Re: Newly installed six pack questions
[Re: domingo]
#2271580
03/18/17 04:34 AM
03/18/17 04:34 AM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179 California
mickm
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OP
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Posts: 4,179
California
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Install a wideband sensor and gauge on your car and check out whats actually happening with the air/fuel ratio. its the cheaper route
Or get an innovate LM2 from INNOVATE. get the dual sensor unit.
Anything else is guesswork....you are playing with a HEMI I think it would be a good thing to have...mistakes on air fuel ratio can be expensive on that engine! got one.
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Re: Newly installed six pack questions
[Re: mickm]
#2271719
03/18/17 12:44 PM
03/18/17 12:44 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670 Lima, Peru
domingo
EL Master
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EL Master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,670
Lima, Peru
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Install a wideband sensor and gauge on your car and check out whats actually happening with the air/fuel ratio. its the cheaper route
Or get an innovate LM2 from INNOVATE. get the dual sensor unit.
Anything else is guesswork....you are playing with a HEMI I think it would be a good thing to have...mistakes on air fuel ratio can be expensive on that engine! got one. Well then it should not be too hard! Have u got metering plates with removeable jets on the outboards? if not get some from Pro form. Then after that is not much different that adjusting a Holley 4160 really. At least I have been able to tune mine pretty easy....but they all have been on stock displacement engines and witht the stock intake manifolds.
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Re: Newly installed six pack questions
[Re: mickm]
#2272894
03/20/17 12:07 PM
03/20/17 12:07 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,062 U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,062
U.S.S.A.
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I hope you mean one set at a time. well, I thought that if I put the full light one in the front, and the full heavy one in the rear, then if under full throttle the front of the car lifts, then I'll know the front one is correct, and if the rear of the car lifts, then I'll know the rear one is correct. Right? if the front is running correct, that should give the front cylinders power right away, so that will lift the front end, as that is where the power is coming from, and if the rear one is correct, the rear of the car will lift, as all the power is coming from the rear cylinders. Should be a simple test, no? Did you type that with a straight face ...
running up my post count some more .
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Re: Newly installed six pack questions
[Re: domingo]
#2272901
03/20/17 12:16 PM
03/20/17 12:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,062 U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,062
U.S.S.A.
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You can also get some idle needles that you can adjust at an angle with a special tool (better and cheaper solutiuon that the Pro Form Baseplates with the angled needles).
Scott Smith at HARMS can probably tell u where to get them.
Goodbye to removing carbs. you can set your idle while the engine is running. Also getting the front and rear carbs set up with the adjustable idle screws is the proper way to set them up but the signal to the carbs, and how the engine reacts to the adjustment, is not going to be the same front to rear, how the engine runs with the carb on the front and then switched to the rear is not going to be the same. Also suggesting what jets and PV works best on a 440 is not going to be the same because he has an engine that is 100 cubic inches BIGGER .... (not directed at you D)
running up my post count some more .
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Re: Newly installed six pack questions
[Re: mickm]
#2273675
03/21/17 02:15 PM
03/21/17 02:15 PM
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 411 Harleysville, PA USA
Tommy D
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 411
Harleysville, PA USA
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One thing I didn't see mentioned in this thread is float level. If the float level on all three carbs is not correct, the tuning you do will be in vein. Set the float levels first (with the car running). I set mine so the fuel runs out of the sight gauge with a slight bump of the fender. Then set the air fuel mixture on all three carbs, starting with the center carb. If you purchased two sets of springs from Holley, read the instructions before changing the springs. I agree that the looser (yellow) springs will typically show a bog due to too much fuel at one time. I started with the yellows and was rewarded with a zoooo-whhaaaa. That is not good and as mentioned earlier, the transition from idle to secondary should be "seamless". You can test this by taking the car for a ride. Get it into high gear at around 50 mph. Floor the throttle and note the smoothness of the transition from 2bbl to 6bbl. I run the purple or brown springs (I currently have one of each) in the outboard carbs. They are mechanically connected by the driver's side linkage. In order for them to open, the center carb must be at wide open throttle (WOT). Once in that position, the vacuum will be allowed overcome the springs to open the outboard carbs. The road test mentioned above is easier if you have a manual valve body, or a 4-speed. Automatics with kick-down linkage will want to down shift. I believe you have a 4-speed, so no issues. Good luck. Nice car. You'll love the 6bbl once sorted out. Good gas mileage and great performance.
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Re: Newly installed six pack questions
[Re: JohnRR]
#2275435
03/24/17 03:45 PM
03/24/17 03:45 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179 California
mickm
OP
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OP
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Posts: 4,179
California
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I hope you mean one set at a time. well, I thought that if I put the full light one in the front, and the full heavy one in the rear, then if under full throttle the front of the car lifts, then I'll know the front one is correct, and if the rear of the car lifts, then I'll know the rear one is correct. Right? if the front is running correct, that should give the front cylinders power right away, so that will lift the front end, as that is where the power is coming from, and if the rear one is correct, the rear of the car will lift, as all the power is coming from the rear cylinders. Should be a simple test, no? Did you type that with a straight face ... John, I was wondering if anyone was going to comment on that! No, I was laughing the whole time I was typing!
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Re: Newly installed six pack questions
[Re: mickm]
#2279153
03/30/17 10:18 PM
03/30/17 10:18 PM
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Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 5,183
Porter67
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Posts: 5,183
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I do not understand why people will not give you the proper help when they have the same information as many others.
If you read the guide you will learn: A properly tuned six pak starts easily hot or cold. The transition to the secondaries should be seamless. If there is a bog - the bog is a LEAN bog. The fuel levels are different that what has been suggested. Use the carter street pump and 195 degree thermostat.
These do not apply to every build and maybe thats why its not so popular, might be good for a 275hp 340 or a 390 440 but all that crap dont apply to most situations.
Simple things like, not everyone runs a choke, a heat crossover, some cars never get over 180 degrees. Some run modified intakes, camshaft, rear gear, converter, personal driving habbits, already made modifications, compression,some run spacers...
Maybe in the all stock world those are things to live by but hardly in modified setting.
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Re: Newly installed six pack questions
[Re: Porter67]
#2280505
04/01/17 07:46 PM
04/01/17 07:46 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179 California
mickm
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Well, it's getting there. EV2, you are correct. When the bog hit, the 02 sensor went off the scale lean.
So I put the purple spring in, bog almost gone. Put the clear spring in, bog completely gone, at least at 1/2 throttle. Haven't tested full throttle yet, as I have a little issue where the reproduction return spring isn't strong enough to close the throttle under WOT, and it hangs for a couple of seconds, not a nice feeling. So need to fix that before I want to lay into it.
So far:
- 4.5 PV - 66 jets - starts immediately hot or cold - bog gone, at least on 1/2 throttle - my one WOT run A/F was steady at 12.6 - cruise is around 14 or so - idle seems to bounce around, sometimes it's 14-15 and sometimes 15-17 - it's lean off idle into the main circuit, and I can feel it as a slight stumble - also, not using the idle solenoid
Getting close!
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Re: Newly installed six pack questions
[Re: Porter67]
#2280508
04/01/17 07:48 PM
04/01/17 07:48 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179 California
mickm
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179
California
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I do not understand why people will not give you the proper help when they have the same information as many others.
If you read the guide you will learn: A properly tuned six pak starts easily hot or cold. The transition to the secondaries should be seamless. If there is a bog - the bog is a LEAN bog. The fuel levels are different that what has been suggested. Use the carter street pump and 195 degree thermostat.
These do not apply to every build and maybe thats why its not so popular, might be good for a 275hp 340 or a 390 440 but all that crap dont apply to most situations.
Simple things like, not everyone runs a choke, a heat crossover, some cars never get over 180 degrees. Some run modified intakes, camshaft, rear gear, converter, personal driving habbits, already made modifications, compression,some run spacers...
Maybe in the all stock world those are things to live by but hardly in modified setting. I've set the fuel level to be in the middle of the sight glass on the outer carbs, per Mike Goyette's suggestion. Am using the carter street pump with a regulator, which should be set to around 6lbs, I'll have to double check that. Why the 195 thermostat? I have a 160 in there now, and it likes to hover at 170 or so.
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Re: Newly installed six pack questions
[Re: mickm]
#2281080
04/02/17 07:37 PM
04/02/17 07:37 PM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 223 Oreland Pa
clonedshaker+6
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 223
Oreland Pa
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well it seams like everyone has there 2 cents BUT that bog/hesitation you get when you start laying on the throttle and the seconardies are opening is a LEAN BOG, the secondary carbs have no accelerator pumps so when those 2x500cfm carbs open up at the same time, that engine is getting a lot of extra air and it takes a bit for the fuel to catch up(the reason your primary has an accelerator pump). putting heavier springs in the seconardies will slow them and make the transition smoother. I have an LM2 in my car to watch the Air/Fuel and you can watch it go lean for a slit second
71 challenger 440 sixpack shaker *CLONE* (71challenger 440+6 shaker clone FAST/my HS grad present) 03 mustang Mach 1 (daily driver)
11.35 @ 121.5 4 SPEED on F60-15s w/ 6/32 tread
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Re: Newly installed six pack questions
[Re: mickm]
#2282197
04/04/17 01:36 PM
04/04/17 01:36 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,179 California
mickm
OP
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OP
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Posts: 4,179
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Well, things are good, but the DOH! factor did slip in.
The bog was completely gone, and I finally got a chance to get it out and put my foot to the floor. Disappointing, and didn't feel like the first few times I took it out. Well, ~935CFM on a dual plane is not going to perform like 1350CFM on a single plane, but I still wasn't at all happy.
Went at it again the next day, and the vacuum line to the rear carb was off! Which I assume means it probably wasn't even bringing the front one in very much!
Ok, so I'm now sitting with the clear spring in, and have to start trying different springs again. It still has a bog, but is less than what it previously was, and it's back to being an animal!
Onwards...
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