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Re: paint job on a budget!?
[Re: C38coupe]
#22010
03/02/06 11:15 AM
03/02/06 11:15 AM
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Joined: Jan 2006
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toronto canada
69chargeryeehaa
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Quote:
Hello, well I tried to scratch/gouge the Tremclad paint of the top of the can, as well as the overspill on the label, no such luck. On the rim of the can,where the paint was thick, I was able to scratch it off, and it felt softer where it was thicker. On my test piece,I COULD NOT SCRATCH/GOUGE PAINT WITH MY FINGER NAILS",I was able to scratch the paint with a sharp screwdriver, as well I dragged my 3 year olds plastic snow shovel against the whole test area and only made minor impressions into the paint. So this has been my experience with the Tremclad paint trials. As you can see this paint is tough.
That above quote is from C38COUPE's post pages ago, but i guess we all forgot it? 
by the way, were are you C38COUPE?
the only possibility i can think of now is that perhaps the rustoleum is a different paint than the tremclad? but i don't know, i'm a rocket scienctist, not a chemist!!!! or at least i think i am. 
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Re: paint job on a budget!?
[Re: 69chargeryeehaa]
#22011
03/02/06 11:18 AM
03/02/06 11:18 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200
Upper Midwest
MoparforLife
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Quote:
i think it is difenatly a prep issue with EXIT1965's paint and a combo of not waiting long enough to let it dry. those 2 issues combined are causing a total failure of the paint.  
Doing something that I shouldn't do - been doing some more thinking.
The more I think about it is maybe more than the fact that the spirits weren't dry but that they didn't completely 'cut' the new metal rust preservative off the new metal. That there was actually some of the metal film left on the metal not totally the falt of the 'spirit'.  but just not enough effort to make sure that the surface was prepped and paint ready. 
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Re: paint job on a budget!?
[Re: MoparforLife]
#22013
03/02/06 11:29 AM
03/02/06 11:29 AM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,220
toronto canada
69chargeryeehaa
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Quote:
Doing something that I shouldn't do - been doing some more thinking.
The more I think about it is maybe more than the fact that the spirits weren't dry but that they didn't completely 'cut' the new metal rust preservative off the new metal. That there was actually some of the metal film left on the metal not totally the falt of the 'spirit'. but just not enough effort to make sure that the surface was prepped and paint ready.
i agree, i think it is a prep problem, and if it's not that then it's that the rustoleum is not as good as the tremclad, BUT, that being said, from what EXIT1965 has said in all his posts from the begining, i think that the rustoleum "behaves" the same as the tremclad, leading me to believe that it is very simmilar, and there must be something in his process that screwed up.
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Re: paint job on a budget!?
[Re: 69chargeryeehaa]
#22014
03/02/06 03:37 PM
03/02/06 03:37 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,379
Rancho Cordova, CA
Exit1965
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A few things.. to summarize, I painted 2 areas, one with standard cheap rustoleum and one with the professional line from Lowes. On the standard side, I said that I didn't do the right surface prep. I sanded, then dusted off with a rag. To do it right I should have sanded, dusted with air, then cleaned with a clean rag and mineral spirits. When I am scratching the paint with my nail, two things are happening - I am digging my nail into the (soft) paint, and then I am lifting the paint off as I drag my nail down it. Like a razor blade. I do not think there would be any problem at all if I couldn't dig my fingernail through the layers of paint to get to the surface in the first place, so I personally don't place ENTIRE blame on poor surface prep. I can rub all day long on the paint and it aint going anywhere (to answer William Hall's question). I put most of the blame on the softness of the paint, after all I can dig my nail all the way through to the surface. If I couldn't do that, my nail would rub down the paint and maybe leave a small scratch. GRANTED, enamel may take a long time to dry, so I am not closing the book quite yet - But if the material was sufficiently hard, I would NOT be able to dig my nail through the layers to the surface and the paint would sit there happily doing its job. On the professional side, I believe there was oil or something where the bubbling took place. I think when I prepped the area, I might not have spent much time with mineral spirits in that area where it bubbled up since I was focusing on the area underneath it (on which there is no bubbling, but which has a very uneven surface on the metal so it doesn't look good). Next time I'll scrap the mineral spirits and use an actual grease remover (I have a can of stuff just for this purpose, but I tried with mineral spirits). The professional side, after only 10 days, is harder to scratch than the standard side. I think, as above, that this is a combination of better surface prep (sanding + dusting then mineral spirits cleaning) and a quicker drying paint. This is a good sign for the professional side, as well as lending some weight to the idea that the standard side surface wasn't prepped right. Admitted! One more thing - the C38 quote above was about TREMCLAD. For instance he says he can not scrape the (unthinned) paint off his can with his fingernail, BUT I COULD. And one should not argue that the paint can (the paper label, the metal itself, whatever) was prepped differently for a can of tremclad and a can of rustoleum. I do believe, with all the regulations here in CA and in the USA, that there could be a significant difference between Rustoleum and Tremclad. What it is, I don't know. Several people in this thread have stated that they have x,y,z, painted with rustoleum and it's now as hard as a rock. So perhaps these scratch tests shouldn't have commenced for a few more weeks, but the lesson here is it will take time to dry, and take time to properly prepare the surface. I am certainly not questioning that the technique is a good one. The whole reason I experiemented in the first place was to see how nice it can turn out, and not having much of any paint/body experience before this, I am really learning as I go. end of manifesto. 
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Re: paint job on a budget!?
[Re: Exit1965]
#22015
03/02/06 03:43 PM
03/02/06 03:43 PM
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Try hitting part of the area with a heat gun, or heat lamp for awhile, and accelerate the cure and see what happens.
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Re: paint job on a budget!?
#22016
03/02/06 03:49 PM
03/02/06 03:49 PM
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Also, I firmly believe there could be SUBSTANTIAL differences in the chemistry that affect the performance of the Tremclad vs. Rustoleum.
I have been on the receiving end of different formulations of paints, resins, gel-coats, etc., that were mandatory at our shop in So. Cal., and not at our shop I had in No. Cal. Same can, same colors, same except the difference in formula for emission control compliance, and a WORLD of difference in performance.
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Re: paint job on a budget!?
#22017
03/02/06 05:05 PM
03/02/06 05:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,220
toronto canada
69chargeryeehaa
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EXIT1965 - i agree, maybe it is a 50/50 problem with the prep and the difference in the paint. when i prep i use about a 200 and then start painting, but i allways clean the surface very well. i use the mineral spirits because i know it won't react with the paint, and it is a very good cleaner. people use mineral spirits to clean carb parts, as it does'nt eat at rubber, and i find it a excellent solvent for cleaning grease, oil, ect....it even works really well on removing overspray on chrome and lenses without damaging lenses. it's funny that at walmart they sell rustoleum and tremclad. i'm almost tempted to get some and test it. but like i said surface prep plays a huge role in adhesion. but also enamels take long to dry, as was the case for all my cars, i'd say about 4 months and it is totally and safely cured. i'd bet my paint would scratch off also, i just never tried since it was not a "test". 
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Re: paint job on a budget!?
[Re: 69chargeryeehaa]
#22018
03/02/06 05:19 PM
03/02/06 05:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,220
toronto canada
69chargeryeehaa
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this is right off the rustoleum website under their FAQ'S: What are the differences between the Professional paints and the Stops Rust paints? Both product lines offer the same protection and durability you have come to expect from Rust-Oleum. Professional dries in 15 minutes. (that tells me its the same paint just with more reducers to make drying time faster) What is the difference between the Stops Rust paints and the Farm Equipment paints? Both products offer the same rust preventive and weather resistant qualities. The Farm Equipment colors are designed to offer visual color matches to popular equipment colors. Tremclad on the rustoleum site for canada has no description, and seems to me to just be a re-labeled brand for canada. from this link: http://www.flecto.com/brand.asp?frm_brand_id=41&SBL=5they also list rustoleum and tremclad on the canadian site as well. i'm really starting to think that this is the exact same paint as tremclad, and the professional is formulated to dry faster but is the same paint, i would use the standard since you're reducing it anyways to thin it and make it dry faster. they also mention this on their site about tremclad: Direct to metal; primer not required on most applications Best choice for metal they also mention this: Contaminates: Residual contaminates left on the surface by improper surface preparation may cause slow curing and eventual adhesion problems with the overcoat. Contaminates such as waxes, oils, silicone, stearates, etc. will cause slow curing problems. Remedy: Make sure the surface is cleaned and prepared properly before the coating is applied. Slow curing coatings may have to be stripped off and the surface thoroughly cleaned with wax strippers, solvent washes, etc. before recoating. (Sanding alone will usually not remove these contaminates adequately.) and this: High temperature/low humidity: High temperature and low humidity promote rapid evaporation of solvents from the applied coating causing a quick set and cure. May cause brush marks to be present because the product cures before it can self-level; difficulty in applying the product, rapid surface cure or skinning that may prevent the evaporation of solvents from the rest of the coating, resulting in an overall soft cure or easily marred finish. Remedy: Thin the product 10% with mineral spirits to aid application and slow down the dry time to promote good self-leveling, apply the product during cooler parts of the day such as early morning or late afternoon. and this: Tips for enamels These brilliantly colored enamels can give you a high-gloss look or a clean, matte color. You can blend colors to achieve a wide range of hues-and add up to eight ounces of universal colorants per gallon for even more color tints. Three-Step Application You only need to use a primer when you're coloring fiberglass, galvanized metal, or aluminum. If you're using a brush, flow the enamel onto the surface and don't over-brush. To roll on, use a short-nap enamel roller. For large flat, smooth surfaces, you can use a short-nap pad applicator. Apply enough coats to cover thoroughly and provide a smooth finish. 
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Re: paint job on a budget!?
[Re: ONEBADBIRD]
#22021
03/02/06 08:12 PM
03/02/06 08:12 PM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,220
toronto canada
69chargeryeehaa
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Quote:
"take duplicolor's line of paint which includes primer, primer sealer, topcoat, and reducers (hardners) which is the line of paint i used on the 71 midnight blue beetle in the pics reciently, and that was sprayed on."
Reducer and hardener/activator are not the same thing. If you used extra reducer thinking it was also a hardener, that's why it took 3 months to dry.
What's the part number of this
all-in-one reducer/hardener?
To my knowledge, Duplicolor does not have a hardener at all? The hardener/activator has to be sourced from another supplier which is why I recommended Omni. If I have that wrong, set me straight.
sorry, the reducer was not a hardner, your right, they don't have a hardner, i just did'nt want to go into details about single stage, and what i ment to convey was that even single stage paint does'nt fully cure until about 3 months, then you can wax it, buff it, ect......
Quote:
Who wait a minute here this post is debating roll on and rattle can paint jobs why are we arguing about single stage acrylic paint jobs? Lets stick to debating about rustoleum and tremclad out comes, I find it much more interesting. Keep the info coming you fellow rolling brethren. Jay
i'm lost, i never discussed rattle can paintjobs. this car was painted with single stage process in my garage, with a compressor, HVLP (high volume, low pressure) paint gun:
but i agree, we should discuss the tremclad/rustoleum paint process as i'm not in any way saying that the roller and tremclad method is better, just offering an alternative and sharing my expirences.
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Re: paint job on a budget!?
[Re: 69chargeryeehaa]
#22022
03/02/06 08:41 PM
03/02/06 08:41 PM
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Still following this post, but have taken a different approach. I to couldn't find Temclad. I purchased Martin Senour Tough Coat Industrial Enamel. I thinned it down about 20% and rolled it on, perfect. Sanded between 2nd & 3-4 coat with 400 grit. Sanded between 4 & 5-6 coat with 600 grit. Final sanded to 1500 grit. After 2 days, "polished" by hand with Turtle Wax Polishing Wax. Look great. I haven't tried to scrach etc the paint, as I to believe it needs to harden for several more weeks. But right now I find it hard to stick my fingernail into the paint. I am painting in my garage, Temp about 60 humidy about 15 %. I also use a hair dryer to start the curing process but let the coats dry for 2-3 hrs between coats. I'll let you know what happens in a couple of weeks, Thanks
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Re: paint job on a budget!?
#22023
03/02/06 08:45 PM
03/02/06 08:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,220
toronto canada
69chargeryeehaa
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Quote:
Still following this post, but have taken a different approach. I to couldn't find Temclad. I purchased Martin Senour Tough Coat Industrial Enamel. I thinned it down about 20% and rolled it on, perfect. Sanded between 2nd & 3-4 coat with 400 grit. Sanded between 4 & 5-6 coat with 600 grit. Final sanded to 1500 grit. After 2 days, "polished" by hand with Turtle Wax Polishing Wax. Look great. I haven't tried to scrach etc the paint, as I to believe it needs to harden for several more weeks. But right now I find it hard to stick my fingernail into the paint. I am painting in my garage, Temp about 60 humidy about 15 %. I also use a hair dryer to start the curing process but let the coats dry for 2-3 hrs between coats. I'll let you know what happens in a couple of weeks, Thanks
awesome, great to see someone else is trying it too, hey, be a pal and post a pic would ya'?
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Re: paint job on a budget!?
[Re: 69chargeryeehaa]
#22024
03/02/06 08:55 PM
03/02/06 08:55 PM
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Hey Thanks. I will try to post a picture when my teenage son shows me how. I am a little out of the loop on electronics/computers etc. My wife showed me how to get on the Internet, but nothing else.
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Re: paint job on a budget!?
#22025
03/02/06 09:05 PM
03/02/06 09:05 PM
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Good job - I too think any of the good DTM paints are a candidate for a try with the process.
Some of the DTM paints don't have adequate UV inhibitors in them for exposed surfaces though, so you need to check what you are getting.
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Re: paint job on a budget!?
[Re: 69chargeryeehaa]
#22027
03/02/06 09:17 PM
03/02/06 09:17 PM
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69Charger - Exit - and everyone else involved with this thread,
I've been following this thread for several weeks now and I finally decided to sign up to this board to chime in my 2 cents worth. First and foremost, I want to thank everyone who has taken not only the time to offer thier opinions and advice, but to give a couple of special "thank you"s to those how have taken the time to experiment with this idea. Most of all, an Xtra-cudos to 69Charger not only for bringing this to light, but also for his patience in sticking with it (the thread) and the obvious dedication for taking the time to answer everyones questions - and I do mean EVERY question sent his way!
As an added note to all of you here - I picked up this thread mid-stream from someone who posted it on another auto make forum - Datsun Z cars to be exact. I gotta tell you, there are quite a few members of our boards keeping a very close eye on this, and all are not only interested, but also considering a bit of experimenting as well - myself included. I have a '73 240Z that I'm slowly getting roadworthy that is in need of a repaint. This car will never be "perfect", at least as long as I own it. Perfect cars mean huge $$$, which I certainly do not have. But that doesnt stop me, or many of my Z brothers, from wanting a decent looking paintjob on a bluecollar budget. I'm hoping that in the near future I can post some results of my own to share with this forum, and also hoping that from all that I've read and learned here already that it will be useful.
I guess what I really wanted to say was to let you all know that this thread has travelled far beyond this forum, and has stirred quite a bit more interest than you might realize. Keep up the excellent work!
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Re: paint job on a budget!?
#22029
03/02/06 09:48 PM
03/02/06 09:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,220
toronto canada
69chargeryeehaa
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Quote:
69Charger - Exit - and everyone else involved with this thread,
I've been following this thread for several weeks now and I finally decided to sign up to this board to chime in my 2 cents worth. First and foremost, I want to thank everyone who has taken not only the time to offer thier opinions and advice, but to give a couple of special "thank you"s to those how have taken the time to experiment with this idea. Most of all, an Xtra-cudos to 69Charger not only for bringing this to light, but also for his patience in sticking with it (the thread) and the obvious dedication for taking the time to answer everyones questions - and I do mean EVERY question sent his way!
As an added note to all of you here - I picked up this thread mid-stream from someone who posted it on another auto make forum - Datsun Z cars to be exact. I gotta tell you, there are quite a few members of our boards keeping a very close eye on this, and all are not only interested, but also considering a bit of experimenting as well - myself included. I have a '73 240Z that I'm slowly getting roadworthy that is in need of a repaint. This car will never be "perfect", at least as long as I own it. Perfect cars mean huge $$$, which I certainly do not have. But that doesnt stop me, or many of my Z brothers, from wanting a decent looking paintjob on a bluecollar budget. I'm hoping that in the near future I can post some results of my own to share with this forum, and also hoping that from all that I've read and learned here already that it will be useful.
I guess what I really wanted to say was to let you all know that this thread has travelled far beyond this forum, and has stirred quite a bit more interest than you might realize. Keep up the excellent work!
honestly it's people like you that make comments like that; that keep me going. thankyou for taking the time to read it ALL. i like z's too, just no space in the garage for all my obsessions, and then there's that wife issue, you know the one. lol i have to be quick, she might be watching, lol. i saw a sweet z last week and wanted it. as we drove by i was looking out the window and outaa nowhere "slap" and she said don't even think about it. i said "yes master" lol  i like all cars, in my stable i have a 69 charger, 74 vw beetle, 2001 vw beetle sport turbo, and a 2002 mustang gt. anything old or fast i like it all. i'm not just a hard core mopar eat/sleep/crap/sex mopar guy. anyways, welcome, show us some pics, and try it out.
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