Throttle Body Injection, how much hp?
#2246323
02/03/17 02:21 AM
02/03/17 02:21 AM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,145 Arizona, USA
gsmopar
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,145
Arizona, USA
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I'm considering FAST, Holley, FiTech, etc... for a 900+hp pump gas hemi. Has anyone done this successfully and if so, which product did you use?
The engine is an aluminum 604 Hemi with just under 0.700 roller cam. I want to run Pro Street N/A Drag Week 2018 and/or Drag Weekend. The increased drive-ability of FI is tempting, but I haven't seen many (any) higher HP combos with the plug 'n play throttle body injection systems.
This will be a single throttle body setup.
Thanks!
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Re: Throttle Body Injection, how much hp?
[Re: gsmopar]
#2246328
02/03/17 02:25 AM
02/03/17 02:25 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,243 Charlotte, North Carolina
sgcuda
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,243
Charlotte, North Carolina
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Fuel injection might be more precise and accurate than a carburetor, but an engine peaks power with a proper a/f ratio. Injection will not give you more hp than a good carb.
[image][/image]
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Re: Throttle Body Injection, how much hp?
[Re: gsmopar]
#2246336
02/03/17 02:58 AM
02/03/17 02:58 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225 Charleston
sixpackgut
Drag Week Mod Champion
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Drag Week Mod Champion
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
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I routinely make fun of people with fuel injection. Most cars dont idle or do anything better than my Thumpercarb did. A proper return style fuel system goes a long way when your in bumper to bumper traffic for hours on end
Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135 Follow @g3hemiswap on instagram
performance only racing, CRT, ultimate converter, superior design concepts, ThumperCarbs
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Re: Throttle Body Injection, how much hp?
[Re: gsmopar]
#2246435
02/03/17 11:37 AM
02/03/17 11:37 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345 Marysville, O-H-I-O
70Cuda383
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
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Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
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As said, EFI won't make more hp. Hp is a function of proper timing and proper fuel ratio.
But those who make fun of EFI users don't understand the technology or advantages of computer controlled electronics.
Timing advance is limited to the curve of the weights in the distributor. EFI allows for infinitely adjustable timing curves to dial in efficiency and power at any throttle setting, any RPM.
Likewise on fuel delivery. Regardless of RPM or throttle, you can tweak your fuel delivery, to include completely shutting off the injectors at high vacuum, high RPM, 0% throttle. In other words, closed throttle coasting in gear; which can help increase fuel economy ever so slightly.
Carbs are cheap, easy to use, and effective, but EFI is superior in tuneability and efficiency.
**Photobucket sucks**
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Re: Throttle Body Injection, how much hp?
[Re: gsmopar]
#2246466
02/03/17 12:43 PM
02/03/17 12:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,079 Tulsa OK
Bad340fish
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,079
Tulsa OK
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What is selling you on wanting to go throttle body?
Don't let the self tuning marketing steer you.
Go with a carb or port EFI. The tuning is not difficult, its easier than fine tuning a carburetor that is for sure.
The bonus of going to fuel injection is that with the right system you get a fuel controller, an ignition controller, and a Datalogger all in one package.
I started with no EFI expierience and I have a few thousand miles on my EFI setup now and I would never go back.
Just like you can find people with crappy carb tunes you can find people with bad EFI tunes as well.
68 Barracuda Formula S 340
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Re: Throttle Body Injection, how much hp?
[Re: sgcuda]
#2246468
02/03/17 12:45 PM
02/03/17 12:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,079 Tulsa OK
Bad340fish
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,079
Tulsa OK
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Fuel injection might be more precise and accurate than a carburetor, but an engine peaks power with a proper a/f ratio. Injection will not give you more hp than a good carb. In most cases maybe not but if there is a distribution problem the right EFI system(and its not the most expensive) can adjust timing and fuel per cylinder.
68 Barracuda Formula S 340
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Re: Throttle Body Injection, how much hp?
[Re: 70Cuda383]
#2246477
02/03/17 01:06 PM
02/03/17 01:06 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,801 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Master of nothing...
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Master of nothing...
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,801
Benton, IL.
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As said, EFI won't make more hp. Hp is a function of proper timing and proper fuel ratio.
But those who make fun of EFI users don't understand the technology or advantages of computer controlled electronics.
Timing advance is limited to the curve of the weights in the distributor. EFI allows for infinitely adjustable timing curves to dial in efficiency and power at any throttle setting, any RPM.
Likewise on fuel delivery. Regardless of RPM or throttle, you can tweak your fuel delivery, to include completely shutting off the injectors at high vacuum, high RPM, 0% throttle. In other words, closed throttle coasting in gear; which can help increase fuel economy ever so slightly.
Carbs are cheap, easy to use, and effective, but EFI is superior in tuneability and efficiency.
All valid points. But after a half century of use, most guys today cannot/will not tune much more than the main circuit on their carbs. The real appeal of EFI for most guys is that IT'S SUPPOSED TO TUNE IT'S SELF. The reality is that sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. But let's be honest, getting the real advantages of port EFI with optimum timing curves is really beyond most guy's abilities. And probably beyond their desire to even try. Which explains the attraction of plug and play. The EFI that most muscle car guys buy is not much more than an electric carb whose benefits could be enjoyed with a carb that is properly tuned by a good carb tuner. And for a fraction of the money. Besides, the EFI system you buy today will be obsolete in a year and you may not be able to get key service parts in a few years. So while computer controlled fuel and ignition systems have the potential to be infinitely superior, it can only reach that potential in the hands of an experienced, competent tuner. Which, in the real world, rarely happens. Sorta like a carburetor.
Master, again and still
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Re: Throttle Body Injection, how much hp?
[Re: DaveRS23]
#2246484
02/03/17 01:21 PM
02/03/17 01:21 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,610 Indiana
EV2DEMON
The Camaro Kid
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The Camaro Kid
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,610
Indiana
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Besides, the EFI system you buy today will be obsolete in a year and you may not be able to get key service parts in a few years.
So while computer controlled fuel and ignition systems have the potential to be infinitely superior, it can only reach that potential in the hands of an experienced, competent tuner. Which, in the real world, rarely happens. Sorta like a carburetor.
While I don't necessarily agree, I can hear what you're saying about the ability of many to tune, but I think the reason most don't is because they simply don't want to learn. Much like a carb, there's nothing magic about EFI. Having the correct tools and a working knowledge of internal combustion engines can yield results for anyone who wants to take the time to do it correctly. I'd also be interested in hearing what EFI systems have become obsolete and/or unable to service? Exactly what service parts are you talking about?
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Re: Throttle Body Injection, how much hp?
[Re: gsmopar]
#2246888
02/03/17 11:27 PM
02/03/17 11:27 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,219 New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,219
New York
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All carburetors are at least partially self-adjusting to engine demand. No FI system is.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Throttle Body Injection, how much hp?
[Re: polyspheric]
#2246915
02/03/17 11:57 PM
02/03/17 11:57 PM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 198 Stinnett, Tx
rumblebee4232
member
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member
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 198
Stinnett, Tx
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All carburetors are at least partially self-adjusting to engine demand. No FI system is. How do you figure that?? Most fuel injection systems determine fuel needs based on throttle position,vacuum(aka engine load), O2 sensor readings, and some even measure fuel pressure..
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Re: Throttle Body Injection, how much hp?
[Re: polyspheric]
#2246919
02/04/17 12:02 AM
02/04/17 12:02 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540 Milwaukee WI
TRENDZ
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540
Milwaukee WI
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All carburetors are at least partially self-adjusting to engine demand. No FI system is. Seems baiting, but I'll bite. How "no FI system is." could you elaborate?
"use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"
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Re: Throttle Body Injection, how much hp?
[Re: gsmopar]
#2246952
02/04/17 01:03 AM
02/04/17 01:03 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345 Marysville, O-H-I-O
70Cuda383
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
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No FI system is self adjusting to engine demand?
Humph... news to me. I wonder why my EFI has air temperature sensors, air pressure sensors, and O2 sensors for no reason at all, since it doesn't automatically adjust to atmospheric conditions and engine demands?
Another example of someone who doesn't understand EFI, and therefor proclaims the superiority of carbs.
**Photobucket sucks**
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Re: Throttle Body Injection, how much hp?
[Re: gsmopar]
#2246956
02/04/17 01:08 AM
02/04/17 01:08 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345 Marysville, O-H-I-O
70Cuda383
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
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I'm not against carbs. They are cheaper than EFI, they can be tuned without a computer, they are effective. When tuned to deliver proper air fuel ratios, they make equal power. They can make for a much neater engine bay by not requiring wires, sensors, fuel lines, injectors/ports, etc.
But I sure am glad my daily drivers are computer controlled EFI systems.
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Re: Throttle Body Injection, how much hp?
[Re: Dragula]
#2246970
02/04/17 01:41 AM
02/04/17 01:41 AM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,145 Arizona, USA
gsmopar
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,145
Arizona, USA
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This is working for me as well my efi did....or better. I'm leaning towards the "devil I know." I researched the throttle body injection systems several months back out of pure curiosity and noticed all were 4150 flange. My new engine came with the MP/Barton single plane with the 4150 flange. I questioned the builder and they said that they use that intake with a tapered 4500 adapter to increase velocity. I thought that this might be a good time to really consider one of the new TB systems as I now have an intake that would bolt up without using a spacer. I'm a few weeks away from crossing that bridge. Just hoping to see a few examples of big cube high hp cars using a TB Plug and Play kit. Thanks!
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Re: Throttle Body Injection, how much hp?
[Re: gsmopar]
#2246994
02/04/17 02:13 AM
02/04/17 02:13 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345 Marysville, O-H-I-O
70Cuda383
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
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If you buy a TBI EFI system, and it self tunes, then you might as well just run a carb. To maximize the potential of EFI, you need sequential multi-port EFI, and to have a custom tune written either by yourself or a paid expert. Generic self learning won't take into account your combustion chamber shape, compression ratios, quench values, cam timing, etc in the timing tables. It may do a good job at hitting 12.5:1 at WOT and 14.7:1 at part throttle cruise, but that's like tuning your engine and never touching the distributor.
Not to mention the advantages to a dry manifold over a wet one, and a TBI is still a wet manifold.
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Re: Throttle Body Injection, how much hp?
[Re: gsmopar]
#2247063
02/04/17 06:00 AM
02/04/17 06:00 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,721 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,721
Bend,OR USA
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There are many dry 4500 throttle bodys out there I'm going to use dual 4150 1000 CFM dry throttle on the 572 C.I. pump gas hemi I'm building for a local customer so it will fit on the stock type Stage V EFI intake kit they offer with the 4150 bolt pattern Hopefully I'll be find a Shaker base plate to fit those throttle boys on that intake I will use dual 4500 throttle bodys on one of my motor with a tunnel ram intake with EFI also, hopefully soon
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 02/04/17 06:02 AM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Throttle Body Injection, how much hp?
[Re: gsmopar]
#2247074
02/04/17 09:33 AM
02/04/17 09:33 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345 Marysville, O-H-I-O
70Cuda383
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
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Yes there are dry tb EFI systems, but the op is asking about throttle body injection. Not mpfi
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