I’ve got the clutch straightened out. Turns out that all that was required was adding a bolt on extension to the clutch fork. It was pretty simple to built but took just a bit of time working on a creeper to figure out what I needed to make.


57 ext by M Patterson, on Flickr



Changing to an automatic is not completely off the table depending on what I end up doing for power steering , but I figure I've probably bought my leg a few more years with the 4 speed. if I decide to keep it.


I mentioned in the original post that I put the 57 together so I could drive it to Tulsa when the unearthed the 57 Belvedere in 2007.


Now that I’m working on the 57 again I’ve gone back and revisited some web sites I was on when I built the car. I came across some information on the Belvederes’ current status.

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2017/06/28...eum/?refer=news

The car looks a lot better than it did when it came out of the hole, but like the article indicates all the metal is thin and pin holed (“It’s basically like papier mâché,”).

The museum where it’s to be located is only a couple of hour drive from where my High School reunion will be so if it’s still there I’ll probably take a drive and go see it.

Once I got the 57 drivable back in 06 the drivers’ side rear spring started to sag a bit. I took the easy/quick way out at the time and threw a set of air shocks on the back. I finally got tired of adding air to them every 3 days so figured I go ahead and fix it right.

My experience with re-ached springs is that they tend to be over arched and when they are first put on the car sits like a stink bug and it take up to a couple years for the rear to settle to the final ride height. The only new off the shelf springs that will bolt on to the 57 are Mopar Performance C body super stock springs and those are a bit on the stiff side for my taste (I used them on the 57 Dodge I built several years ago).

That pretty much left adding some leafs to the spring packs. I had a spring pack out in the shed that has the right width leafs so I ended up adding 2 to the drivers’ side and one to the passengers’ side. That and a new pair of shocks and one more thing is checked off the list.

57 brakes by M Patterson, on Flickr


I also started collecting the bits and pieces for the dual quads. I picked up an original 57 dual quad manifold form a friend of mine who has decided to go with an aluminum intake for his Hemi. I set a pair of parts carbs on to check the height of the spacers I want to run under them (these carbs have too many internal issues to make them viable as builders). I’ll be running spacers for 2 reasons; insulating the carbs from the intake to help prevent heat soak on hot days , getting the air cleaner up into the scoop area……even with 1 ½” of spacers the air cleaner is still sits lower than the tri-power.

354 DQ by M Patterson, on Flickr

I like the big oval air cleaner on this car, but when I built it the only thing I could find were the chrome steel ones. To me the chrome steel never looked quite right with the aluminum valve covers. I picked up an aluminum air cleaner assembly which was black powder coated. I got the powder coating stripped (acetone and steel wool). Right now I’m debating whether to polish the lid out or send it and the valve covers out to be powder coated. I’m kind of leaning towards the powder coating. The “near chrome” powder coating does not look anything like chrome but does look like polished aluminum and it doesn’t oxidize like polished aluminum does. It’s also a lot easier than polishing the lid and those big valve covers …..but like I said, I’m still deciding.

Longer? No that would worsen the issue.

Shorter, yes.

Depending on the applications you can sometimes find a different model arm that will bolt on and work.

I took a look at the Cavalier center pivot R&P. At a glance for this car it’s probably more unfeasible than trying to rig a convention rack under the car. Besides the rack hanging down way to low, the added room required for rack movement and the angle the tie rods would end up requiring a complete redesign of the front crossmember and oil pan. By the time that’s finished you’re almost looking at a front frame clip again.

I found a build thread on another Hemi Plaza last week (neat project). He started with a 6 Cyl car like mine and changed out the 6 Cyl Frame mounts to original V8 Frame mounts like I did. He ended up with room for a factory PS unit……..on closer inspection of his pictures, it turns out he had shifted his engine over a couple of inches. That boats already sailed on mine ( and I won’t put factory PS on mine anyway).

Like I said I think I can fit a 800 series Saginaw box in but I’m continuing to look at options. I talked to a friend of mine yesterday and he has a core 605 Saginaw box I can borrow for a while. It’s a bit smaller and may be easier to mount than the 800s and universal Pitman arms are available for them so I’m going take a closer look at that.

This week is going to be pretty much eaten up with getting a load of stuff ready to take up to a swap meet in Tucson so it will probably be a bit before I get back on the steering.

You're making good progress.

I started looking for AFBs to use for the dual quads a couple of weeks ago. Personally I usually like to find a pair of used carbs that are matched and build them myself. I usually have at least some AFBs sitting on the shelf but over the last few years a lot have been used or sold so I didn’t have anything suitable on hand. The local wrecking yards were picked over years ago so I went on E Bay and Craigs List to see what was out there. It’s been a few years since I've bought any and boy did I get a bit of sticker shock.

There was a swap meet in Tucson last Saturday that I was going to anyway so I figured I'd see if I could find anything up there. There were several used AFBs around but most sellers were asking E Bay prices. I did find one Carter 9635S that the guy was asking $60 on (about twice what I’d normally pay for a builder) but I bit the bullet and bought it anyway……..if I didn’t find a mate for it I figured I could built it and either keep it on hand or sell it. I found the “bargain of the day” a little later when a guy set up across the road from me (selling mostly flea market stuff) and set out a pretty grungy looking 9625S for $5.


sm2 by M Patterson, on Flickr


There are a couple of minor external differences between the 9635 and 9625 but they are both 625 CFM and internally identical.

They both cleaned up well and I had enough parts on hand to build one so I only had to buy one kit. I verified they were both jetted the same and have the same step rods and springs so that will be my starting point.

I built the carb I’m going to be using as the primary carb back to the way it originally was and removed the choke from the carb that will be used as the secondary carb. It happens the carb spacing on the factory manifold is just right to use an aftermarket fuel line for a Holley dual feed double pumper, which takes care of having to build fuel lines. The carb spacing is the same on both the First Gen Chrysler Hemi and the factory B and RB cast iron in line dual quad manifolds the fuel line will work for either

DQ by M Patterson, on Flickr

So with the cost of the carbs and 1 kit, I’m into the carbs for about $100……sometimes life isn’t not too bad.

those carbs look good. what did you use to clean them with ?

When I decided to put the dual quads on the 57 and started looking around for AFBs I became concerned that I would have a problem finding affordable builders. I did luck out and found the 625 CFM AFBs though and got them rebuilt and ready to use. They weren’t my first choice but I’m pretty sure they will work out fine.

My first choice was a pair of early 60s Cadillac AFBs. I’d used a pair of these on my 65 Chevy (350 4 speed) years ago and really liked the way they ran. I had one sitting on the shelf and had keep my eyes open for a mate for it for years but never was lucky enough to find one.

It never fails, a couple of days after I got 625s rebuilt I found out a friend of mine had the Cadillac carb I wanted sitting on his shelf gathering dust. We ended up doing a bit of trading and it ended up in my shop.


Cad AF by M Patterson, on Flickr


I picked up a couple of kits and got them both taken apart and cleaned up. You could tell it had been a long time since anybody had been into to them (I think they had both had kits at least once sometime in the past). When was the last time you took a carburetor apart and it had steel needles (no “rubber” tips) in it?

SN by M Patterson, on Flickr



So now I have 2 pairs of carbs to try out on the 57.


Cad AFB 2 by M Patterson, on Flickr


These AFBs are a little unusual compared to most of the ones produced. They are 575 CFM and don’t have an idle speed adjustment screw. The throttle plates are closed at idle and the speed is adjusted with the brass air bleed screw located between the fuel mixture screws. As they are the early AFBs they have the also have the smaller 4 7/32” air cleaner base instead of the 5 1/8” used on the later AFBs. I found an outfit that sells aluminum adapter rings for the air cleaners so that I have a pair of those coming too.

I’m going to set both pairs of carbs up for synchronized and progressive linkage while the intake is still on the bench. So now I’m down to building 4 sets of carb linkage. Whatever set carbs I don’t end up using on the 57 will probably eventually find a home on something else around here.

As far as cleaning them it depends on how bad they are. I always soak them in a 5 gallon can of carburetor I have here (I'm not sure who made it, the can is 7 or 8 years old and I've had to replace the original can it was in....it might have been hydro-seal). Then it's spray can carb cleaner and compressed air especially thru the internal passages. A little steel wool and elbow grease usually works if there is stubborn gunk. Although I really hate doing it if they are internally salvageable but bad on the outside I have been known to seal everything up and bead blast the outside to clean them up. It takes a long time and a lot of carb cleaner to clean them afterward though. I've never had a problem with a carb I've done this to, but that is usually a last resort.

I spent the last few days sorting out the linkage for both pairs of AFBs. Building linkage on the bench is a lot easier than doing it stretched over a fender. The Carter 625s were already on the intake so I started with those. I set both pairs of carbs up for synchronized and progressive linkage so I can easily change over and find out what the engine likes best.

The synchronized linkage was a snap and took just a couple of minutes to set up.


DQS by M Patterson, on Flickr


The progressive linkage is just slightly more complicated but still pretty simple. It's so simple I just couldn't bring myself to spend $35 for a pre-made set so I spent about an hour building my own. I basically just copied the style used on the Chevys Dual Quad 409 cars.


DQ P by M Patterson, on Flickr


There is just enough difference between the throttle arms on the 625 CFM Carters and the Caddy AFBs that the linkage wouldn't directly interchange so I just built a second set for the Caddy carbs.


Cad afb s by M Patterson, on Flickr


Cad AFB P by M Patterson, on Flickr


Here's a shot of the other side with the fuel line.

DQFL by M Patterson, on Flickr

I've gone about as far as I can on the dual quads until it's time to install them. For now I'll throw a towel over them until I get some more Plymouth time.



.

Nice job on that intake set-up

I've had several early Chrysler Fire Power Hemi (331 and several 300 C and D 392 motors) with the factory cast iron single plain dual 4 barrel intakes with stock progressive throttle linkage that I ended up converting to 1 to 1, which in my experience was much better driving in both the big old 300 cars with the push button cast iron torqueflytes and my 1933 Ford pick up street rod back with the early Ford stock three speed with the weak enclosed driveline and rear end in the mid 1960s
I use to look for a aluminum dual plane dual 4 barrel intake for them but never saw one anywhere in SO CA after looking for 30+ yrs at the swap meets and races, how about you?
Your Plymouth looks good
What part of AZ do you live in now?

I live a bit south of Tucson....down in the land of no smog testing.

Years ago I did a bit of normal maintenance work on a customers 55 300 but never had a chance to do any "playing" with the carbs or intake.

I did have a factory 1958 BB Dual Quad intake on a 69 440 I stuffed in a 57 Dodge Coronet many years ago. The design of the manifolds is pretty much identical........ BIG open plenum with a couple of 4 BBLs bolted to it and a large heat chamber cast into the bottom. My experience with that intake was that performance was noticeably better with a 1:1 ratio but mileage suffered by a couple miles to the gallon. I suspect my experience will be pretty much the same with this. I also recall that with that intake the engine was pretty cold blooded too, hopefully the MSD I'm running on the 57 will make a difference with that.

I used to do the swap meets a lot in the pre-internet days and it was very seldom that you saw ANY early Hemi parts. I only do about 1 meet a year now but it's still pretty much the same. I did score the Weiand Drag Star 6X2 intake that's on the 331 in my 37 Dodge at the Prescott Swap meet 25 years ago though. Seems most of the HEMI stuff usually gets shuffled around by word of mouth.

I figured I'd update where I'm at with the power steering swap. I really don't plan on tearing the 57 apart for the dual quads and PS till sometime this spring and have been mostly collecting parts. With the dual quads ready to go on I've been concentrating on figuring out the PS swap and gathering the pieces I figure I'll need.

Just a brief recap. This is the original manual steering gear I want to replace.

sg by M Patterson, on Flickr


The original style PS gear is a lot bulkier and has virtually no road feel. Even if I could fit one in the car with the HEMI it would be my last choice.


PS G by M Patterson, on Flickr


The 354 Hemi with the 56 Manifolds just barely fits around the steering gear. The top of the steering box almost touches the bottom of the exhaust manifold.

SB by M Patterson, on Flickr


I had originally looked at using a Saginaw 700 style steering box, the most common one that was used on most GM cars and light Trucks from the 60s-80s and Mopars in the 70s. I'm pretty sure there's room for the 700, but eventually decided to try the smaller and lighter Saginaw 605 Box. The 605 is an almost direct replacement for the 700. The mounting holes are the same as is the 3/4" 30 spline input shaft. When bolted up the pitman shaft is located in the same place.




S5 by M Patterson, on Flickr


The only thing that really keep the 605 from being a direct replacement is diameter that the pitman shaft which is smaller on the 605 than it is on the 700s. The 605 pitman arm is the same diameter and splines as the Saginaw manual steering boxes which means that any manual steering pitman arms from least 1958 through the 1980 GM cars will fit the box, giving me a lot of choices to pick from. Additionally Borgeson makes a few "universal" pitman arms for the 605 Box.


I went ahead and picked up a rebuilt 605 steering gear and I have a junk one to use in mockup. The rebuilt box has the same amount of rotation stop to stop and the original 57 and is 3 1/2 turns as opposed the the 57s 4 1/2 turns stop to stop.

Mounted on the frame rail the 605 will sit considerable lower than the original gear, placing it where it will be well below the exhaust manifold and into an area where there appears to be plenty of room for it.

S1 by M Patterson, on Flickr


The one thing I hadn't considered when I started looking at the Saginaw boxes was that it would move the pitman shaft inboard about 2" from where it is with the stock box.


S3 by M Patterson, on Flickr


I'm not sure exactly how I'll end up compensating for the 2 inches, but I think I have a couple options. One is a pitman arm that is bent where it properly locates the outer end for the pitman arm to connect to the drag link.


I currently have a couple of stock Chevrolet manual steering pitman arms (58 and 65 Chevy) and I sprung for a Borgeson universal pitman arm ( one of the bendable steel ones).

Neither of the stock arm locate the pitman arm where it needs to be but as I mentioned there are a lot of other stock arms out there that may.


S4 by M Patterson, on Flickr


The Borgeson universal pitman arm is not cut with the master splines that the stock arms have. It might be as simple as just locating the arm on the shaft in the position that located the pitman arm outer end in the same location as the stock box and pitman arm.


S6 by M Patterson, on Flickr



Another option might be to adjust the tie rods by shortening the ones passengers side and lengthening the drivers side, moving the while drag ling over. The potential issue I may run into with either solution or combination of the 2 is I'm not sure how it will affect the geometry of the draglink and tie rods as the as they move thru their travel. Another solution I've been kicking around is seeing if I can find a drag link off something else that would fit and move the joint at the pitman arm inboard.......or even as a final option have a custom drag ling built.


Once I get the steering box/draglink/tie rods sorted out, I'll still need to shorten the steering column and add an intermediate shaft. Shortening the column won't be a big deal. Rather than buy a couple steering universal joints and piece of bar stock to make a custom shaft I think I can use a trick/upgrade I learned about when I was building my G body El Caminos. It happens an 88-96 Jeep Cherokee is a direct bolt in for the 78-87 GM G body vehicles. Here is a comparison picture of the stock G Body shaft and Jeep shaft.


84 94 s shaft by M Patterson, on Flickr



The Jeep shafts eliminate the trunion joint at the top and rag joint at the bottom with U Joints (the correct splines at the bottom joint for the Saginaw steering boxes and a double D end at the top). The U joints can run at a bit steeper angle than the aftermarket steering U joints and the shaft will collapse and telescope depending on the length needed.

So far the biggest expenditures have been the rebuilt steering box and jeep steering shaft. If this doesn't work out the money won't go to waste, the parts will either sit on the shelf as spares for my 83 El Camino or the wifes 84 El Camino will get a steering upgrade.


So that's where I am right now.

From my past experience with modifying steering components, I suggest you bend the pitman arm (or find one that works) so it will keep the box centered and will meet where the drag link needs to be for it to be centered. Attempting to adjust the tie rod ends to accomplish the task creates more issues then it solves.

When do you think you will be moving forward with this swap? My son has a 57 Dodge with the original power steering, unfortunately, last summer the car went under water and we have concerns about the condition of the power steering unit. His car has a 5.7 Hemi, we had a pump modified to run the original power steering, and we will replace the pump, but it would be nice to upgrade the original power steering unit as well. Gene

".....From my past experience with modifying steering components, I suggest you bend the pitman arm (or find one that works) so it will keep the box centered and will meet where the drag link needs to be for it to be centered. Attempting to adjust the tie rod ends to accomplish the task creates more issues then it solves......"


That's been kind of my thought too Gene.


I'm thinking on getting started on the conversion around Mar/Apr.....when I do I'll post my progress on this thread.

If you do end up having the original gear redone, I'd recommend "Benchworks" in Phoenix. I had a couple of the original gears done by them some years ago and they seem to know what they are doing.....they're a bit pricey, but you don't want to have to pull that steering box more than once.

http://benchworksteering.com/

This is great info. Thanks for the update!

I decided to go ahead and get the intake swap done before I start on the power steering. It hit me when I got the intake on the bench that this is the first time on over 30 years that I haven't had at least one Tri Power car to drive.


TPDQ by M Patterson, on Flickr


The swap was pretty straight forward a bunch of little changes needed to be made that took up some time but all in all nothing really unexpected.

20180331_165142 by M Patterson, on Flickr

FL by M Patterson, on Flickr


I started out using the 575 CFM Cadillac carbs They worked well with synchronized linkage, but I was a little disappointed with them running progressive linkage. I could have played with them and gotten it better but figured what the heck the 625 CFM carbs were ready to go too so I went ahead and threw them on.......the Plymouth liked them a whole lot better with either the synchronized or progressive linkage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brTqZTMSoz4


Still have to fine tune the jetting and set the choke but overall I pretty happy with the change.

I got the carbs pretty much dialed in so I figure sometime next week I’ll get started on the steering.

I decided that when I do the power steering conversion I’d go ahead and change over to one of the smaller Chrysler high torque starters that they started using them in the late 80s-early 90s. I have one on the Hemi in the 37 Dodge and am pretty impressed with it.

Anyway I ordered one and when it came in I thought it looked smaller than the one on the 37, so I checked. Sure enough the snout was the same configuration but the starter was quite a bit smaller.

MS1 by M Patterson, on Flickr


MS2 by M Patterson, on Flickr


The parts book show both interchange with each other. I’m going to go with the bigger one (it’s the same as the one on the 37). I was just wondering if anybody has used the smaller style or knows performance wise how it compares with the larger one.

Ha, ha: You made me realize I haven't had a carbed vehicle for over a year now after 45 years of having at least one.

I have recently discovered that a 1957 plymouth uses the same springs as early B bodies and all the A bodies.

Front segment = 20"
Rear segment = 35"
Total length = 55"
I ended up ordering a pair of Caltrac monoleaf springs for my '57. I told them I wanted a pair for a 1962 dodge with a one inch drop.
The car sits exactly where it did with the pair of springs I ordered from espo springs, which I also requested with a 1" drop.
http://www.springsnthings.com/