Re: Carb Tech pls school me choosing the right Booster
[Re: 1964Polara]
#2526325
07/24/18 12:12 PM
07/24/18 12:12 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,514 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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If the hsab is already as small as .025, you’re already very near the small end of what would be anything close to “normal”. The smallest Holley sells is .021” I believe.
It’s your car, but imo you’re making a mistake by not verifying the fuel pressure at wot. It may not be the whole problem, but it could contribute to making it more difficult to solve.
I vote for the “known good carb” test. This is strictly a test to see if another known carb also requires the jetting to be grossly upsized to cure a lean condition at wot.
There’s an old saying about Holley type carbs that holds true much of the time...... and it’s along the lines of...... “if you have to increase/decrease the jetting by more than 5 or 6 sizes from how it came ootb(to get the wot a/f ratio correct), it’s the wrong carb for the application”. Extrapolating on that concept a bit......... you could also say the carb configuration is wrong for the application.
IMO, jets, air bleeds, emulsion........ are “tuning” items. If you don’t have a fuel delivery problem, I don’t think your carb can be cured to the point where you have a good balance between part throttle and wot by “tuning”. It’s going to require some parts be changed.
Assuming adequate fuel flow and pressure, an old school Holley 4781 would be plenty rich(probably too rich) on that motor with 84/84 jetting and pv’s in both ends.
The reason I asked about the valve springs is, if the valvetrain is experiencing some instability, it usually shows lean on a wideband.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Carb Tech pls school me choosing the right Booster
[Re: 1964Polara]
#2526353
07/24/18 12:55 PM
07/24/18 12:55 PM
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 156 michigan
6pakdakota
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member
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Posts: 156
michigan
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The fuel pump “rating” means almost nothing.
If you haven’t done it yet, you need to plumb a fuel pressure gauge into the line up near the carb and see what the pressure is at wot. If it’s less than 5psi, that’s the first thing that should be addressed.
I would be sure I had at least a 3/8” supply line from end to end, including the pick up.
Since you’re talking about doing prolonged wot operation, I would be upsizing the tank vent as well........ I’d do a 3/8” vent.
You need to determine for sure that the fuel supply is keeping up with demand before trying to fix the carb.
One more thing, where do you have the floats adjusted?
The power valve rating should have no affect on your problem, at wot they should all be open. The pvcr is the feed hole in the metering block supplied by the PV. It’s likely they will need to be enlarged from what they are now so that they contribute more enrichment when the PV opens.
A couple of follow up questions...... -What valve springs are on the heads? -does the a/f meter show lean fairly quickly after you go to wot, or does it take a little time for that to happen? -Does it seem to get suddenly worse when you reach a certain rpm? If so, what rpm is that? 3/8 sized Fuel sending unit and fuel lines all way. Not tested the fuel pressure as it hooks now with the large main jets and it doesn't seem to lack fuel in the bowls but I can check. Hughes Cam HUG SEH5660BL-8 with corresponding HUG 1107 Valve Springs. It went fairly quick lean and pinged until we raised the main jets. If I dont want to end up boring the metering blocks for increased power valve feeding I gues i can just enrich thru the Air bleeds. At least I know the sizes from Holley: Idle Air: 74 & High Speed Air: 25 I just replaced the pump on my truck that I thought should be large enough to feed the engine (performer rpm mechanical). I found that fuel pressure was dropping to 4 psi at wot. Although the pump change alone did not help my et ( I think I have other issues), it does help to know for sure if you have the correct fuel pressure.
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Re: Carb Tech pls school me choosing the right Booster
[Re: 1964Polara]
#2526419
07/24/18 02:25 PM
07/24/18 02:25 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,871 Pattison Texas
CSK
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,871
Pattison Texas
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A worn fuel pump push rod will cause the problem. sorry if already mentioned.
1968 Charger COLD A/C Hilborn EFI 512ci 9.7 compression, Stealth heads, 4.10 gear A518 ODtrans 4100lb,10.93 full street car trim 2020 T/A 392 Stock 11.79 @ 114.5
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Re: Carb Tech pls school me choosing the right Booster
[Re: 1964Polara]
#2526490
07/24/18 04:56 PM
07/24/18 04:56 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,210 New York
polyspheric
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master
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Posts: 4,210
New York
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The HSAB size is not the sole source of emulsion air, changing from a .025" to .021" has nothing like the area proportion (28% leaner) effect on A/F.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Carb Tech pls school me choosing the right Booster
[Re: 1964Polara]
#2526545
07/24/18 06:55 PM
07/24/18 06:55 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,514 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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The point I seem to have been unsuccessfully trying to get across thus far is....... 84/84 jetting with pv’s on both ends is plenty of jet area for a properly configured 1.56x1.75 carb to supply enough fuel to a 500” motor that makes 550-600hp. Especially if it’s got .025” hsab’s in it.
The jet area isn’t the real problem here.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Carb Tech pls school me choosing the right Booster
[Re: 1964Polara]
#2526555
07/24/18 07:09 PM
07/24/18 07:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,094 central texas
krautrock
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,094
central texas
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I wonder what the driving situation is for the OP, what engine rpm and what the vacuum reading might be, this is going to be constant rpm I'm guessing.
Could this be a problem with the power valve?
could he be running 5000rpm on the highway for a few miles and have the vacuum high enough that the PV starts closing? would the motor be able to run leaner at that speed if it's a light load 5000rpm cruise?
fast68 is definitely pointing out some variables that should be looked... I would try a known working carb to on the car.
Last edited by krautrock; 07/24/18 07:10 PM.
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Re: Carb Tech pls school me choosing the right Booster
[Re: 1964Polara]
#2526563
07/24/18 07:26 PM
07/24/18 07:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,514 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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I Live Here
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In order to maintain say, 4500- 5000rpm with 2.76 gears(about 130mph @4500 with a 27” tire) i think would require a fairly substantial throttle opening(the OP should be able to answer that question). Enough to where I doubt you’d be making enough vacuum to close the PV. And if you did, you could just install one with a higher rating to make sure it stayed open.
However, the pvcr isn’t enough of an increase in jet area commensurate with the adding of 15 sizes of jet, like what the OP has done on the rear. So, even with a PV plug installed, it shouldn’t need 99 jets for adequate fuel flow.
One thing I would try after I did the “known good carb" test would be trying larger needle and seats in the 950....... assuming the known good carb didn’t also require a massive jet change to get the a/f within a reasonable range. If the known good carb shows it needing similarly upsized jetting...... I think it would be safe to say the problem isn’t the carb itself.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Carb Tech pls school me choosing the right Booster
[Re: polyspheric]
#2526596
07/24/18 08:37 PM
07/24/18 08:37 PM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,318 State of confusion
Thumperdart
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The HSAB size is not the sole source of emulsion air, changing from a .025" to .021" has nothing like the area proportion (28% leaner) effect on A/F. In air bleeds that's a HUGH change.........And the .021's are more of a "pre drilled" deal than most would run imo...........
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
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Re: Carb Tech pls school me choosing the right Booster
[Re: 1964Polara]
#2526961
07/25/18 04:06 PM
07/25/18 04:06 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,514 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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So. Burlington, Vt.
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Just a little something to help put into perspective how much of a change the OP made to his carb jetting....... assuming you took out Holley jets, and replaced with Holley jets, going from an 84 jet(.098”) to a 99 jet(.126”) represents an increase in jet area of 65%.
On the primary side he is running 92 jets and a PV. Assuming the current pvcr is around .060(this is a pure guess, it’s likely smaller), if you wanted to be able to get back to the 84 jets and still have the same jet area as a 92 jet(.110) and a .060 pvcr, you’d need to increase the pvcr to .093”.
I’m not advocating doing this, I’m just showing what it would theoretically take to do it.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Carb Tech pls school me choosing the right Booster
[Re: B1MAXX]
#2527109
07/25/18 09:46 PM
07/25/18 09:46 PM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,318 State of confusion
Thumperdart
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I Live Here
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State of confusion
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This one could be fuel delivery. I don't run 99's in my 1150 dominator. Another thought, what is the alcohol content in German fuel? FWIW My 1200 cfm Dommy has .082-.090's and has a nice linear fuel curve from about 11.9 at the hit and graduates to about 12.9-13.0 at 7000 rpm's and even Steve Brule at West tech dyoned two carbs of mine and was impressed with the curve. If you clean up the over emulsified carbs put out these days and size the high bleeds accordingly, you'd be surprised how little jet is needed............
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
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