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Re: Truck not performing as expected. Need help! [Re: 6pakdakota] #2522530
07/16/18 12:13 PM
07/16/18 12:13 PM
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So. Burlington, Vt.
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fast68plymouth Offline
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It wouldn’t surprise me if there are valvetrain stability issues setting in with the motor at 5800rpm through the traps.

Using the butt dyno to diag that situation can be tough.

If your perception is that the motor feels really strong well past 6k in 2nd gear, you might be okay........ but a few pulls on a chassis dyno could reveal something.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Truck not performing as expected. Need help! [Re: 6pakdakota] #2522532
07/16/18 12:16 PM
07/16/18 12:16 PM
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GTX MATT Offline
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I have to be honest with you, I didn't read all of your specifics the first time through (on my phone). I didn't catch the fact that its a stroker, and I assumed this was a heavy 3800-4000 lb truck. MAYBE I'm missing something here, but given that its stroked and your truck is that light I would think you should be running low 11s @ 118-120 sorted out. How the heck did you get the truck that light? With that bigger cam you have I would think you had a shot at a 10.99 with the right converter once you slide that in, again unless I'm missing something. Do you know what those heads flow? I thought they were in the 260-270 neighborhood @ 600 lift?

I'd say upgrade the fuel system and go from there. My car did not show symptoms of being under fueled. In fact, I could jet it up and and peg my wideband at 10.0 at the hit, but my fuel curve was completely messed up and it would lean out at the top of every gear. Getting WOT in the 13.0 range made a big difference in the performance, but it was coming up to 14.0-14.5 at 6000 RPM. Very difficult to read the wideband too because it was bouncing alot on its way up. The car wouldn't nose over, and it revved up quick, just lacked torque. Fuel pressure would also drop much more drastically once warmed up (vapor locking).

I'm not sure what you're running for fuel, modern pump fuel is more problematic with a mechanical fuel pump too. Its designed to vaporize quickly, which is good for FI applications, but with the mechanical pumps putting it under a vacuum it vaporizes even easier, increasing the chances of vapor lock.

Basic stuff, but what is your ignition timing/curve, and have you verified that TDC on the balancer is true TDC? Did you degree the cam, and do you know what cranking compression or leakdown is? Are you SURE you're getting WOT with that trick throttle cable bracket there?


Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
Re: Truck not performing as expected. Need help! [Re: GTX MATT] #2522549
07/16/18 12:48 PM
07/16/18 12:48 PM
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Apollo, PA.
B1MAXX Offline
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Put the solid cam in an ditch the power steering would be my first moves. probably a moroso waterpump drive and electric fan also/next. If I remember the engine compartment pic you have a pulley driven fan, waterpump, and power steering there is 2 tenths right there. I agree on the carb and converter but those are more money. Altogether though:
solid cam is probably .2
getting rid of mechanical accessories .2
1050 dominator .2 (there is et to be gained from an intake and spacer swap but I'll leave that out for this purpose)
converter maybey .3-.5
should be 11.2-11.00 (maybey 10.90's) combo based off the current 12.10 et
It should have an electric pump also. It doesn't have to be fancy either. My buddy has a bbc vette with a holley blue pump and has been going 9.70's for years with it. Not my first choice but it works.
twocents

Re: Truck not performing as expected. Need help! [Re: 6pakdakota] #2522798
07/16/18 08:14 PM
07/16/18 08:14 PM
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michigan
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6pakdakota Offline OP
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The converter is so bad on this thing, I don’t even know if it can run faster right now. After the fuel issue is fixed, I was going to try nitrous, but that will probably make it worse.

Re: Truck not performing as expected. Need help! [Re: OUTLAWD] #2522801
07/16/18 08:25 PM
07/16/18 08:25 PM
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6pakdakota Offline OP
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Originally Posted By OUTLAWD
Originally Posted By 6pakdakota
Originally Posted By OUTLAWD
A lightweight!

I think the weather had to contribute a decent amount, and will agree with the others that the converter is too tight.

I have a similar mild 493 in my Plymouth, the 9.5" converter flashes to ~4400. Even the old off the shelf 10" "3000 stall" flashed to ~4k. I normally run 3.55's and a 28" tire and weigh 3700 lb at the line.


It is pretty light for an all steel 1/2 ton truck. Lol. What is your combo and what does it run? If you don’t mind me asking.


Combo:
66 Belv
493; 10.25:1
-516 heads, big valves
4150 M1 w/ FITech
520/520 260/266 @ 0.050
TTI 2" headers, 3.5 x-pipe, muffs and dumps
727; 9.5" converter, flashes to ~4400
8 3/4; 3.55's
tires vary, but normally run a 28" radial

Last year I was playing with a small plate kit, so didn't have too many runs on motor, ran 11.31 @ 118 at Milan with ~1700' air last time out, and 10.83 with a 0.050 jet in the plate...

Post up next time your are heading out, I'll try to make the trek. I used to work in Ann Arbor, so it was easy to shoot down to Milan, now I work in Pontiac...


That sounds like a good running combo. What is a 0.050 jet? About 75 hp? After my truck is sorted out, i would like to try a 150 shot. How do you like the FITech?

Re: Truck not performing as expected. Need help! [Re: 6pakdakota] #2523050
07/17/18 12:43 PM
07/17/18 12:43 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,942
Metro Detroit
OUTLAWD Offline
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Originally Posted By 6pakdakota


That sounds like a good running combo. What is a 0.050 jet? About 75 hp? After my truck is sorted out, i would like to try a 150 shot. How do you like the FITech?


Should be around a ~90 HP shot. I wanted to up it to a 150-175 shot last year, but ran out of decent days.

You get what you pay for with the FITech. It evidently only flows ~850 CFM, which makes sense why it hasn't slowed the car down compared to my old 950HP PN80496 which also flows ~830...but it might pick up with more flow.

I should stop playing around and put real heads/cam on it

Last edited by OUTLAWD; 07/17/18 12:52 PM.

Faster, Faster until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death...

71 Swinger - slowly collecting dust/parts
66 Belv. II - just a streetcar
88 Mustang - turbo LS beater
Re: Truck not performing as expected. Need help! [Re: 6pakdakota] #2523067
07/17/18 01:30 PM
07/17/18 01:30 PM
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So. Burlington, Vt.
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fast68plymouth Offline
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Quote:
I should stop playing around and put real heads/cam on it


Be interesting to see what a set of heads....... and no other changes....... would do.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Truck not performing as expected. Need help! [Re: fast68plymouth] #2523220
07/17/18 05:55 PM
07/17/18 05:55 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
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Metro Detroit
OUTLAWD Offline
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Originally Posted By fast68plymouth
Quote:
I should stop playing around and put real heads/cam on it


Be interesting to see what a set of heads....... and no other changes....... would do.


Agreed. Keeping this cam, I'd lean towards the TF240 head, but if I were to step up the cam, I might entertain the TF270 with MW ports.


Faster, Faster until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death...

71 Swinger - slowly collecting dust/parts
66 Belv. II - just a streetcar
88 Mustang - turbo LS beater
Re: Truck not performing as expected. Need help! [Re: 6pakdakota] #2523268
07/17/18 08:37 PM
07/17/18 08:37 PM
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Bend,OR USA
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Originally Posted By 6pakdakota
I was shifting at 5600-5700 trap at 57-5800. It looks like the converter is slipping about 12% also. I definitely have a lot of work to do on this thing.

You should use a seamstress tape to measure the tires actual circumference in the middle of the tread pattern and use that for your converter slippage calculations, not all tire heights are the same as advertised runaway
I learned that lesson a long time ago when I bought a pair of drag slicks that had over three inches difference in circumference between the two tires puke
The stupid car started driving sideway away from the starting line at WOT shock It didn't do it with the other tires so I finally figured out it was in the new tires, nothing else realcrazy
I've bought and used 9x30x15 inch drag slicks that varied in circumference from 92.5 inch to 96.75 work
Once I found out that I could get and legally use the taller tires those were the ones I bought and used from then on devil up

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 07/17/18 08:41 PM.

Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Truck not performing as expected. Need help! [Re: Cab_Burge] #2523272
07/17/18 08:43 PM
07/17/18 08:43 PM
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6pakdakota Offline OP
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Originally Posted By Cab_Burge
Originally Posted By 6pakdakota
I was shifting at 5600-5700 trap at 57-5800. It looks like the converter is slipping about 12% also. I definitely have a lot of work to do on this thing.

You should use a seamstress tape to measure the tires actual circumference in the middle of the tread pattern and use that for your converter slippage calculations, not all tire heights are the same as advertised runaway I learned that lesson a long time ago when I bought a pair of drag slicks that had over three inches difference in circumference between the two tires puke
The stupid car started driving sideway away from the starting line at WOT shock It didn't do it with the other tires so I finally figured out it was in the new tires, nothing else realcrazy
I've bought and used 9x30x15 inch drag slicks that varied in circumference from 92.5 inch to 96.75 work
Once I found out that I could get and legally use the taller tires those were the ones I bought and used from then on devil up

I never thought about that. I will have to measure them. Thanks.

Re: Truck not performing as expected. Need help! [Re: 6pakdakota] #2525308
07/22/18 12:05 PM
07/22/18 12:05 PM
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Hopefully the rain holds off today. I should be headed out to Milan tonight, to try out the new fuel pump. I don’t think it will make that big of a difference though.

Re: Truck not performing as expected. Need help! [Re: 6pakdakota] #2525322
07/22/18 12:33 PM
07/22/18 12:33 PM
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,Pa.
68dodge Offline
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To me that not to bad of a run with motor combo. The 76 D 100 truck I have that did not sale, weighs in at 3320 and so far it has run 11.30s with a 505. Since I could not sale it, it will be down the track with it and try to get close to 10s with it.

Re: Truck not performing as expected. Need help! [Re: 6pakdakota] #2556816
09/30/18 10:19 PM
09/30/18 10:19 PM
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I ran the truck last night with a new dynamic 9.5 converter. It ran a best ever 11.65, pulling both front wheels, but it still only runs 110mph. I guess it’s time to put the new cam in. I was also runner up in my class, so that was cool too.

Re: Truck not performing as expected. Need help! [Re: 6pakdakota] #2556824
09/30/18 10:37 PM
09/30/18 10:37 PM
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Byron, NY
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If you want to pick up MPH replace that MSD 6 with a 7. When I had similar results as you, swapped in a 7al in place of a 6al and picked up 5mph


'01 P1500, Blown/Inj BAE,/Veney ,Bruno/CS2,Dana 60
'01 Dodge 3500 S Cummins Auto, Fresh air kit, 4" Exhaust,
'05 Dodge Magnum R/T - Too Much to list
'60 Willys CJ5
'01 International LPX - Project,DT466, Allison
'64 Plymouth Valiant, Inj 528 Hemi, 2spd
Re: Truck not performing as expected. Need help! [Re: 6pakdakota] #2556938
10/01/18 10:27 AM
10/01/18 10:27 AM
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So. Burlington, Vt.
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fast68plymouth Offline
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The moroso chart shows 110 is good for an 11.90, so your ET is much better than the speed.

I’m still leaning towards valvetrain issues.

How much stall from the new converter?


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Truck not performing as expected. Need help! [Re: fast68plymouth] #2556977
10/01/18 11:43 AM
10/01/18 11:43 AM
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6pakdakota Offline OP
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Originally Posted By fast68plymouth
The moroso chart shows 110 is good for an 11.90, so your ET is much better than the speed.

I’m still leaning towards valvetrain issues.

How much stall from the new converter?


I’m with you on the valve train issue.

The new converter is flashing to about 4300-4400 rpm.

Re: Truck not performing as expected. Need help! [Re: 6pakdakota] #2558139
10/03/18 09:35 AM
10/03/18 09:35 AM
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Metro Detroit
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How'd you make out on Saturday?
I think I saw the truck, but had to leave early


Faster, Faster until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death...

71 Swinger - slowly collecting dust/parts
66 Belv. II - just a streetcar
88 Mustang - turbo LS beater
Re: Truck not performing as expected. Need help! [Re: OUTLAWD] #2558618
10/03/18 09:27 PM
10/03/18 09:27 PM
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6pakdakota Offline OP
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Originally Posted By OUTLAWD
How'd you make out on Saturday?
I think I saw the truck, but had to leave early


You should have said hi.
I made it to the final against a Roadrunner, where I lost by .008 seconds. Here is a video from my back bumper racing a friend in a fox body. https://youtu.be/T_JygdfX6fE

Re: Truck not performing as expected. Need help! Update [Re: 6pakdakota] #2558854
10/04/18 11:28 AM
10/04/18 11:28 AM
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Well, let's look at the basics here.

Clutch fan or mechanical fan? Proven 30-HP loss at 5,000 RPM with a mechanical fan, near 6,000 RPM, probably quiet a bit more. If it doesn't have a fan clutch, that's the easiest power you'll make right now.

Get rid of the mechanical fuel pump, you paid -big money- to stroke the wedge to 493ci and purchase aluminum heads, a simple Walbro 255 with an Aeromotive regulator / return line will support more power than the block is capable of. That's a premium OEM pump and cost around $100. You'll never have a pressure drop and it will remove vapor lock related issues.

Mechanical water pumps don't draw that much power through parasitic drag, very slight decrease over running an expensive, failure prone electric water pump.

Sidewinder heads flow around 250 - CFM @ .500" lift (ootb, 270 - CFM with bowl work), which can support well over 500 - HP, but the MPH shows you aren't making anywhere near that. New Challenger Scat Pack weighs 4,400 lbs with driver. They run 115 MPH in the quarter with around 430 RWHP.

Your combination is mismatched, 30" drag radial, 4.10 gears, 4,000 (guess) 9.5" converter, 2" headers, 496-cubes, dual-plane intake (Indy, known for core shift), .519" flat-tappet (real lazy) camshaft, with heads that flow 270-CFM @ .500" lift (after bowl work).

This is begging for a single-plane intake (with a lot of port volume) and a SFT / Roller camshaft. You're leaving so much power on the table, this should be making enough power to be a low-11 / high-10 second D100.

Last edited by Sweet5ltr; 10/04/18 11:28 AM.

1969 Plymouth Road Runner (440 w/ Boost! RIP) now a low-deck 470 with hotchkis suspension, nascar boom tube exhaust, & big brakes.
Re: Truck not performing as expected. Need help! Update [Re: 6pakdakota] #2615872
02/02/19 03:54 AM
02/02/19 03:54 AM
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6pakdakota Offline OP
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Small update. I did end up swapping the rear gear to a 3.91 before the season was over. That got me an extra 2 mph, but nothing I bet. I believe Dwayne is right about the valvtrain issues. In the spring I am doing the cam swap and switching back to the 4.10 gears. I can’t wait to make a 10 second pass this year. Fingers crossed.

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