Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!!
#254881
03/15/09 07:41 PM
03/15/09 07:41 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,327 Glendale, AZ
69L78Nova
OP
Banned. Forever.
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OP
Banned. Forever.
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,327
Glendale, AZ
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Took the 68 Barracuda to the track today. Something isnt right. The basics of the combo are a 360, Edelbrock RPM 65cc heads (OOTB), 11.2:1, 292/509 cam, Weiand X-celerator, 750DP, Hooker 1 5/8" headers, 2 1/2" exhaust, Holley Blue pump (still running 5/16" line), 4-speed, 4.10 SG on 275/60-15DR's. The car was hooking fine launching at 4800 rpm. Ill list the details of the timeslip below...
60'---1.841 330'---5.374 1/8---8.408 1/8 MPH---82.98 1000'---10.912 1000' MPH---95.00 1/4 ET---13.125 1/4 MPH---106.03
That was the best run of the day. I made a total of 6 passes and each one got slower and slower. The only thing I changed was I went from a Action Plus to the X-celerator manifold, and installed a new timing set. It sounds like a stupid question, but could I have installed the timing set a tooth off or something or could it be running out of fuel on the top end because of the 5/16" line? It has 3-5in of vacuum at 900-1000rpm. It just seems lazy. It wont even break the tires loose in first gear on the street. Anyone have any ideas? I figured this thing would run way better than what it did.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!!
[Re: Posest]
#254886
03/15/09 09:00 PM
03/15/09 09:00 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506 Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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You can cut the timing back 3-4 degrees, but it's not gonna help you out much. You need atleast a 3/8" fuel line - and thats out of the tank. To run in the low to mid 12"s, which is where you should be running, your fuel pump should be able to fill a one gallon can in about 30 seconds - minimum - and thats measured from where the fuel line connects to the carb. Forget what the pump MFG. tells you. You need to actually check it to be sure. Your 60 foot times are off about a tenth and 1/2 also, indicating you have a traction problem.
Fastest 300
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!!
[Re: Crizila]
#254887
03/15/09 09:05 PM
03/15/09 09:05 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506 Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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You also have engine issues with only 3-5 " of vacuum at idle. You should have atleast 12" @ idle with your combo. Sounds like you have a pretty hefty vacuum leak somewhere.
Fastest 300
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!!
[Re: Crizila]
#254888
03/15/09 09:10 PM
03/15/09 09:10 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,819 Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,819
Kirkland, Washington
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Quote:
You can cut the timing back 3-4 degrees, but it's not gonna help you out much. You need atleast a 3/8" fuel line - and thats out of the tank. To run in the low to mid 12"s, which is where you should be running, your fuel pump should be able to fill a one gallon can in about 30 seconds - minimum - and thats measured from where the fuel line connects to the carb. Forget what the pump MFG. tells you. You need to actually check it to be sure. Your 60 foot times are off about a tenth and 1/2 also, indicating you have a traction problem.
He has a traction problem alright! He states above that he can't even break em loose in first on the street! The fuel line is the last of his worries. Degree/advance the cam, make sure no vacuum leak.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!!
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#254890
03/15/09 09:38 PM
03/15/09 09:38 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,819 Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,819
Kirkland, Washington
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Quote:
Just checked vacuum at idle again. Was around 3-4in at 900rpm. Cranking compression was 140 across all 8
Do you know what your vacuum was BEFORE the timing chain swap???
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!!
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#254892
03/15/09 09:41 PM
03/15/09 09:41 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759 So Cal
HealthServices
Why would you even post that?
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Why would you even post that?
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
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Quote:
Quote:
You can cut the timing back 3-4 degrees, but it's not gonna help you out much. You need atleast a 3/8" fuel line - and thats out of the tank. To run in the low to mid 12"s, which is where you should be running, your fuel pump should be able to fill a one gallon can in about 30 seconds - minimum - and thats measured from where the fuel line connects to the carb. Forget what the pump MFG. tells you. You need to actually check it to be sure. Your 60 foot times are off about a tenth and 1/2 also, indicating you have a traction problem.
He has a traction problem alright! He states above that he can't even break em loose in first on the street! The fuel line is the last of his worries. Degree/advance the cam, make sure no vacuum leak.
I agree, check for vauum leaks, and degree cam.
Allen
Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first.
Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!!
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#254893
03/15/09 09:44 PM
03/15/09 09:44 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759 So Cal
HealthServices
Why would you even post that?
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Why would you even post that?
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
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Quote:
The only thing I changed was I went from a Action Plus to the X-celerator manifold, and installed a new timing set.
Some gear sets have been known to be drilled incorrectly.
You never mention what you ran before.
Is it possible you bent a valve, changing the timing set? Did you turn the crank when the cam gear was off?
Last edited by HealthServices; 03/15/09 09:46 PM.
Allen
Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first.
Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: ph23vo]
#254898
03/15/09 11:31 PM
03/15/09 11:31 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716 Baltimore/Denver
64Post
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master
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Baltimore/Denver
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I'm running a 260/266 @ .050" cam and I've got 6 1/2" of vac. As mentioned, I'd degree the cam first [ EDIT: set the timing] then check for vac leaks.
Last edited by 64Post; 03/15/09 11:54 PM.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#254900
03/16/09 12:24 AM
03/16/09 12:24 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759 So Cal
HealthServices
Why would you even post that?
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Why would you even post that?
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
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After you get the cam gear straighten out, do a leak down. Just to make sure you did not kiss a valve in the past.
Allen
Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first.
Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#254901
03/16/09 07:05 AM
03/16/09 07:05 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200 Upper Midwest
MoparforLife
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200
Upper Midwest
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Quote:
I dont get where the vacuum leak would be coming from though. I have had two different intake manifolds on here. I forgot to add I am still running the stock stamped steel rocker arms. I figured Id throw that in as well
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!!
[Re: Crizila]
#254902
03/16/09 09:58 AM
03/16/09 09:58 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
You can cut the timing back 3-4 degrees, but it's not gonna help you out much. You need atleast a 3/8" fuel line - and thats out of the tank. To run in the low to mid 12"s, which is where you should be running, your fuel pump should be able to fill a one gallon can in about 30 seconds - minimum - and thats measured from where the fuel line connects to the carb. Forget what the pump MFG. tells you. You need to actually check it to be sure. Your 60 foot times are off about a tenth and 1/2 also, indicating you have a traction problem.
You don't need a 3/8 line, I've seen and driven 11 second cars w/ 5/16 line and a mechanical pump. Check your plugs and see if you are running lean. You might back the timing down a hair. What jets are your running? And drag radials aren't going to hook as well as real slicks I don't care what anybody says.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!!
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#254904
03/16/09 11:21 AM
03/16/09 11:21 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506 Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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Interesting thread. Lotta experts here. I didn't say he didn't have a timing problem. I said cutting it back 3-4 degrees wasn't going to solve his problem. Neither is degreeing in his cam - if his marks are lined up correctly. His problems are much bigger than 3-4 degrees in ignition or cam timing. If he doesn't have a fuel delivery problem now, he definately will when/if he gets his "other problem(s)" sorted out. And speaking of fuel, we just got a lot more to feed this thread - "used cam". Gee, I wonder if that's when his problems started??? "140 psi cranking compression" - A tired 8:1 360 motor will deliver 20 PSI more than that - unless of course the cam timing is off, he only let it register one pump, cranking speed was 300 rpm, etc, etc, etc. " timing marks won't line up - off 1/2 tooth" - Pretty remote guess that the gears are miss-marked. R-U sure you are lining up the "0's" and not any other marks (advanced / retard marks) on the gears?? Here is a good tip: Go back to the last thing you changed that made the car have 3-5" of vacuum at idle and you will find your problem!
Fastest 300
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!!
[Re: Crizila]
#254905
03/16/09 12:09 PM
03/16/09 12:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
Interesting thread. Lotta experts here. I didn't say he didn't have a timing problem. I said cutting it back 3-4 degrees wasn't going to solve his problem. Neither is degreeing in his cam - if his marks are lined up correctly. His problems are much bigger than 3-4 degrees in ignition or cam timing. If he doesn't have a fuel delivery problem now, he definately will when/if he gets his "other problem(s)" sorted out. And speaking of fuel, we just got a lot more to feed this thread - "used cam". Gee, I wonder if that's when his problems started??? "140 psi cranking compression" - A tired 8:1 360 motor will deliver 20 PSI more than that - unless of course the cam timing is off, he only let it register one pump, cranking speed was 300 rpm, etc, etc, etc. " timing marks won't line up - off 1/2 tooth" - Pretty remote guess that the gears are miss-marked. R-U sure you are lining up the "0's" and not any other marks (advanced / retard marks) on the gears?? Here is a good tip: Go back to the last thing you changed that made the car have 3-5" of vacuum at idle and you will find your problem!
Agree a low compression engine + a 509 cam = dog out of the gate.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: 64Post]
#254908
03/16/09 07:49 PM
03/16/09 07:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,084 Indiana
W5Duster436
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,084
Indiana
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Quote:
I'm running a 260/266 @ .050" cam and I've got 6 1/2" of vac.
As mentioned, I'd degree the cam first [ EDIT: set the timing] then check for vac leaks.
Mine isn't much better but I pull 6" with a 275/275 @.050 solid and that's with initial timing at 20 BTDC. I have the same problem right now too in the fact that mine doesn't seem to want to pull much past 6800 and should hit 7k immediately. Hope you have good luck with it.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: W5Duster436]
#254912
03/16/09 09:23 PM
03/16/09 09:23 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716 Baltimore/Denver
64Post
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716
Baltimore/Denver
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm running a 260/266 @ .050" cam and I've got 6 1/2" of vac.
As mentioned, I'd degree the cam first [ EDIT: set the timing] then check for vac leaks.
Mine isn't much better but I pull 6" with a 275/275 @.050 solid and that's with initial timing at 20 BTDC. I have the same problem right now too in the fact that mine doesn't seem to want to pull much past 6800 and should hit 7k immediately. Hope you have good luck with it.
You could have a fuel delivery problem. If you have enough head on it to use that cam, it shouldn't nose over.
I'm running 24* initial just to get off the transition circuit onto the idle circuit and I'm still running rich. It's a fairly new motor but I think I hit 6500 a few times last summer. Mine ought to spin up to 7K as well.
I had as much bad luck as a guy could have putting this one together. It fought us every step of the way. How 'bout it Lyle? I mean really, when was the last time you've seen a core shifted cam??
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: 64Post]
#254913
03/16/09 09:47 PM
03/16/09 09:47 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716 Baltimore/Denver
64Post
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Baltimore/Denver
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Plug the numbers into an online calculator and solve for theoretical static, cranking and dynamic compression; If you have them that is.
Last edited by 64Post; 03/16/09 09:47 PM.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!!
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#254916
03/17/09 08:20 AM
03/17/09 08:20 AM
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,396 Mass
dgc333
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,396
Mass
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Quote:
Its not a low compression engine. Its 11.26 to 1. The compression test was done with 5 hits on the gauge, all plugs removed. From the day this motor was built, it never had any vacuum at idle, and always ran like a rat.
Not that its going to solve all of your problem but; How do you know your compression is 11.26:1?
I just did a quick calculation assuming flat top pistons at zero deck that have 5cc reliefs. A typical 0.039" thick compressed head gasket with a 4.150 bore and the edelbrock 65cc heads.
This claculates to 10.5:1. Did you cc the heads? they could be bigger and where are the pistons in relation to the deck? If the heads have bigger than advertised chambers or the pistons are below the deck you could very easily be down in the 9's on compression. To get the advertised compression of almost all pistons on the market for a 360 will require the deck of the block to be machined quite a bit.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!!
[Re: dgc333]
#254918
03/17/09 11:10 AM
03/17/09 11:10 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 731 Aurora Colorado
BELVEDERE67
mopar addict
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mopar addict
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 731
Aurora Colorado
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Seems as tho that vacuum reading is where this issue is. But there are many reasons that it might be low. Since you changed the manifold, I'd go there. I agree that a 4 degree change in timing will not change much but the timing chain "line up" issue does need to be changed. You are going to have to open it up to check all these items. Pull the manifold and ck for leaks, check cam for wear (possible lobe going away). Redo the timing chain or get a new one and degreee cam. Put it back together and run again. Fuel line is ok but make sure that your fuel pump is up to par. These are difficult things to check but all must be done. There is not enough vacuum and you need to check why. The fact that the car got slower as the day went on does point to an issue. I should be running better and winding up better that it is. There is alot to check but if you want to solve the issue I don't really see another way. I helped 64Post with his issues and we are still chasing the problems. Just my
Last edited by BELVEDERE67; 03/17/09 11:16 AM.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: BELVEDERE67]
#254919
03/17/09 12:01 PM
03/17/09 12:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,470 renton, Washington
ph23vo
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,470
renton, Washington
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also my car liked 28 degrees of initial timing that was with a 288-530 GK solid cam, stock oem longblock 68 barracuda had LD340, 750 DP, stock manifolds [original exh system still on car], stock aircleaner, street tires [F 70 14], stock converter, 4;56 gears, stock weight ran hi 12,s@ 108..13.2 103 with 3;23 gears... dan
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: Crizila]
#254920
03/17/09 12:28 PM
03/17/09 12:28 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716 Baltimore/Denver
64Post
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716
Baltimore/Denver
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Quote:
Cranking ( dynamic) compression pressure is way too low for that cam. Should be in the 180psi range. Not likely your C.R.is 11.26:1. This would explain poor vacuum and soft bottom end while still having a decent speed - 106mph. The slugs are probably .015 - .020" down in the holes. BTW, most reputable cam Mfg's will give you a suggested dynamic compression pressure for a particular cam. It is much more important than the static number - but much less impressive
That's why I suggested getting all 3 compression numbers.
Cranking CR should fall within a certain range if all of the factors are known. If it's low, it suggests other problems -- one of them being incorrectly calc'd static CR. Worn rings and an incorrectly installed cam are some others.
Dynamic CR will always be lower than static CR as it's based on the intake valve closing point. It's conceivable that the OP has a DCR of 6.5:1. That's not going to get it at the track.
My point being that even if the OP re-starts the process back at the cam the end results could still be the same -- a general lack of compression. I'd like to see all numbers work out to a decent CR. His SCR has got be off by a good 1.0-1.5, IMO. Plus, if the intake valve is closing late to being off a tooth that compounds the problem. So there might be a combination of issues going on here.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: 64Post]
#254921
03/17/09 02:42 PM
03/17/09 02:42 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506 Az
Crizila
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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Well, I suggest you fix the obvious problems first. The 5/16" fuel line you are running is too small. That blue Holley pump you are using has a 3/8" NPT on the "in" and "out" for a reason. I'm not sure what a decent CR means, but with that cam ( it is an older grind ), you my very well not be able to run todays pump gas by the time you get the DCR where it should be to make power in the 3-4 grand area.
Fastest 300
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#254923
03/17/09 02:57 PM
03/17/09 02:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,084 Indiana
W5Duster436
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,084
Indiana
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Just curious, were the compression tests that yielded 140 done with the carb open or closed? I can see the 140 if the throttle was not strung open.
'70 Duster - SDSS 436 W5 4spd (Gone) '71 Dodge D100 '70 Dodge W100
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#254924
03/17/09 03:00 PM
03/17/09 03:00 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716 Baltimore/Denver
64Post
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
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Baltimore/Denver
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Quote:
"The 5/16" fuel line you are running is too small" I'll say it again your fuel line is fine. You can run 11's w/ a 5/16 ine and mech pump...even w/ a 440-6 in a B-body. If it's fuel issue you either have a clogged filter or you car is lean. changing the line to 3/8 won't do squat.
I agree. I'm running a 450" B engine with CNC Eddys, a big solid cam a 950 HP with a 5/16 fuel line. Fuel delivery is not a problem.
Quote:
If you have 140 across the borad you have a compression problem...either your valves are a tad open or you don't have the 11:1 you thought you had.
Also agree.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: 64Post]
#254926
03/17/09 05:14 PM
03/17/09 05:14 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506 Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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Straight from a very well known carb MFG. " When your car isn't performing, alswys carry out the gas can test first - it's one of the least expensive diagnostic aids you will encuonter. Keep in mind that valve springs, ignition systems, torque convertors, even engines have been changed, when all the time the fuel system was at fault". I give on the line size ( but it's too small ) - if you wanna run in the 12's, your gonna have to fill a 1 gallon can in 35 seconds or less - from Barry Grant, Holley, and others. If you can do it with a 5/16" line, God bless you! Hope everyone remembers this thread when there motor goes lean through the second MPH lights and sections of the top ring lands on their hypereutectic pistons start exiting out their collectors! Been there - done that!!!!!! Here is a web sight with a ton of really good on line calculators: http://www.csgnetwork.com/compcalc.html
Fastest 300
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: Crizila]
#254927
03/17/09 05:32 PM
03/17/09 05:32 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675 Columbia, CT
moper
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
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I've also supported 550hp with a factory mechanical and 5/16 line. Many lines now have kinks and guy dont cut them properly so the flow is much lower than it should be. That fact is, overkill sells, and in many cases, meaning a car that runs in the 12s or high 11s, they simply dont need that much pump or line. In somecases, you add so much volume in the line the milder pumps have trouble pumping against the inertia of the fuel in the line in first gear.
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: moper]
#254928
03/17/09 06:51 PM
03/17/09 06:51 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506 Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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overkill = cheap security. If you are pushing the edges of the envelope, you will only go lean once! Could I see a show of hands of those on this thread that even have a fuel pressure guage in their car?
Fastest 300
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: HealthServices]
#254932
03/17/09 11:11 PM
03/17/09 11:11 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716 Baltimore/Denver
64Post
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
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Baltimore/Denver
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Quote:
Quote:
overkill = cheap security. If you are pushing the edges of the envelope, you will only go lean once! Could I see a show of hands of those on this thread that even have a fuel pressure guage in their car?
for two cars
Dude, is that Hitler, or what???
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#254934
03/17/09 11:27 PM
03/17/09 11:27 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716 Baltimore/Denver
64Post
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
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Baltimore/Denver
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Quote:
Theyre not flat tops. They have a .050" quench dome, and a .039" head gasket, sitting .009 in the hole...with a .050" recess machined in the chamber
So do you have all the piston numbers to run the calcs (dome volume, valve reliefs, chamber volume, etc.) starting with the static CR? Cam card?
You can also work backwards using your known cranking pressure of 140# to come up with a theoretical static CR.
I'm at a loss to explain how a small fuel line effects cranking compression readings. Unless of course the motor already went lean and pinged itself on to life support.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: moper]
#254935
03/17/09 11:31 PM
03/17/09 11:31 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716 Baltimore/Denver
64Post
master
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master
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Posts: 8,716
Baltimore/Denver
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Quote:
I've also supported 550hp with a factory mechanical and 5/16 line. Many lines now have kinks and guy dont cut them properly so the flow is much lower than it should be. That fact is, overkill sells, and in many cases, meaning a car that runs in the 12s or high 11s, they simply dont need that much pump or line. In somecases, you add so much volume in the line the milder pumps have trouble pumping against the inertia of the fuel in the line in first gear.
There have been many threads on that subject. There is also the matter of friction loss in the lines. The more pressure you force through the line the higher the friction loss.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#254939
03/18/09 12:26 AM
03/18/09 12:26 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759 So Cal
HealthServices
Why would you even post that?
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Why would you even post that?
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
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So you checked preload and adjusted it by using shims?
Allen
Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first.
Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: HealthServices]
#254940
03/18/09 12:28 AM
03/18/09 12:28 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,826 las vegas
70AARcuda
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,826
las vegas
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you can run the stock non adjustable rockers with the eddy heads with a hydraulic cam...
been there...done that...
Tony
70 AARCuda Vitamin C 71 Dart Swinger 360 10.318 @ 128.22(10-04-14 Bakersfield) 71 Demon 360 10.666 @122.41 (01-29-17 @ Las Vegas) 71 Duster 408 (10.29 @ 127.86 3/16/19 Las Vegas)
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: 70AARcuda]
#254941
03/18/09 12:31 AM
03/18/09 12:31 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759 So Cal
HealthServices
Why would you even post that?
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Why would you even post that?
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
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Sorry, not aware you could do that. I'll have to do a search on how you guys do preload then. I've always check the geometry, adjusted the pushrod length accordingly, and used adjustable rockers to set preload.
Last edited by HealthServices; 03/18/09 12:36 AM.
Allen
Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first.
Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: HealthServices]
#254942
03/18/09 12:31 AM
03/18/09 12:31 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,327 Glendale, AZ
69L78Nova
OP
Banned. Forever.
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OP
Banned. Forever.
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,327
Glendale, AZ
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Quote:
So you checked preload and adjusted it by using shims?
No. I just bolted them down.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: HealthServices]
#254943
03/18/09 12:41 AM
03/18/09 12:41 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716 Baltimore/Denver
64Post
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716
Baltimore/Denver
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Quote:
I've always check the geometry, adjusted the pushrod length accordingly, and used adjustable rockers to set preload.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#254944
03/18/09 12:53 AM
03/18/09 12:53 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716 Baltimore/Denver
64Post
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716
Baltimore/Denver
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Quote:
Im working on getting a degree wheel. But heres another "long shot". Edelbrock recommends the use of adjusteble rocker arms when using cams with a greater-than-stock lift. There has to be a reason for this. Since Im running the MP509, is it possible the rocker stands themselves might not be machined at the same height as say a stock cast iron head, therefore causing the valves to "hang open"? Much like a Chevy with the rockers adjusted too tight? I do have experience with that scenario and the effect is great. I should have a degree wheel tomorrow and Ill take a crack at it.
But who here thinks I could benefit from an adjustable rocker setup? Id like to rule that out as a possibility as well. I appreciate all of the replies. Its all very interesting. I just hope I can get to the bottom of this.
Might be a "short shot" after all. Don't touch anything yet. Start by pulling the rocker covers. There are several ways to check for this issue. Compressed air into the cylinder via the spark plug hole being the easiest. Bring no. 1 up to TDC on the compression stroke and hit it with 100 psi of air. If it's leaking you'll hear it.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#254946
03/18/09 08:29 AM
03/18/09 08:29 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
The engine wouldnt have to be running for an accurate test? I mean so the lifters would be completely pumped up
your lifters should still be pumped up, they don't go flat when you shut the engine off. The forced air method is a great way to tell if everything is right. This is how I learned I burned up #3 in a S/C'd 440. You'll here the air blowing into the block if you have a leak. Have you puled the cover and slowly turned the engine over watching each valve open and close? I mean the car is running, you did pull 106mph, which isn't bad for your set-up. How is your carb set-up?
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#254947
03/18/09 09:52 AM
03/18/09 09:52 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506 Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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Rocker shaft stands will be the same height for both Eddy and cast iron heads. Yes, you can use the stock non-adjustable rockers and push rods with your cam, but the rocker arm geometry will be slightly screwed up. Shiming the shafts might fix it. As long as you have some lifter perload without bottoming the lifters out ( highly unlikely you will do that ) things will work. Also highly unlikely you have burned / bent valves when you ran 106 - and the compression is the same ( although low )accross the board. Used cam::: Did you verify it is what the seller said it is? Did you check part numbers / mike the lobes, or at least eye-ball them and the lifters when you changed manifolds?
Fastest 300
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#254949
03/18/09 10:42 AM
03/18/09 10:42 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
The rocker arm geometry will be screwed up in what way? I did verify it was the .509 when I got the cam. I did mic the lobes
yeah I know plenty of folks running e-haeds and using stock valve train....
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#254951
03/18/09 10:54 AM
03/18/09 10:54 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
Ok, but how will the geometry be screwed up?
I don't know how it would be. It's not like you have switched to those "chevy style" heads.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!!
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#254952
03/18/09 11:17 AM
03/18/09 11:17 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506 Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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If you are not sure where you are at with your carb, give me the list number on the choke tower ( probably 4779-something ) and I will be happy to give you the particulars on it - as it came from Holley. This would be a good starting point for you and eliminate the carb as your problem.
Fastest 300
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!!
[Re: Crizila]
#254955
03/18/09 12:04 PM
03/18/09 12:04 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675 Columbia, CT
moper
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
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On shaft rockers, the only thing that will affect geometry is the valve job. Factory Edelbrock valve jobs are.. less than satisfactory for my taste. I have the heads corrected and they usually find issues. Cri - not only do I have fuel presure gages, I gots the Snap On top of the line diagnostic ones AND know how to read them . Not the questionable Auto Meter ones. I do so when I set up fuel ssytems, tune NOS systems, have a no start on EFI, or when I believe there is a fuel problem. I dont beleive there is in this case.
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!!
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#254956
03/18/09 12:06 PM
03/18/09 12:06 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506 Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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If it's a 4779 with no numbers after that it's the first version of that carb - they have since made a -1,-2,-3,-4. That don't make your carb bad though. Specs: Mod. 4150, 750CFM, pri jets = 75, sec jets = 76, power valve = 8.5 ( BTW, @ 3-5" yours is open ( dumping fuel )all the time - not good, and a contributing factor to your other problems. ), pri discharge nozzle = .025, sec discharge nozzle = .032, square carb with all 4 holes @ 1 11/16" dia. Thatil be $5!
Fastest 300
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!!
[Re: moper]
#254959
03/18/09 12:24 PM
03/18/09 12:24 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506 Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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Incorrect moper. A cam with a different base circle diameter will change the valve train geometry. So will head milling, blocking decking, head gasket thickness, etc. Running too small a fuel line won't affect it though.
Fastest 300
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!!
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#254960
03/18/09 12:27 PM
03/18/09 12:27 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
Whoops! Mine is a -2
-2 has 70-80 and 6.5PV stock...still dumping gas. Try and get 6-7lbs of vacuum if you can. Then you might could run a 4.5PV. I'd also go up on the jets too. I ran 74-82's in a mild 340 w/ a 750DP
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: Crizila]
#254961
03/18/09 12:35 PM
03/18/09 12:35 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716 Baltimore/Denver
64Post
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716
Baltimore/Denver
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Quote:
power valve = 8.5 ( BTW, @ 3-5" yours is open ( dumping fuel )all the time - not good, and a contributing factor to your other problems...
Yeah... and one of the other problems is he may have washed out the rings -- hence his poor cranking pressure.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: 64Post]
#254962
03/18/09 12:38 PM
03/18/09 12:38 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
Quote:
power valve = 8.5 ( BTW, @ 3-5" yours is open ( dumping fuel )all the time - not good, and a contributing factor to your other problems...
Yeah... and one of the other problems is he may have washed out the rings -- hence his poor cranking pressure.
Ding ding ding...winner That can happen. Does your oild smell like gas, or has it ever?
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!!
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#254967
03/18/09 01:21 PM
03/18/09 01:21 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506 Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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-2 version : Pri jets = 70, sec jets = 80, Power valve = 6.5, Pri nozzle = .028, sec nozzle = .031. All else the same.
Fastest 300
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!!
[Re: Crizila]
#254968
03/18/09 01:26 PM
03/18/09 01:26 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506 Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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Put the carb back to stock specs and don't screw with it for now.
Fastest 300
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#254969
03/18/09 01:28 PM
03/18/09 01:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
No, just rebuilt it. Has 74/77 jets in it. I have a 61-99 jet kit, but I guess with the low vacuum it would be hard to tune correctly
I'd go up on the jets...have you tweaked it w/ a vacuum gauge? and yeah you need to get the right PV in to tune it. I bet if you could get the vacuum up, went with a 4.0 PV and upped you jets you'd pick up on the low end, thus netting better et and w/ the extra jetting in the secondaries pick up a little up top as well. Anybody know how low PV's go? I think the lowest I've ever used was 4.5
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#254971
03/18/09 01:42 PM
03/18/09 01:42 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506 Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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Don't cover up existing problems by screwing with the carb. It will just compound your problems. I doubt you washed down the walls so bad that you cashed the rings. I would do a leak down test though. I'm sure one of the guys running a 5/16" fuel line on their drag machine has one lying around you could borrow. Assume you are running a PCV system to keep the crankcase in negative pressure at idle?? Is it working? The idle rpm should drop about 50rpm when you plug it off. How does the breather vent hose look on the inside? Should be dry. If its dripping with oil thats a sign of excessive blow by. So is lots of oil leaks??
Fastest 300
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: Crizila]
#254972
03/18/09 02:25 PM
03/18/09 02:25 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506 Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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Dispite everyones "expert" input on this thread, try to stay focused on your known problems - Can't get cam timing marks to line up ( a biggie and should be #1 on your adgenda to fix.), low cranking compression - which could quite possibly go away once you get the cam timed properly. Forget trying to degree in the cam for now. You can't do it until you get the marks to line up anyway.
Fastest 300
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!!
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#254973
03/18/09 02:34 PM
03/18/09 02:34 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759 So Cal
HealthServices
Why would you even post that?
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Why would you even post that?
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
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Just to let you know we are just going by the info you have given us and assuming a lot. At least I am.
Because there is no video of your run for us to critique, we are assuming you can launch and shift. 1/2 a second or more can be made up with a good launch and proper shifting. Yes, not all of us are as quick as Ronnie Sox when it comes to shifting.
I do think you should not have such a low vacuum though and do think getting that back will help ET somewhat. The low cranking compression is also something that's not the norm.
You never mention if the car ran better in the past.
Allen
Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first.
Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: Crizila]
#254974
03/18/09 02:40 PM
03/18/09 02:40 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716 Baltimore/Denver
64Post
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716
Baltimore/Denver
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Quote:
Dispite everyones "expert" input on this thread, try to stay focused on your known problems
You're right. Too many cooks in the kitchen. I'll bow out since I got in late. I'll just be an observer from now on as I'd like to see how it turns out.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!!!
[Re: Crizila]
#254976
03/18/09 05:52 PM
03/18/09 05:52 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675 Columbia, CT
moper
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
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Quote:
Incorrect moper. A cam with a different base circle diameter will change the valve train geometry. So will head milling, blocking decking, head gasket thickness, etc. Running too small a fuel line won't affect it though.
I'd like to hear how you figure that.
I understand things differently... let me try and explain what I know believe to be true. Rocker geometry is the relationship of the fulcrum point, or pivot point which is the centerline of the shaft in a Mopar, to the arc created as the rocker tip travels. On a factory shaft system, the only variables are the saddles, which are tough to but not impossible to be messed up... or the valve seat depth and the resulting effective lengthening of the valve stem and tip, which affects where the tip of the valve is at rest (closed). You can take a stock head and block, mill .300", .050", or 3" off them, and you will have only made the effective length of the pushrods shorter. You have not changed anything in the rocker and valve tip relationship. The sweep will always be unchanged by any of those. A smaller base circle cam, milled deck, or milled heads or lifter design directly affect the pushrod length you need. The single biggest issue with geometry problems an mopars is bad valve jobs where the seats are sunk making the valves too long unless the stems are trimmed a like amount to reset the height. A good shop, with a modern seat milling center, makes that as easy as reading the indicator when the seats are cut.
edit: I would second the leakdown. And degree the cam...
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: moper]
#254977
03/18/09 06:37 PM
03/18/09 06:37 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716 Baltimore/Denver
64Post
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716
Baltimore/Denver
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Quote:
Quote:
Incorrect moper. A cam with a different base circle diameter will change the valve train geometry. So will head milling, blocking decking, head gasket thickness, etc.
I'd like to hear how you figure that.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: 64Post]
#254978
03/18/09 06:55 PM
03/18/09 06:55 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Incorrect moper. A cam with a different base circle diameter will change the valve train geometry. So will head milling, blocking decking, head gasket thickness, etc.
I'd like to hear how you figure that.
I think the main isue w. milling, cutting, decking is you might need to shim the shafts or use adjustable push rods. I had a set of 915's cut way back when and used a set of thin head gaskets (and got the intake cut to match) I was gonna use adjustable push rods but they was $$$$ so I shimmed the shafts and it ran killer. built 383 spun it to 7200 every weekend. zippy problems.
I think (and I'm just a weekend warrior) he has 2 issues, I do think his carb needs a good tuning and double check that cam and t-chain. Since you got the front of the motor apart it should be pretty easy. Like I said way back 106 is about right, your et is off and your 60, 100 foot is off. You'll get it right. Try this..remove the rocker shafts and do a compression test. If you have 140 again you know you have a ring problem or just low compression, in that case get a different cam, if it goes up to 170 or so you know you have a cam installation problem. Good luck, I hate chaseing problems.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#254980
03/18/09 08:05 PM
03/18/09 08:05 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716 Baltimore/Denver
64Post
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716
Baltimore/Denver
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Quote:
Well, I just installed a new ting set. Picked up an Edelbrock double roller. Installed it dot-to-dot straight up and did a compression test. Averaging between 190-195 across all 8 cylinders counting 5 hits on the gauge as before. Very interesting. Im gonna go ahead and try to degree the cam. The only difference between compression tests other than the readings was now the motor is ice cold, whereas before, it was a little warm...nowhere near operating temperature.
At least you were turning wrenches instead of BSing on the internet all day. I'd love to know where the cam was before -- I'm guessing about 20* late. Oh well... hey, don't forget to upsize the fuel line to 7/8 ".
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: Crizila]
#254984
03/18/09 08:56 PM
03/18/09 08:56 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506 Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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EZ valve train geometry check: Remove the rockers. Wipe a few valve stems dry with solvent. Then color them black ( at least one intake and one exhaust ) with a magic marker. reinstall the rockers. Rotate the engine through several cycles. Remove the rockers and examine the contact pattern. If it's centered on the stem and not too near the stem edges, your good to go.
Fastest 300
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#254986
03/18/09 09:11 PM
03/18/09 09:11 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716 Baltimore/Denver
64Post
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716
Baltimore/Denver
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Quote:
...so had he degreed the cam in the first place....
...instead of lining up the dots...
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#254987
03/18/09 09:22 PM
03/18/09 09:22 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759 So Cal
HealthServices
Why would you even post that?
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Why would you even post that?
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
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When finding TDC with the piston stop make sure to go VERY SLOW as you come up to the piston stop. You do not want to create any new problems.
Allen
Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first.
Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: HealthServices]
#254988
03/18/09 09:47 PM
03/18/09 09:47 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716 Baltimore/Denver
64Post
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716
Baltimore/Denver
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Quote:
When finding TDC with the piston stop make sure to go VERY SLOW as you come up to the piston stop. You do not want to create any new problems.
What... like breaking the stop off in the cylinder?
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: Crizila]
#254989
03/18/09 10:02 PM
03/18/09 10:02 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 143 North America
kwikblownhemi
member
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member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 143
North America
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Quote:
Interesting thread. Lotta experts here. I didn't say he didn't have a timing problem. I said cutting it back 3-4 degrees wasn't going to solve his problem. Neither is degreeing in his cam - if his marks are lined up correctly.
Lining the marks up means nothing. I had a customer's race 440 in the shop a few years ago because he couldn't get it to run - a real pig. I checked the cam timing and it was hugely retarded -about 15 degrees IIRC. Did I mention the marks were aligned? The cam gear/ a MP double roller set/ was marked off one tooth. Seems he hadn't wanted to go to the trouble to degree it when the engine was built.
It amazes me all the guys who drop big bucks on an engine build but won't spend less than $100 and an hour or so to degree the cam.
There's never enough money to do it right, but always enough to do it over.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#254994
03/18/09 10:49 PM
03/18/09 10:49 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,819 Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,819
Kirkland, Washington
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Quote:
Well, I just tried degreeing the cam. Repeated it 6 times to verify my results. The number I came up with is 116.5. If this cam is on a 108*, then Im 8.5* out? Which direction do I go? Advance or retard? To my knowledge, I cant seem to find a source that had 8 degree offset keyways. Any ideas?
Wow...thats off! Are you sure your TDC was accurate (which determines your positioning of the degree wheel) If it is accurate, your WAYYYYY retarded, and need to advance. Summit makes a great billet 9 slot set for about $70 that would be great (+/- 2 degrees, +8 to -8) But I gotta question if your 116.5 is accurate.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#254998
03/18/09 11:07 PM
03/18/09 11:07 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716 Baltimore/Denver
64Post
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716
Baltimore/Denver
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Nevermind... that was no help.
How are you arriving at TDC?
Last edited by 64Post; 03/18/09 11:09 PM.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#255001
03/19/09 12:06 AM
03/19/09 12:06 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759 So Cal
HealthServices
Why would you even post that?
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Why would you even post that?
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
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Sorry I have to put the little one to sleep and will not be able to help you on the setup but you can look it up like you just did. Hopefully I typed this correctly. To double check if you are at Zero. Put the piston stop in the Number one cylinder again. 1. Begin by rotating the crankshaft by hand in a clockwise direction, until the piston comes up and stops against the piston stop. 2. Note the position of where the pointer is at the degree wheel. 3. Next hand turn the engine in the opposite direction until the piston comes up and once again at the stop. 4. Look at the pointer again ‘this should stop exactly the same amount on the other side of Zero!’ 5. Again TDC is the distance exactly between these two marks and should be Zero. If it is not then you are off, do below. - Remove the stop and rotate the motor until the degree wheel is exactly between the two marks above in steps 2 and 4.
- Without moving the wheel, move the pointer to Zero. Now rotate the motor a quarter turn and put the stop in again.
- Repeat steps 1-5 above again if the degree wheel stops the same amount before and after zero you are exactly at zero.
Locating TDC is CRITICAL if you are to Degree the Cam successfully.
Allen
Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first.
Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: gch]
#255003
03/19/09 11:20 AM
03/19/09 11:20 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506 Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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I will ignore many of the snide remarks directed at me on this thread ( I got no problem if you disagree with me )as they only show a persons ignorance and do nothing to help azmopardart. I'm also not partaking in this thread to " blow my own horn" or impress anyone with my automotive knowledge ( that's kids crap ) as this also does nothing to help azmopardart solve his problems. That being said, to azmopardart: Sounds like you have most of your problems solved by getting the cam oriented to the crank properly - got the dots lined up. Glad to see you are taking the "next step" in professional engine building by degreeing in the cam. Once you have done it, it will become an automatic with future build-ups. The process has a two fold objective: 1 - verify what the cam Mfg is telling you ( cam specs ). 2 - to tailer the cam to your specific needs at the track by advancing or retarding it ( in relation to the crank )from the Mfg's suggested installation. Remember this: You will seldom find a cam off more than 3-4 degrees from there posted ( cam card ) info. - lining up the dots!! There are always exceptions of coarse - but rare. Just be wary if you come up with numbers that are way different than what the cam Mfg sez. If you are positive your numbers are correct and they are way off from the Mfg's numbers, you will probably be better off dumping the cam rather than trying to fix it with off-set keys, etc. Don't make changes to the cam timing greater than about 4 degrees ( advance or retard )from the suggested in stall numbers. You will be better off changing cams to one that is better suited to your specific needs. Finally, don't forget that 3/8" fuel line! Good luck, John
Fastest 300
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: Crizila]
#255004
03/19/09 03:28 PM
03/19/09 03:28 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675 Columbia, CT
moper
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
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az - Cool on the findings. You are now experiencing the quality of MP parts first hand!! the last mopar cam I did required 10° of change to get it where MP intended it. So if you have repeating results, I'd say you're correct. Here's the rub... You cam is retarded 8.5°.. the higher the figure, the more retarded it is in relation to the piston position. So you will need to advance it, and advancing the cam will build MORE cylinder pressure. You will want to fuel the car properly once you get this thing dialed in. You're already past pump fuel.
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: Crizila]
#255005
03/19/09 05:34 PM
03/19/09 05:34 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
I will ignore many of the snide remarks directed at me on this thread ( I got no problem if you disagree with me )as they only show a persons ignorance and do nothing to help azmopardart.
After reading your bio:
Quote:
My first Chrysler was a 1958 300D. Owned many Chrysler products since then, including a 63 Plymouth Sport Fury convertible Max wedge 426 - 3 speed stick (one of eight). Held many AHRA records in the 60's with a 64 Max Wedge 330 Dodge.
I'll wait till another time to expose my ignorance by directing snide remarks your way.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#255007
03/19/09 10:36 PM
03/19/09 10:36 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716 Baltimore/Denver
64Post
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716
Baltimore/Denver
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Quote:
Well, I think im back in action! Put it all together, double and triple checked everything, and it sounds like a different car! Pulling about 9 inches of vacuum at idle, lopes at 1400rpm (was almost smooth at 900 before), and doesnt smell like raw fuel at idle. Engine is VERY snappy and responsive. Gotta go over the finer points now such as primary jetting to start with and play with ignition timing.
Fantastic!!!
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: Crizila]
#255009
03/19/09 10:55 PM
03/19/09 10:55 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716 Baltimore/Denver
64Post
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716
Baltimore/Denver
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Quote:
Hey Curtis, thanks for posting my Bio, although I'm sure most of the "click" has already read it. It's a non-fiction Bio ( Check out the November issue of MCG ). I won't be posting yours, although it sounds quite interesting - and impressive. Congrats on retirement. You beat me by 2 years - although I'm a little older than you. Have a great day!
The word is "clique." And since I know already I'm ignorant...
As impressive as your accomplishments were, imagine how many more records you would've held if you degreed a few cams along the way instead of just lining up the dots and putting in a bigger fuel line. Considering your resume, there really is no excuse.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: Posest]
#255011
03/20/09 12:41 AM
03/20/09 12:41 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716 Baltimore/Denver
64Post
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716
Baltimore/Denver
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Quote:
If you did not learn anything then maybe you should not post but just read and think how you knew it all.
Hey, I wasn't the one trying to correct a compression issue by increasing the size of the fuel line.
Maybe you should read the thread from the beginning.
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#255013
03/20/09 09:10 AM
03/20/09 09:10 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506 Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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In a previous post on this thread I mentioned that you will rarely find a cam off spec more tham 3-4 degrees and if you do, I suggested dumping the cam rather than trying to correct it. To clarify, I have degreed in lots of cams over the years ( remember, I'm pretty old ), but I can't specifically remember degreeing in a Mopar cam ( probably did a few along the way )so I can't comment on their quality. When I have run accross one that was out more than 3-4 degrees, that discrepency often existed from lobe to lobe ( on both the advance and retard side ). Something you can't correct - hence - dump the cam. IMO, there are a lot better grinds out there these days than what Mopar has to offer( more area under the curve without sacrificing driveability ). I'm running one ( flat tappet hydraulic )right now with well over .600" lift that still pulls 10 - 12" vacuum at idle.
Fastest 300
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Re: Just returned from the track....Something is wrong!
[Re: Crizila]
#255014
03/20/09 11:54 AM
03/20/09 11:54 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675 Columbia, CT
moper
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
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Quote:
In a previous post on this thread I mentioned that you will rarely find a cam off spec more tham 3-4 degrees and if you do, I suggested dumping the cam rather than trying to correct it.
yup. That's why MP is at the bottom of my list. I've never had Wolverine, Comp, Crane, Engle or UltraDyne that was more than 2°. MPs used to be decent. But about 6 years ago now, I found two that were way off new in the box, and NOT in the same direction... So I stopped using them. You guys are SOOOOooooo old... I do have a few good old guys around to still learn from
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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