Ups could have these in Dwayne's hands in mere days, and back shortly thereafter...

You are correct. This is what I have been saying all along. My misunderstanding is at fault in believing that I should be measuring from the head surface and not the top of the bottom base or shim.

I now grasp that what I should have for the installed spring height is the actual compressed length of the spring itself, after it has been squozen between the upper retainer and the lower base or shim, not from the head to the bottom of the retainer. Spring height is in a sense a misnomer which confused me.

Therefore my spring pressures may be higher than recommended if my original measurements are correct, which remains somewhat uncertain subject to how well I have visualized the spring's position at its actual contact point at the shrouded upper retainer lower surface. This .060 could increase pressures substantially, I have not a clue as to by how much until I can measure them.

Without the specified tool as your photo of John's spring height measurement illustrates, this appears to be a bit problematic for me.

I believe however if I remove a regular valve spring and replace with a ' test' spring this will be simpler in obtaining a correct measurement using a caliper. I do not understand the purpose of a test lifter(however which I do have) in obtaining this spring height measurement. Unless possibly your concern is rocker arm retainer contact in the event that installed height must be corrected.

Tomorrow if the ordered valve spring tester should arrive, I will measure spring pressures.
I would have this question: If all pressures remain within CC's specifications and no coils are binding(which they are not) and no rocker/retainer contact is noted,,,are all systems go regardless if installed heights are shy by your .060 thousandths figure? My theory being with springs no longer new, they likely have already lost 10 to 20 percent of initial pressures.

This has been a learning experience for me in an area of engine technology(cams and valve trains specifically) where I suspect very few outside of the industry understand slightly and fewer still understand well. I suspect there are on this forum of those who may not have become too bored with this thread and are still following our exchanges and particularly your commentary have learned as much as I have on this topic of "when things go wrong in your valve train and why they did and how do you fix it".

As a fellow Moparts forum member traveler stated to me earlier this evening, this shines a light onto and exposes a previous little dark corner of the Mopar world.

You have to use a solid lifter, if not the hydro lifter push rod seat will compress as the lobe of the cam comes up, the valve wont start to open until the push rod seat bottoms out in the lifter, the solid lifter set with 0 lash starts opening the valve as soon as the cam lobe starts lifting the lifter. This has nothing to do with the installed spring height, this is to check for the actual lift at the valve.

Yes, this I understand, my misunderstanding was that I was to be concerned about this in dealing with spring height measurement.

I have found and obtained what I will call an adjustable solid roller lifter, BB Mopar specfic to assist in establishing pushrod length and actual valve lift, thereby eliminating the concern of the the pushrod seats requirement to bottom out before valve any movement occurs.

This also allows you to use your normal production pushrods and not require the switch to a solid lifter pushrod of likely a differing length when checking actual valve lift.

It looks like you have 3 options here, Roger. Order up a spring height measuring tool like Dwayne's, stuff some rope through the spark plug hole, pop off the retainer and measure the height accurately, take the heads off and take them to a shop, or continue to guestimate and roll the dice.

I would also put the windage tray back in your motor. I had to modify mine slightly to fit, but the Milidon tray does fit with the Road Race pan. Mine is off now, if you want to match the cuts.

Exactly.
You need to know the net lift, at the valve, with full spring pressure to determine if the springs are set up properly and won't cause problems.
This will also tell you what your net effective rocker ratio is.

To determine if things are going to be problematic or not, you need to know;
- spring installed height
- true spring coil bind height
- net full lift at the valve

You should have at least .050-.060 remaining spring travel from net peak lift to true coil bind height.

A spring height mic is not needed to get accurate measurements. You just need to be measuring the right way/right thing.
I'm sure his 1.885 reading is within a few thou of actual......so, take out the .060 for the cup....... You're at 1.825.

Replace the std locks with +.050 locks, and you should be fine.

I hate to seem like a "know it all", but....... As soon as I saw the heads assembled with the std locks, I was 99.999% sure the installed height was shorter than "normal".

More speculating.......

Had the springs been set up at 1.880-ish, and the motor run with Driven HR 10w40 synthetic motor oil........ The OP would still be happily motoring along, and would be perfectly happy with his Scorpion lifters.

Several set of those have been installed in BBC marine motors around here, which all get hammered pretty good for hours on end...... And I haven't heard of any failing yet.

Those are all running either 15w40, 25w40, or 20w50 oil.

I reviewed notes taken by me when Eddy performer heads were converted to beehive valve springs when first installing heads and switching from flat tappet hydraulic lifters to hydraulic roller with Scorpion lifters.

These notes confirmed my conversation with machinists, Mike Angelo where he had called me to voice a concern that CC instructions for setting up valve springs with a seat pressure of 155 pounds at an install height of 1.886 inches. He wondered if this might be excessive and suggested could reduced to a more nominal 110 pounds by installing 10 degree keepers.

I then called CC for their input. Was told by CC tech that 155 pounds at 1.886 was recommended. This past Monday, I called and spoke with Angelo. He remembered all of this and did go with CC's recommendations and set up heads accordingly. CC accosting my notes suggested 155 pounds that would break in and settle at 140 pounds.

I would think that if I were experiencing any coil bind issue at all, that those springs subject to it would not have taken 3,000 miles in the most recent collapsed lifter failure nor 800 miles in the much earlier failure.

As of now, I fully agree with the cause of failure is attributed to the analysis as put forth by Porter and detailed further by Joe of Johnson SEC, was oil foaming, with contributing factors as laid out by Johnson SEC(lifter manufacturer) of only having given a lifter preload of 1/2 turn following their at that time instructions, instead of their now recommended 1 full turn from preset,,,,plus an improved metallurgical materials as used in the failing oil control disc that sits directly under the pushrod cup of the lifter.

As noted in my earlier posting recapping my conversation with Joe of Johnson. Was fascinated by his description of how oil foaming sets up the chain of events leading to catastrophic failure of lifter. Foaming creates a compressible oil situation. This leads to a gap between rocker arm roller and valve stem that nominally should always be at zero clearance on hydraulic lifters, this causes a massive shock when rocker contact valve stem that is then broadcast via pushrod to pushrod cup then that slams this oil control disc until ultimate failure occurs. Also in effects defeats the purpose of cam ramping action prior to valve opening time.
Solid rollers of course do not experience this phenomenon as their life and death does not depend on pressurized oil and does not have this disc that is subject to failure.

UPS just now dropped off valve spring pressure tester. As spring height tool is not too expensive, most likely to order one up,,,,now that you all have convinced me of the value in properly setting all up. At times however,,,,,wonder how I ever got by with just a few hand tools from Sears and perhaps a ruler and a few other such hi tech tools that most of us grew up with. And our old cars still seemed to quite well then.

John. Perhaps I will stop by Friday and borrow Dwayne's spring height tool while you are putting his new Eddy heads on his car.

Hats off to you guys for putting the effort into this. Hydraulic rollers interest me, but I heard about a few too many folks having trouble with them I figured I'd be safer with solid rollers instead. (that was circa 2001). Maybe things have improved now(?).

Frankly, I'm confused by the op's last post.

He measured the installed height for himself, and after waaaaay too much discussion about it, it seems the installed height is actually not 1.885, but rather 1.825.

He has determined this by measuring it himself....... Yet when the person who put them together tells him they're set up at 1.885, he accepts that's as correct info....... Even though he has found that not to be the case.

I don't know who put the heads together, but anyone who is recommending 110bs of seat pressure for a Mopar big block hydraulic roller application......especially one that has fast ramps......... Doesn't seem to be up to date with what are the normal practices for these motors.

IMO, more measuring at this point isn't really necessary to move forward......
Swap out the locks for some +.050's, install the new lifters, run thicker oil......done.

If there is no windage tray, I'd probably put that back in.

I disagree with the foaming oil "creating a gap" at the valve.
There is a spring under the pushrod cup, which is what maintains the zero lash condition after the motor is shut off.
There wouldn't be a gap at the valve even if there was nothing in the lifter but air.

The foaming oil compresses under the load of the valve spring during the lift cycle, which allows the plunger to crush the disc inside the lifter.
The only way there can be a gap in the valvetrain is if the lifter has collapsed and the plunger is stuck in the "down" position.

God bless all of ya. I would never make it in the service industry.

Trust me Russ.......... I've been really close to "tapping out" a few times here.

I'm glad you stuck it out, Dwayne. I enjoy and learn a lot from your explanations and sharing of your experience. Thank you for indulging us.

I'll talk further with Roger this weekend. He's a good man.

To end all debate on my installed height, I ordered up a CC spring install height micrometer, specifically designed for beehive springs,,,,,yea guess they are different enough to not allow use of the regular low priced by everyone spread. I strongly believe that my efforts to achieve an accurate spring height measurement was lame at best, particularly doing so with a caliper and the spring remaining in position in the way and tucked as it is under the upper retainer and mispositioned at the spring seat. My experience in this area is almost nil at best.

I agree that Angelo could remotely have been in error, will not know until I measure the height which is what he set using CC's recommendations. In support of him, who I believe is a good competent machinist in a small town shop, he likely does not often deal with high performance engines, in particular BB Mopars with their idiosyncratic characteristics. If in error not yet in evidence he deserves a pass from me. He certainly had the sense to call me when he had doubts regarding CC's instructions, which prompted me to call CC for verification. I do not believe that any errors that he might have made contributed to my issues unless proven otherwise by further analysis and measurement. I suspect that if it were his errors, that it would not have taken 100's or even thousands of miles of miles(some at over 6,000 rpm) before experiencing the 2 failures witnessed.

I fully subscribe to the oil foaming postulate as put forth initially by Dwayne and again by technical Engineer Joe of Johnson SEC,,,,,no manner the method initiated and by what.
I believe either's theory has credence, however Dwayne's sounds more the likely as his argument regarding the internal lifter spring maintains zero gap is persuasive. Interesting that of the at least one dozen personnel that I spoke to at these many valve train firms, no one else suggested an oil aeration issue, nor what might relieve it as a possible cause of lifter failure.

The use of a heavier oil with less foaming tendencies and the tightening down a full turn from set point as recommended by Johnson SEC has very strong merit, also giving a quieter valve train relief to the usual big block notorious Mopar underhood cancaphony would be welcomed by most owners. Additionally with the claim of revised internals of the hydraulic roller now sold by both Isky and Crower, manufacturered still by Johnson SEC , perhaps all will be again well.

[quote=fast68plymouth]Frankly, I'm confused by the op's last post.

He measured the installed height for himself, and after waaaaay too much discussion about it, it seems the installed height is actually not 1.885, but rather 1.825.

I dont even want to comment, but can't help it. I just lost a good 30 minutes of my life, reading all this...holy cow. Dwayne and I agree 100% on this, less the oil choices, and we're close enough there to call it good. I have a buddy who does a LOT of BBC marine engines, mostly all blown 2 and 3 screw boats, ALL hydraulic roller. Not going into all that, but lets just say, he isnt having issues. After all the analysis here, and the ( sorry) waste of a lot of time and money, there is one simple answer that will work, and its been mentioned many times, but seems to be getting brushed off for some reason? Just buy the Morels, make sure the heads are set up correctly ( as Dwayne has stated, probably one of the best Mopar cylinder head guys out there BTW, what he says is truth)I'm going to say it again, stop all the rambling, buy the Morels. Doesnt matter who packages them or who you buy them from, but your wasting a TON of time over an inevitable result. Chris Straub will more than handle your needs. Just in case no one heard me..( yes, inserting humor here) buy the Morels and please put this post to rest! Yes, I have experience with hydraulic roller Mopars, Chevies and Fords. By far, the Mopars are the more " problematic" of the bunch for several reasons ( no, I am not going to get into all that), but they WILL work, work fine, work in your application, and you can be back on the road. I would really consider if I were you, having someone look at those heads too. Just my opinion based what I have read here. Ok...signing out, going to go find some Excedrin!

Can't let it go quite yet Todd.......

I wanna see a pic of the new-made-special-for-beehive-retainers height mic in action!!

Btw...... I think Staub is a pretty strong proponent of the Driven HR 10w40 synthetic too

However, if I'm coming clean........ since I have a few cases of Brad Penn 15w40 sitting on the shelf........ that's what would go in it "if it were mine".

Yes, but its Easter, and I am promising myself to not get into grief counseling today!!!.Ah yes, specialty tools.....oh where to start!...

I know Morel in general, has some specific suggestions on oils. As you know, we all have our preferences, and you know the deal with the hyd rollers. I have been watching a lot of testing by Lake Speed Jr....still hasnt tested my Schaeffers brand, but its coming.I've always been a guy who tries to limit and diminish phsyco babble, and simply go with what is known to work.call me crazy..lol...ok...back to Sunday....Happy Easter everyone.

[quote=CompWedgeEngines][quote=fast68plymouth]Frankly, I'm confused by the op's last post.

He measured the installed height for himself, and after waaaaay too much discussion about it, it seems the installed height is actually not 1.885, but rather 1.825.

I dont even want to comment, but can't help it. I just lost a good 30 minutes of my life, reading all this...holy cow. Dwayne and I agree 100% on this, less the oil choices, and we're close enough there to call it good. I have a buddy who does a LOT of BBC marine engines, mostly all blown 2 and 3 screw boats, ALL hydraulic roller. Not going into all that, but lets just say, he isnt having issues. After all the analysis here, and the ( sorry) waste of a lot of time and money, there is one simple answer that will work, and its been mentioned many times, but seems to be getting brushed off for some reason? Just buy the Morels, make sure the heads are set up correctly ( as Dwayne has stated, probably one of the best Mopar cylinder head guys out there BTW, what he says is truth)I'm going to say it again, stop all the rambling, buy the Morels. Doesnt matter who packages them or who you buy them from, but your wasting a TON of time over an inevitable result. Chris Straub will more than handle your needs. Just in case no one heard me..( yes, inserting humor here) buy the Morels and please put this post to rest! Yes, I have experience with hydraulic roller Mopars, Chevies and Fords. By far, the Mopars are the more " problematic" of the bunch for several reasons ( no, I am not going to get into all that), but they WILL work, work fine, work in your application, and you can be back on the road. I would really consider if I were you, having someone look at those heads too. Just my opinion based what I have read here. Ok...signing out, going to go find some Excedrin!




Questions for the overwhelming majority of us who do not already know everything there is to know about Mopar BB valve trains with particular emphasis on hydraulic roller lifters.

*. Why Morel's rather than Johnson Sec(among others sold under Isky and Crower branding and manufactured in the USA). Not just opinion just as everyone has their favorite oils or gasolines, but hard evidence that they indeed are superior. Which Morel's,,,they sell one Mopar model under the Howard name at 450.00 per set and another so called race version at something like 1,200.00 per set of 16. Crower sets are at about 850.00 at Summit, which makes the Morel/Howard at 450.00,,,which would be a screaming deal especially if superior to others and better yet if USA manufacturer.

*. Hopefully will have the install height beehive CC tool to get an exact measurement tomorrow,,,,calipers and yardsticks be damned. Yes, i am a rookie at this as likely 95 percent of the non-pros and 9 second racers likely are on this forum. Many of us are trying to learn, however to be as informed as some who have uncounted years of experience is just not in the cards for most of us who are and always be merely be advanced hobbyists at best, so we tune in regularly to perhaps learn something of interest or value.

So some some unanswered questions even after the wearying manifesto that you have admittedly painfully endured.

1. I suspect my height install numbers on beehive springs will come out as they should be,,,,just the feeling that my machinist who set heads up did a good job. Given that if they are, and having today measured a number of my valve spring pressures(only on one bank as rockers are off left bank) using recently acquired LSM valve spring on car tester,,,I find pressures immediately off seat running about 130 pounds, whereas the were originally set at 155 pounds. Not horribly bad after a couple of years or so, but down 25 pounds. I was expecting perhaps 140 pounds.

I have ordered up a couple of shim sets to perhaps bring back to 150 or thereabouts.

The question becomes,,,,install spring heights will decrease some amount by shimming. What are if any the potential ramifications of modest decreases of install height beyond the increased possibility of spring bind?

Right now just eyeballing my right bank rocker arms, which again are still mounted,,,,there is a very wide gap between the coils of each spring(remember beehive, only a single spring per valve. Adding a .050 shim would appear to have little significance to the gap between coils,,,,how much pressure would this add at valve close time.

How does one accurately measure potential for spring bind while mounted on engine. Is their any other potential downside to shimming to regain spring pressure, and by doing so any other potential downsides other than spring bind. Or must they be measured on the bench.

Another question that I have pondered, a bit more complicated. Using the LSM pressure tool, you measured pressure when on valves fully seated,,,,lifter on cam heel. Possibly can do so for open,,,,I will call them tomorrow. By the way, I am quite pleased with this company and their responsiveness. Before you but this tool elsewhere, call and speak to Heidi directly. I have another tool made by a LSM competitor in spring testing,,,it appears of very low quality. The LSM product appears of very well engineered and high quality. Both companies sell at Summit and Amazon. Just saying

If one were to measure spring pressure on a valve that is full open,,,lifter peak of lobe,,,would I have an accurate reading for open valve spring pressure if I tugged on the handle of the tool just enough to have created a minuscule rocker arm to valve stem gap?

A somewhat related imponderable would be if I had say 150 pounds at valve seated, and knew the spring tension characteristics and rocker arm ratio, could the open valve pressure be calculated without actually measuring it. In simpler terms, does one even need to know open pressures to reliably assume springs are still sound if closed is known? Are tensions linear from full closed to full open.

For those who believe this thread is wasted time and space,,,,delete or bypass is an option available to all,,,Jeeeze,,,,I have seen 47 pages of discussions on Jamie Passon's 5 speed over some 4 years,,,I still check it out from time to time and I do not even have one in my future,,,,I suspect that many forum members have gotten far more useful out of some of the expertise bantered about on this thread, particularly with Porters shared insights.

By the way Dwayne, the Hot Rod oil you recommend, who is the manufacturer, is it Lucas? I have used synthetic for years should I not? Has zinc any value to an engine not running a flat tappet cam?

The entire subject of hydraulic rollers , who manufacturers them and who markets them, and why they often fail has been a big black hole for myself, it is no longer.

Any typos I will correct later

Yes, I did with a Caliper and the spring still mounted about the valve, measure 1.884,,,I will repeat, I had stated in several prior posts that I had measured from bottom side of retainer and the surface of the head, and with design of retainer, almost impossible to determine where spring coils were contacting retainer for an accurate estimate.

It was only much later in the discussion that Porter noticed that I was measuring the bottom of the spring from the surface of the head, and posted this observation,,,and not the spring so called "seat".

Once he noticed this he said I was off by .050 or .060 as that is the depth of the seat. I agreed. This is where 1.825 or so came in.

Where did I get the information to measure from the surface of the head, I very carefully read this information from 2 different should have known,,,,websites that stated to measure from head surface,,,URL's upon request. Reflecting now, I can only assume that these sites likely were not thinking aluminum,,,subject to gauling,,,,and only cast iron.

My first time hitting my first tennis balls I was not very good either,,,even though I read a lot of books on tennis as I was taking up the sport.