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Re: B3 Racings's Indy EZ's & T&D rocker arm geometry correction [Re: jbc426] #2336085
07/12/17 06:52 PM
07/12/17 06:52 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,204
Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
Cab_Burge  Offline
I Win
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,204
Bend,OR USA
I've ran a similar grind solid roller in my old pump gas stroker 400 motor, it had 260@.050 intake side with .420 lobe lift, 266@.050 with .409 lobe lift ground on a 108 LSA installed at 105 and 106 ILC. That cam worked very well, especially when I changed the rocker arm ratio from 1.5 to 1.65 boogie work
As far as stock covers and the internal baffles, the rocker arms you use will influence the results to get them to clear shruggy
I've had customers who insisted on running stock covers that ended up drilling large enough holes in the baffles to clear the adjusters without removing the baffles shruggy work grin
IHTHs thumbs
As Al has said already, many different ways to skin the kitties work


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: B3 Racings's Indy EZ's & T&D rocker arm geometry correction [Re: jbc426] #2336107
07/12/17 07:33 PM
07/12/17 07:33 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206
New York
polyspheric Offline
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polyspheric  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206
New York
I'm not sure I'm comfortable with what some factory engineer have said about rocker geo.
I have it on very good authority that Chrysler believes and says that the stock RB pallet location and curvature completely eliminates all scrubbing motion, and the pallet rolls continuously back and forth on the stem tip.

Except that this is physically impossible.

I agree that 1/3 @ 90 degrees has worked well, but that then just poses the next question: (A) is that how it was designed, or (B) only how it's adjusted, and, if B what was the original pivot position?


Boffin Emeritus
Re: B3 Racings's Indy EZ's & T&D rocker arm geometry correction [Re: jbc426] #2336376
07/13/17 08:14 AM
07/13/17 08:14 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 361
nj pine beach
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nj pine beach
Dwayne also has done all my head work in the past on my Kids s/b 360 and my B/B. Had the same issues with geometry and had Mike at B3 make both systems for the 2 race cars. The 360 was the worst on the iron heads with harland sharp rockers I believe we moved the shaft .450 and extended the push rod .500 . I had to add valve cover extensions for the clearances with M T cast covers. The engine has a different sound and has picked up from 11:50s to 11:30s. in similar air. These guys are the best when it comes to service and advise. Thanks Guys.

Re: B3 Racings's Indy EZ's & T&D rocker arm geometry correction [Re: jbc426] #2338791
07/18/17 12:48 AM
07/18/17 12:48 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,050
Shelby Twp. Mi
HardcoreB Offline
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Posts: 4,050
Shelby Twp. Mi
Originally Posted By jbc426
I posted on here last fall regarding a valve train instability issue that Dwayne Porter deduced was the result of valve float due to too low of spring pressure resulting from incorrect valve spring height and possibly bad valve springs while running a hydraulic roller cam.

It almost cost me a motor, but I caught the carnage beginning when I did a routine inspection and pulled the valve cover. I had blown the needle bearing cages out of all the exhaust rocker arms, bent several pushrods slightly and could see the cage material laying in my heads. I feel I was really lucky, as the car had just taken a first place in our annual Mopar Alley car show, and I had blipped it up to about 140 mph(on the track) on my way home. It was still running great, so I thought.

Under Dwayne's review of the cause of the issue, he found that this problem was already apparent on the initial dyno pull sheets, as indicated by the sudden drop in power at 5400 rpm. The motor was making 684 hp just before that drop.

I had Dwayne go completely through the heads and replace ALL the hardware and set them up for use with a solid roller. I went with the Isky red Zone bushed lifters for my street engine. Dwayne is a great man to do business with, and a true visionary in his field.

While the heads were off, Dwayne helped me spec out some custom Ross replacement pistons to reduce my compression enough to switch from race gas to pump gas. The compression drop was from 12.2 to 1 down to 10.2 to 1. The pistons came in around 514 grams. This motor has a very low reciprocating weight, and should love to rev, so I wanted to make sure I never had valve train instability problems again. I used top shelf components and took the extra step of correcting the rocker arm geometry.

I had my 1.6 to 1 T&D roller rockers rebuilt at T&D and put them on the heads. The geometry seemed way off with the roller tip reaching well above the centerline of the rocker shaft and the adjuster screw at a pretty step angle in relation to the pushrods. I still have the rebuilt set if anyone wants a deal on them.

I contacted Mike at B3 Racing and followed his instructions to get the measurements he needed to make a correction kit. As it turns out he was working on a similar project at his shop. He said in my case the geometry was so far off from ideal, that I would need to have custom rockers made by T&D. He figured out all the measurements and I had my parts a few weeks later. Mike is another great guy to do business with, and I highly recommend both men if you are locking for this type of work.

I know a lot of people on here are skeptical of this type of geometry correction, but the results speak for themselves. All you have to do to see if correcting your rocker arm geometry is worthwhile, is to look at my before and after pictures. It's such a dramatic difference, in my mind a guy would be crazy not to make this correction.

I consulted with Manton Pushrods shop foreman and upsized my pushrods to their 7/16" Stage 5 pushrods. Here is another business that provides exceptional customer service. Dwayne had increased the pushrod clearance on my heads when he had them apart and the thicker pushrods have plenty of clearance now.

I'll let the pictures of Mike's geometry correction solution do the rest of the talking on the subject of, "Is it worth taking this extra step".


Mike, I'm curious to know why you didn't make your adaptive eccentric base and cap fit the .750" diameter of the pivot shaft? That would help offset some of the height stack-up from its mounting base. It now fits the O.D. of the adaptive sleeves.

Re: B3 Racings's Indy EZ's & T&D rocker arm geometry correction [Re: HardcoreB] #2338925
07/18/17 10:45 AM
07/18/17 10:45 AM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
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B3RE Offline
mopar
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
Well, a couple reasons, actually. First, the spacers on the T&D shafts help locate the rockers, not just the hold downs. Second, I pre-machine the materials as much as possible to reduce manufacturing lead time. They are pretty labor intensive, so any changes from the norm is more expensive. And lastly, the roughly.060" shaft spacer thickness being transferred to the aluminum crescent spacer, has no effect on anything stability wise. Six of one, half dozen of another.


Mike Beachel

I didn't write the rules of math nor create the laws of physics, I am just bound by them.
Re: B3 Racings's Indy EZ's & T&D rocker arm geometry correction [Re: Sxrxrnr] #2406201
11/20/17 02:43 AM
11/20/17 02:43 AM
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 257
Way North Idaho
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1KoolBee Offline
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 257
Way North Idaho
Originally Posted By Sxrxrnr
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmodromic_valve

Desmodromic valve control 1896. Interesting read. There is not much that has not been around for decades or even centuries.


Ducati has been using for years, imagine no valve springs and 20k rpm limit. The downside is my 996 Duc is a 90 degree v-twin with 4 cams and 16 rocker arms! Hauls a**, but what a PITA to maintain!


'68 Bee 383/TF/Factory Air...high school sweetheart
'67 GTX Clone project,500 six pack,Hemi4-speed,Dana
05 Dodge Viper, 505 V-10, 6-speed Tremec
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