Re: 68 GTX Autocross Build for CAM Class
[Re: Bob J]
#2218844
12/22/16 09:00 AM
12/22/16 09:00 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 23,516 Here
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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Posts: 23,516
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I meant camber. If I can get -4 I can set it where I need it. -3 sounds like a good starting point with 0 toe. It may need about 1/8 toe out but we will see how the car is works. My Porsche I can only get -1.2 front and I have -1.8 in the back with 0 toe. I would love -3 on it but I can't run camber plates in Street class so that is all I can get from the adjustment. This should be interesting. Yes caster needs to be fixed on Mopars I'm not used to that as you leave Porsche at stock settings. Yes -3 camber is a ton and I wouldn't run over -1.5 on the street but this is a class car and very limited street use. Now lets see about large fronts and large amounts of negative camber. ASP and SSP Porsches with 285 18 fronts running -3 to -3.5 with Hoosers. Mike won the Dixie tour in his Fox body with 275 18 f and 335 18 Rival S with over -3 camber. I may only run -2 or -2.5 and the car maybe happy there but I will be going for the year end trophy. So I need to see how close I can get to 1.5g but I need to hit at least 1.3g. And that is a ton in a B body. I want the adjustment in case it's needed. I do run the complete season plus at least 1 champ Tour. Hey it's all good. The Porsche you refer to is a strut IFS, ie little camber gain design, liking more initial negative camber, unlike a Mopar unequal arm IFS?
"When one’s appeal is emotional, it does not matter if there is no substance."
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Re: 68 GTX Autocross Build for CAM Class
[Re: jcc]
#2218867
12/22/16 10:15 AM
12/22/16 10:15 AM
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Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 200 Colorado
Bob J
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I meant camber. If I can get -4 I can set it where I need it. -3 sounds like a good starting point with 0 toe. It may need about 1/8 toe out but we will see how the car is works. My Porsche I can only get -1.2 front and I have -1.8 in the back with 0 toe. I would love -3 on it but I can't run camber plates in Street class so that is all I can get from the adjustment. This should be interesting. Yes caster needs to be fixed on Mopars I'm not used to that as you leave Porsche at stock settings. Yes -3 camber is a ton and I wouldn't run over -1.5 on the street but this is a class car and very limited street use. Now lets see about large fronts and large amounts of negative camber. ASP and SSP Porsches with 285 18 fronts running -3 to -3.5 with Hoosers. Mike won the Dixie tour in his Fox body with 275 18 f and 335 18 Rival S with over -3 camber. I may only run -2 or -2.5 and the car maybe happy there but I will be going for the year end trophy. So I need to see how close I can get to 1.5g but I need to hit at least 1.3g. And that is a ton in a B body. I want the adjustment in case it's needed. I do run the complete season plus at least 1 champ Tour. Hey it's all good. The Porsche you refer to is a strut IFS, ie little camber gain design, liking more initial negative camber, unlike a Mopar unequal arm IFS? Like I said the car may not like it. You go with want you know till you learn it will not work or you are told what to start with from someone that knows and you find out that works. That is why I'm here is to learn.
07 Porsche C2 997.1 6spd DD and SCCA Solo II SS 68 Plymouth GTX Convert. 493cu Hotkiss Wilwood Classic air, Building for Solo II Cam 65 Chrysler 300 Convert. project 57 Desoto 2dr. Firesweep 392 Hemi,Wilwood Project with son 2003 Dodge Dakota R/T "DEAD"
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Re: 68 GTX Autocross Build for CAM Class
[Re: Bob J]
#2218950
12/22/16 12:34 PM
12/22/16 12:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,406 Pikes Peak Country
TC@HP2
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master
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In my experience on cars with unequal length A arms, high static negative cambers numbers are only necessary for softly sprung cars that generate a lot of body roll and/or race on flat surfaces. Also, the unequal length arms create additional negative camber gain as they compress, so a -1* static could translate into a -3* dynamic at 3" of suspension travel depending on your upper/lower arm ratio. Ultimately, your tire temps will tell you what it wants. Taller spindles will create additional negative camber gain as will shorter upper arms or longer lower arms. Ways to achieve this with stock parts using stock mounting points would be to use A body lower arms, F body disc spindles, and Moog offset upper arm bushings. All depends on how much effort you want to put into it and how competitive you really want to be. With a full hvac system and a fully insulated passenger compartment, this doesn't appear to be a maximum effort build. Based on some other builds I've seen on the interwebs, I tend to wonder if a truly stock suspension car can really be competitive in the cam classes on a national level at all, but admit some ignorance of the specifics of the classes. Look these for a cam t class car being built on site here; front - https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbt...tml#Post2187270 and the rear - https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbt...tml#Post2193251
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Re: 68 GTX Autocross Build for CAM Class
[Re: TC@HP2]
#2219067
12/22/16 02:54 PM
12/22/16 02:54 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 780 Woodinville, WA
Viol8r
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In my experience on cars with unequal length A arms, high static negative cambers numbers are only necessary for softly sprung cars that generate a lot of body roll and/or race on flat surfaces. Also, the unequal length arms create additional negative camber gain as they compress, so a -1* static could translate into a -3* dynamic at 3" of suspension travel depending on your upper/lower arm ratio. Ultimately, your tire temps will tell you what it wants. Taller spindles will create additional negative camber gain as will shorter upper arms or longer lower arms. Ways to achieve this with stock parts using stock mounting points would be to use A body lower arms, F body disc spindles, and Moog offset upper arm bushings. All depends on how much effort you want to put into it and how competitive you really want to be. With a full hvac system and a fully insulated passenger compartment, this doesn't appear to be a maximum effort build. Based on some other builds I've seen on the interwebs, I tend to wonder if a truly stock suspension car can really be competitive in the cam classes on a national level at all, but admit some ignorance of the specifics of the classes. Look these for a cam t class car being built on site here; front - https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbt...tml#Post2187270 and the rear - https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbt...tml#Post2193251 I will add that 3º with stock mounting points is not needed. We run a tubular QA1 front which uses mostly stock mounting points and we roll out of the shop for competition at 2.1º camber, 6.5º caster and 0 bump. This is at 5¾" ride height, 18"/ 275 front tire. Unfortunately, for us ambitious Mopar guys winning at a big national level event is a rarity and mostly garage talk (with a streetable B-body). If you can really wheel and there is some heat in the track, you can touch 8th to 12th most likely.
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Re: 68 GTX Autocross Build for CAM Class
[Re: Viol8r]
#2219073
12/22/16 03:08 PM
12/22/16 03:08 PM
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 656 Florida
CJD AUTOMOTIVE
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Unfortunately, for us ambitious Mopar guys winning at a big national level event is a rarity and mostly garage talk (with a streetable B-body). If you can really wheel and there is some heat in the track, you can touch 8th to 12th most likely. I'm going to see what I can do about that next year with my 'Cuda. Far from stock and stock suspension, but still a Mopar and still steetable.
Craig Scholl CJD Automotive, LLC Jacksonville, FL www.CJDAUTOMOTIVE.com904-400-1802 "I own a Mopar. I already know it won't be in stock, won't ship tomorrow, and won't fit without modification"
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Re: 68 GTX Autocross Build for CAM Class
[Re: CJD AUTOMOTIVE]
#2219079
12/22/16 03:20 PM
12/22/16 03:20 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,666 On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
amxautox
Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
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Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,666
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
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Unfortunately, for us ambitious Mopar guys winning at a big national level event is a rarity and mostly garage talk (with a streetable B-body). If you can really wheel and there is some heat in the track, you can touch 8th to 12th most likely. I'm going to see what I can do about that next year with my 'Cuda. Far from stock and stock suspension, but still a Mopar and still steetable. Post videos. I wish I could afford to put something like your suspension setups on my AMX, but I can't, so I go fishing, aLOT. And it already has a fuel cell, just not that fancy of one. A standard steel one with foam.
Last edited by amxautox; 12/22/16 03:22 PM.
Tom
"Everyone should believe in something; I believe I'll go fishing."
-Henry David Thoreau
Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths
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Re: 68 GTX Autocross Build for CAM Class
[Re: Bob J]
#2219105
12/22/16 04:01 PM
12/22/16 04:01 PM
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Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 200 Colorado
Bob J
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Thanks guys that is what I was looking for. As for the insulation and HVAC that was installed before the project was stalled. The dynamat is getting thinned. I want to do well locally and I know that I have no chance at the nationals, not with a B body, no B body is a max build. I agree that a stock suspension will not set the nationals on fire. Not with the rules saying that suspension and motor builds are open. But locally you can do well and that is were I have been playing.
07 Porsche C2 997.1 6spd DD and SCCA Solo II SS 68 Plymouth GTX Convert. 493cu Hotkiss Wilwood Classic air, Building for Solo II Cam 65 Chrysler 300 Convert. project 57 Desoto 2dr. Firesweep 392 Hemi,Wilwood Project with son 2003 Dodge Dakota R/T "DEAD"
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Re: 68 GTX Autocross Build for CAM Class
[Re: Bob J]
#2219238
12/22/16 08:21 PM
12/22/16 08:21 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,443 NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,443
NW Chicago suburban area
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The most critical issue with CAM class is to get your weight down... a Mopar TB suspension can do just fine and be highly competitive... I hope to someday get to the SCCA Nats... I used to attend in national competition running FS and ESP.... the ESP class is great... with some of the BEST ever historical competition for our pony/muscle cars, however, recently there has been some of the import cars (Subarus, Nissans, etc) classified and entering ... and they shouldn't be in that class of ESP... they are much smaller and physically advantaged in their handling over most all the America pony cars.
CAM class is also great... allowing engine mods etc... it was originally intended to attract the Pro-Street surge of cars. True reality is, that a well-setup ESP car can blow away most all Pro-Street cars.
A properly setup CAM car will be almost like an SCCA C/Prepared car, except ~street legal.
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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Re: 68 GTX Autocross Build for CAM Class
[Re: Viol8r]
#2222458
12/28/16 09:12 PM
12/28/16 09:12 PM
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Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 200 Colorado
Bob J
OP
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Colorado
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In my experience on cars with unequal length A arms, high static negative cambers numbers are only necessary for softly sprung cars that generate a lot of body roll and/or race on flat surfaces. Also, the unequal length arms create additional negative camber gain as they compress, so a -1* static could translate into a -3* dynamic at 3" of suspension travel depending on your upper/lower arm ratio. Ultimately, your tire temps will tell you what it wants. Taller spindles will create additional negative camber gain as will shorter upper arms or longer lower arms. Ways to achieve this with stock parts using stock mounting points would be to use A body lower arms, F body disc spindles, and Moog offset upper arm bushings. All depends on how much effort you want to put into it and how competitive you really want to be. With a full hvac system and a fully insulated passenger compartment, this doesn't appear to be a maximum effort build. Based on some other builds I've seen on the interwebs, I tend to wonder if a truly stock suspension car can really be competitive in the cam classes on a national level at all, but admit some ignorance of the specifics of the classes. Look these for a cam t class car being built on site here; front - https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbt...tml#Post2187270 and the rear - https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbt...tml#Post2193251 I will add that 3º with stock mounting points is not needed. We run a tubular QA1 front which uses mostly stock mounting points and we roll out of the shop for competition at 2.1º camber, 6.5º caster and 0 bump. This is at 5¾" ride height, 18"/ 275 front tire. Unfortunately, for us ambitious Mopar guys winning at a big national level event is a rarity and mostly garage talk (with a streetable B-body). If you can really wheel and there is some heat in the track, you can touch 8th to 12th most likely. I was just reading the instructions for my LCA's from Hotchkis. You are in the ball park for what Hotchkis recommends. Sport -1 camber, caster +5 toe 1/8 toe in. Race -2.5 to -3 camber caster +5 to +7 and 0 toe. So this looks like -2.1 to -2.5 is a good starting point. I hope this clears a few things up I know it does for me.
07 Porsche C2 997.1 6spd DD and SCCA Solo II SS 68 Plymouth GTX Convert. 493cu Hotkiss Wilwood Classic air, Building for Solo II Cam 65 Chrysler 300 Convert. project 57 Desoto 2dr. Firesweep 392 Hemi,Wilwood Project with son 2003 Dodge Dakota R/T "DEAD"
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Re: 68 GTX Autocross Build for CAM Class
[Re: 68rrunner]
#2222731
12/29/16 12:22 PM
12/29/16 12:22 PM
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Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 200 Colorado
Bob J
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The most aggressive settings we run on the Road Runner and the Challenger is 2.7* Camber and 7-9* Caster. My "default" setting for the Road Runner is 2* Camber and 8* Caster. Very easy to obtain on a straight car with the full Hotchkis TVS. Thank you for the information. I'm also running the full TVS system. My car was put on the frame machine before body work so it should be straight. I think that is the first thing that you should do is to have the car checked out before do much work.
07 Porsche C2 997.1 6spd DD and SCCA Solo II SS 68 Plymouth GTX Convert. 493cu Hotkiss Wilwood Classic air, Building for Solo II Cam 65 Chrysler 300 Convert. project 57 Desoto 2dr. Firesweep 392 Hemi,Wilwood Project with son 2003 Dodge Dakota R/T "DEAD"
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Re: 68 GTX Autocross Build for CAM Class
[Re: Bob J]
#2252535
02/12/17 07:43 PM
02/12/17 07:43 PM
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Bob J
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It looks like I'm buying new caliper brackets for my Wilwood setup. I bought these about 10 years ago off of Ebay. The rotors and brackets don't match. So my question for the folks Autocrossing with the Hotchkis TVS setup. Should I go to the 2 inch drop spindles to get full suspension travel.
07 Porsche C2 997.1 6spd DD and SCCA Solo II SS 68 Plymouth GTX Convert. 493cu Hotkiss Wilwood Classic air, Building for Solo II Cam 65 Chrysler 300 Convert. project 57 Desoto 2dr. Firesweep 392 Hemi,Wilwood Project with son 2003 Dodge Dakota R/T "DEAD"
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Re: 68 GTX Autocross Build for CAM Class
[Re: 68rrunner]
#2252956
02/13/17 02:02 PM
02/13/17 02:02 PM
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Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 200 Colorado
Bob J
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I wouldn't unless you want the front end low. Like race car low. The optimum ride height to put your compression on the negative-gaining side of the camber curve; the car is plenty low for most folks. I was thinking that plus I already installed new ball joints and Wilwood hubs for my small bearing spindles. So the price tag would be about 1k extra to change spindles. This is what happens when you sit on a project to long.
07 Porsche C2 997.1 6spd DD and SCCA Solo II SS 68 Plymouth GTX Convert. 493cu Hotkiss Wilwood Classic air, Building for Solo II Cam 65 Chrysler 300 Convert. project 57 Desoto 2dr. Firesweep 392 Hemi,Wilwood Project with son 2003 Dodge Dakota R/T "DEAD"
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Re: 68 GTX Autocross Build for CAM Class
[Re: Mopar Mitch]
#2253885
02/15/17 01:06 AM
02/15/17 01:06 AM
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 259 n.c.
geo.
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The most critical issue with CAM class is to get your weight down... a Mopar TB suspension can do just fine and be highly competitive... I hope to someday get to the SCCA Nats... I used to attend in national competition running FS and ESP.... the ESP class is great... with some of the BEST ever historical competition for our pony/muscle cars, however, recently there has been some of the import cars (Subarus, Nissans, etc) classified and entering ... and they shouldn't be in that class of ESP... they are much smaller and physically advantaged in their handling over most all the America pony cars. CAM class is also great... allowing engine mods etc... it was originally intended to attract the Pro-Street surge of cars. True reality is, that a well-setup ESP car can blow away most all Pro-Street cars. I'm sure you meant "Pro-Touring" though I'd like to see the owners reaction to being tagged "Pro-Street" And I agree completely with your post! A properly setup CAM car will be almost like an SCCA C/Prepared car, except ~street legal.
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Re: 68 GTX Autocross Build for CAM Class
[Re: geo.]
#2254105
02/15/17 04:02 PM
02/15/17 04:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,443 NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
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NW Chicago suburban area
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geo -- yes, I meant Pro-Touring, per sa, T/Anks. Those cars (Pro-Touring and Pro-Street) are works of art to the owners, IMO, and that's OK... "...beauty is in the eyes of the beholder...". I lean towards choosing a club's set of "rules" to "compete" in for racing (HSAX, AX, HPDE, etc), and follow those rules in car preparation and build-up.. The Pro-scene (Touring/Street) can become an endless and huge financial investment, then only to find that such a car isn't so fast after all when compared to certain other less-modified car builds (which cost a lot less, in other words). Of course, the nut-behind-the-wheel" (driver's skill and experience) will make the biggest difference in a timed vehicle's performance.
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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Re: 68 GTX Autocross Build for CAM Class
[Re: Bob J]
#2269602
03/14/17 08:54 PM
03/14/17 08:54 PM
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Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 200 Colorado
Bob J
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I was trying to see how much tire that I could fit. This is a unmounted 285/30/18 high in the wheel well. So it looks like I'm taking the back of the car apart this weekend and start rebuilding the 8 3/4. This will take some time since I'm going to scrap the undercoating off. What a pain in the axx job. I have a new ring and pinon with clutch pack for the sure grip and all the bearings. With a new Wilwood setup.
07 Porsche C2 997.1 6spd DD and SCCA Solo II SS 68 Plymouth GTX Convert. 493cu Hotkiss Wilwood Classic air, Building for Solo II Cam 65 Chrysler 300 Convert. project 57 Desoto 2dr. Firesweep 392 Hemi,Wilwood Project with son 2003 Dodge Dakota R/T "DEAD"
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