbs. modded by C&J Engr. in Whitter, CA
I don't remember those List numbers now though
I had that motor on two different engine dynos and it made peak HP at either 5500 RPM or 5600 RPM with peak torque at 4500 or 4600 RPM . I tested three different sets of carbs on the first test session, That set of modified 1970 carbs., a new set of OEM 1971 440 replacement carbs and a set of the original mechanical carbs as well as several different air cleaner elements as well as stacking two elements on top of each other.
That motor made the most HP and torque with the air cleaner base on and no air cleaner element with the mechanical carbs. There was only 7 HP differences between all three sets of carbs though

Wow, great info you guys! This was back in the day before the non-stick gaskets, nylon bowl washers and widebands too, right?

The Holley jets are not super accurate either. Does anyone make blueprinted Holley jets that actually match the flow of the number stamped on them?

I don't have a heat crossover in my Indy's, have insulating mat between the intake manifold and valley pan and run a Shaker hood. The carbs are still super sensitive to air temperature and heat soak. I can feel significant power loss as heat saturates the intake from heat soak.

I wonder if the same power loss would occur with multi-point EFI?

Do mind sharing the cam card? That’s a bad dude!

No sense of hiding it
Hopefully it can get some critique here
But its tough to compare to a reg solid cam spec
due to the roller part of it . I think - i dont know much about
reading split cam cards and All of the logic behind
it .. and ill effects of this and that .. I guess well just call it the FM cam.
Dont know how , but it works .. lol.

Hopeful its nice on street - it sure idles like
my old bobk cam.



I only got 10-12” of vacuum
But i wasnt tuning for vacuum yet ..

Hopeful i can get it higher with a couple screws .
Some more tweaking coming
I got an H pipe and factory manifolds mounted
On Dyno last night ..

Figures the h pipe was contorted
Needed a bunch of fat guys and a bigass pipe to
twist the collector flange into position ..

But moving along
Will be bad air tonight

Looks like your cam guy has done this before.

It wasnt summit tech support thats for sure
I think the builders had some input , and seem to have a good
relationship with comp.
Even though theyre Not normally MP guys, lol , theyre anal as
heck and have a couple beefy mopars under
their belt . Everything they touch seems to sing pretty well.

Why can I not see a cam card, just see a "empty frame"?

Well it worked pretty good with the Headers but did not like the cast manifolds and 2 1/2 inch exhaust

works fine for me.

Well how bad was it?

Some more tuning could have been had , but three jet
Sizes later , two different sets of mufflers and ..........

We jetted all the way down to 81/83’s and 64’s on center

We lost about 90 hp .. from headers to manifolds And
2 1/2” exhaust with h pipe ..

And .......





We gained torque and about 10 hp with big a12 air cleaner and kn air filter

Since we have trickflows
The car is gonna go together with headers

It will not even try to appear stock
And thats ok ..

I was the assistant

20 HP by adding the air breather
The engine did not like the ex manifolds at all

Yes it's a trade off for certain. But 550-570 is nothing to sneeze at. Anything faster than a 11.50 requires a roll bar. I think a drive anywhere stock appearing automatic a12 with a 3.54 gear that would run 11.50's through the mufflers would be awesome.

Sounds like the headers are an extremely cost effective power upgrade on that combo.



They never do.
Some just dislike them more than others.

650hp in a 4000lb car should be able to run 10.60’s at 124+.

That's awesome power from a relatively mild combination. I just picked up some Tricklow 240s myself so it's cool to see how much power they are capable of. Hard to not use headers when there is that much power left on the table without them...

Curious if different six packs base plates would create different result

Guess were doin it again with headers and hemi muffs .
And baseblate / air cleaner . And black springs
Lookin for 690 ...
still cant believe we gained with Baseplate . Lol

Wow
In the heat of dynoing i really wish we would have done
the air cleaner baseplate last week .
So i did some googling - I guess im not the only one
with different results of torque ..

HR six Pack Dyno

When I tested the 6bbl FAST motors, we always ran with the air filter in place, since that’s how they are run in the car.

On a mild 446 build similar to the one in the link, I tested the filter base with no element or lid, against the complete filter.
The complete filter was down pretty much everywhere.

The bsfc numbers were actually slightly better with the complete filter on, but the power was lower.
With the element and lid installed the motor was using about 10-15lbs/hr less fuel at the upper end of the pull.

These are back to back tests done 4 minutes apart....... never even shut the motor off.

I will have better observations hopefully tomorrow

Aftermarket World/Mopar block. What's the bore?
.070 over?
4.570?
Just trying to guess the actual cubic inch

It's cool if you'd rather not say.....hell of a runner!

4250 stroke / 7.1 rods
Old 90’s 505 crate motor MP performance block
Bores bushed and sleeves installed from MP from new - didnt know til we started
the build, lol. So it allowed for 70 over easily .
I think its 515 ish .
Dished diamond pistons / 9.5 ish compression.
The TF 240’s were an afterthought after reviewing costs.
In pretty sure they cc’d less than my actual 84 cc’d on my 452 castings -
The book shows 78cc on the 240’s.

getting the Cast heads re-ported and flowed to breathe better than before
would have cost more thsn new AL heads that came CNC ported but
I dont believe polished
since i can just barely see my reflection in them, lol.

This was supposed to be a 9:1 motor cast heads to run on watered down gas.
I kind of only originally wanted 550 reliable horse with consistent torque. lol.
I would say I should be able to intimidate hellcats - my post car is only
3800 lbs or less .. So I guess Ill take it .

That's very impressive power for such a street friendly compression pump gas motor.

Couple quick questions:

Was any porting done to the intake manifold? It'd be interesting to see the Six Pack compared to a conventional ported (able to keep up with the heads) Single plane ~950 Holley DP in terms of torque/HP with the trick flows

I'm presuming the cam was targeted for use with Exhaust manifolds and a stock sounding idle? Guessing from the wide 113.5 lobe spread and relatively late intake centerline. Do you have the torque graph from the dyno. What I'm interested in is the torque peak rpm and over how wide an RPM range the motor maintained 95% of peak torque,


Thanks and Congrats!!

It was targetted for stock idle sound , but not
certain if entirely for ex manifolds .. the guys who
put this together may have not enforced that minor detail.
But I cAnnot complain. Ill just run headers on this one ..
i think the next cam will have MORE consideration
for the inneficient exhaust , and thats my next science
experiment to see what comp comes up with and compare..

No mods were done to intake ..
Im not sure if ill leave well enough
alone or get a Hughes prepped intake
Or if Santa Claus is real nice a Wilson .

Ill dig up an intermediate torque curve .
Ill have a binder on results , we probably
have 20 pulls so far.. I hope todays are final.
and Ill have the best results by lunchtime.
Its damp out but chilly . Hopeful the correction
Is minimal on dyno ..

I understand that posting in the race section is not allowed by corner carvers like me as we have no clue how to go fast. That an honest statement based on years of observation on here so don't get your shorts in a wad -a friendly poke is needed here.

After our nite visiting the dyno i gave sogtx a check list of what was wrong with the six pak and where the missing 35 hp is. We will see if they can get the number they want properly.

I identified some fundamental issues with the baseline set up of the six pak that are obviously affecting the pulls. Six paks are a unique beast.

Carbs are over jetted and using old info -staggered jets- without any data to prove the need. The motor never gets a chance to come off from being fat. Secondaries come in way too soon. I am told it ran great with the headers but if you don't understand how it is supposed to run that info don't mean squat. I noticed raw fuel in the intake when we were changing jets.

Engine temp should be 195-200 not 190

The biggest mistake was not baselining the carbs per the guide and 2nd was not running the engine on center carb against the dyno without the secondaries to observe the fuel curve and determine where the power was falling off - now make the secondaries come in before that pt. People do not follow the proper advice, the engine gurus should have read the guide -start with black springs in the secondaries.

I also noticed the the fuel was not just plain 91 octane no ethanol. The afr's required are different betwix gasolines. Look it up. I don't understand the thinking here, who gives a crap how much hp it makes on witches brew.



I am waiting for the results to see what the results of my suggestions are.

Block details

Lol . Dilbert
Patience is a virtue that must be had
We can test on dyno til the cows come home
Somehow , i know itll be a tad different when in
car and all that air is getting pushed through the huge hood scoop
and cats ars suffocating .
Based on numbers something was efficient ..
Id be still happy if we didnt find 35 hp.

But i will prove the 4 barrel people wrong after we switch
Back to headers .

Btw Quad - theres an LS motor ad under your recent post
And dont have a good image of curvd , but heres some data

Re: intake porting

Nothing against Wilson because their results are Epic, but as a potentially lower cost option you may want to consider sending the intake to Larry Smith over at HPEngines.net

Larry has 35+ years of NASCAR experience and built the Dodge motors that went 1-2 at Daytona for Penske. He ported the 337 intake for my 517" low deck. If there's flow and power to be found, Larry's your Huckleberry.

Awesome. The hemi motor mount pad in the other pic kind of jumped out at me lol

That's a 4.50 siamese bore mega block. Just because the casting is the 2468330 M hemi # doesn't make it one. I beleive the mega block wedges as well used that number. The mopar cast above the number tells you it's a 4.5 the standard non siamese water block doesn't have the mopar casting on it but is a 2468330 M block also.

Mike

I’ve tested a few different set ups on my roadrunner. 511ci pump gas motor with Indy SR’s. My six pack ran pretty much identical to a 1050/4150 AN carb on a ported TM6. Both went 10.90’s at 4000# through mufflers. I did tune a dominator (for another car) on the rr. That felt real strong but I don’t have any numbers to back it up. Butt dyno says it had the six pack covered though. Same deal as you, I wanted to prove the six pack could at least run with a well prepped 4150 carb which it did.

I did several different dyno testing sessions om my old pump gas motor on two different dynos, a DTS and the local Studka when it wasn't calibrated correctly.
My message is on MY test on the Studka show 7 HP more with the six pack set up like I ran it on the street and race it with the 3.0 exhaust system corked up, I used a Team G intake with a known good Holley 1050 CFM List # 9375 non HP carb, the torque was exactly the same on most of the same RPMs
I didn't do any testing with the same heads and the different intakes and carbs at the track

I could do this dyno stuff ALL weekend every weekend
Every change is like Christmas morning , lol.
I had to leave - guys are jettin up 1 more size
700 ft lbs and 669 hp is enough to kill me ..

And we had the top corked with the Air cleaner

Thanks to Nick ( JR ) from compuflow ..
the knife edged Eagle lightened crank really spins up quick
Ill have better data for show next week .
Ill change this post title to how to get 100+ unanticipated horse
and too much torque ..

Is this with Headers ?

Yes ..

Wow, this is very timely for me as I'm helping my brother in-law with his engine. It's a 507 C.I. RB, 4.25 arm, 7.100 h-beam rods with the 240 TF heads, Icon 842's, Lunati solid roller 260 @ .050, 600" lift. and using the aluminum 6 pack. It's going in a '70 Road Runner with a 727. It's really cool to see a similar combination and to have a rough idea on what to expect. Your engine is a beast and we'll be pleased to get in the same neighborhood as yours. I also noticed that you have a Sublime GTX as your avatar and his RR is Sublime as well. Kinda freaky the similarities!