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318 to 360 - Which build and drivetrain? #2190671
11/06/16 01:29 PM
11/06/16 01:29 PM
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MassHole Central
rtman Offline OP
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After totaling my '72 Satellite Sebring/GTX clone, I just bought an exceptionally clean '73 Satellite Sebring Plus. 81k miles, buckets, a/c, am/fm...and a 318/904.

It takes torque to move a 3,500lb car. And coming off a hot 440, I want the car to move smartly. But its a cruiser (rarely seeing 4000 rpm), not a street/strip warrior. And I want to keep it small block, putting the a/c components back on with useable vacuum. And I want to keep the entire drivetrain build under $6,500.

Option 1: keep the 318. Add an LD4B intake, small carb, swap the cam. Keep the 904/small rear-end. Meh, not too stimulating.

Option 2: go 360 crate with cast heads. Roller or flat tappet? Can I get 400 ft/lbs of torque low down in the powerband? Figure I now need to go SB 727, and an 8.25 rear-end. I'd like to go back to a SG.

Option 3: go 360 stroker. Again, 727 SB with larger SG rear-end.

Can I do Option 3 for $6,500?

Please weigh in. Thanks. Don't bother saying BB is the way to go. I wanna keep it SB.

Re: 318 to 360 - Which build and drivetrain? [Re: rtman] #2190683
11/06/16 01:45 PM
11/06/16 01:45 PM
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408 stroker for $4k might do the job for you.

Tech info on above 408


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They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: 318 to 360 - Which build and drivetrain? [Re: rtman] #2190689
11/06/16 01:49 PM
11/06/16 01:49 PM
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rtman Offline OP
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Clarifiers:

- a previous owner converted it to true dual exhaust
- 3.23 rear gearing
- I love the stock look, and I want to use as many of the 318 components as possible. I'll reuse the crappy exh manifolds, maybe even the single snorkel air cleaner if it'll fit with an adapter. That's why I suggested Option 1.
- Biggest consideration: I'm not a machinist nor mechanic, just an ENTHUSIAST. My checkbook is my ability to do this.

So, what can I do for $6,500? I'd love the stroker option, but not sure I can do it all for that price. Thanks.

Re: 318 to 360 - Which build and drivetrain? [Re: rtman] #2190712
11/06/16 02:22 PM
11/06/16 02:22 PM
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Get you a junkyard 360 magnum and convert it to a carb.Use the magnum manifolds.Keep your tranny and rear end.No sticky tires/stall converters no problem.
A good 360 will fill your goal easily but a JY magnum may be easier to find.Lots of ways to skin this cat.Comes down to budget/preference.Finding a running motor ready to drop in is usually cheaper in the long run.

Sell your 318 to offset some cost.

Nothing wrong with a top end swap on your 318 either.If it is truly a cruiser then keep it as is.
Are you confused yet?

Re: 318 to 360 - Which build and drivetrain? [Re: rtman] #2190716
11/06/16 02:25 PM
11/06/16 02:25 PM
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What about using a used 360 crank with the mains cut down to fit the 318/340 main bearings and have the rod journals turn down to clean them up and have a custom lightweight piston made to fit that crank in your 318 block with the stock 318 rods? scope That or go to a 4.0 inch stroker crank kit in your 318 block with a better set of new aluminum heads work
Lots of choices on how to make power, torque and HP thumbs

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 11/06/16 02:26 PM.

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Re: 318 to 360 - Which build and drivetrain? [Re: rtman] #2190736
11/06/16 02:59 PM
11/06/16 02:59 PM
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$4k for a stroker, reuse all the 318 external stuff. Will you choke it down with the log manifolds? Yes, but with $2500 left over you can put some of it towards magnum manifolds and headpipe change. You can even reuse the 318 motor mounts if you use a 1/2" nut as a spacer on the DS mount.

You will also need to spend some money on beefing up the 904. Kickdown will need addressed as 2bbl vs 4bbl won't usually work right. Probably need a new carb and the stock 318 air cleaner won't fit, 2bbl vs 4bbl. I dunno if there is a base plate you can use to make it work though.


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Re: 318 to 360 - Which build and drivetrain? [Re: gch] #2190821
11/06/16 05:51 PM
11/06/16 05:51 PM
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rtman Offline OP
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Yup, I'm confused.

Low-end torque...9-9.5:1 compression...what about the tranny?

Re: 318 to 360 - Which build and drivetrain? [Re: rtman] #2190869
11/06/16 07:28 PM
11/06/16 07:28 PM
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stroked 360. 4" cranks are cheap now & the KB 356 pistons ain't too bad (iirc on the #). mag heads. definitely keep the 904. EDIT the # is correct

Last edited by RapidRobert; 11/07/16 03:10 PM.

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Re: 318 to 360 - Which build and drivetrain? [Re: gch] #2190962
11/06/16 09:55 PM
11/06/16 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted By gch
Get you a junkyard 360 magnum and convert it to a carb.Use the magnum manifolds.Keep your tranny and rear end.No sticky tires/stall converters no problem.
A good 360 will fill your goal easily but a JY magnum may be easier to find.Lots of ways to skin this cat.Comes down to budget/preference.Finding a running motor ready to drop in is usually cheaper in the long run.

Sell your 318 to offset some cost.

Nothing wrong with a top end swap on your 318 either.If it is truly a cruiser then keep it as is.
Are you confused yet?



I agree with the 360 Magnum swap...

Re: 318 to 360 - Which build and drivetrain? [Re: rtman] #2191365
11/07/16 01:03 PM
11/07/16 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted By rtman


Option 3: go 360 stroker. Again, 727 SB with larger SG rear-end.

Can I do Option 3 for $6,500?

Please weigh in. Thanks. Don't bother saying BB is the way to go. I wanna keep it SB.


With buying all the parts ... and labor ... I don't think so unless you by a used engine and trans ...

You should have bought back your 72, you could have done it easily and I just found a buyer for the shell ...


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Re: 318 to 360 - Which build and drivetrain? [Re: JohnRR] #2191563
11/07/16 04:16 PM
11/07/16 04:16 PM
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If you have the 318 already, stroke that. Look into the CNCMotorsports website. Scat cast crank plus I-beam rods, $650. Icon forged dish top pistons, $500. That'll get you to 392 cubic inches.

Set of heads, Promaxx aluminum or EQ iron, $1400

Performer RPM $330

Holley Street Demon carb, $350

Or you could buy a shortblock for $2600 from CNC or one from Blueprint Engines, don't know the cost. Or a longblock. Or a crate engine. Blueprint Engines 408 with iron heads $3995.

So you see you have many options.

Or go bigger with a longer stroke. BPE has cranks like that and can put together a kit for you.

Here's some simple rules:
1. Don't build anything with less than a 4 inch stroke.
2. Pay attention to the weights of pistons and rods.
2.1 Basically, any aftermarket rod with a 7/16" rod bolt is good enough.
3. Buy your heads from someone who checks them out before shipping.
4. Don't use a used head.
5. Don't go crazy on the cam selection
6. Limit compression ratio to 9.5:1 with iron heads and 10.5:1 with aluminum heads.

Good Luck!

R.

Re: 318 to 360 - Which build and drivetrain? [Re: dogdays] #2191569
11/07/16 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted By dogdays
If you have the 318 already, stroke that. Look into the CNCMotorsports website. Scat cast crank plus I-beam rods, $650. Icon forged dish top pistons, $500. That'll get you to 392 cubic inches.

Set of heads, Promaxx aluminum or EQ iron, $1400

Performer RPM $330

Holley Street Demon carb, $350

Or you could buy a shortblock for $2600 from CNC or one from Blueprint Engines, don't know the cost. Or a longblock. Or a crate engine. Blueprint Engines 408 with iron heads $3995.

So you see you have many options.

Or go bigger with a longer stroke. BPE has cranks like that and can put together a kit for you.

Here's some simple rules:
1. Don't build anything with less than a 4 inch stroke.
2. Pay attention to the weights of pistons and rods.
2.1 Basically, any aftermarket rod with a 7/16" rod bolt is good enough.
3. Buy your heads from someone who checks them out before shipping.
4. Don't use a used head.
5. Don't go crazy on the cam selection
6. Limit compression ratio to 9.5:1 with iron heads and 10.5:1 with aluminum heads.

Good Luck!

R.


Good advice but I don't see him having it built using his existing engine as an option he would go for, but sourcing a 318, or 360 block, and building one while he drives the car is a better option ... but that will take him over his $6500 all in budget.


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Re: 318 to 360 - Which build and drivetrain? [Re: JohnRR] #2191583
11/07/16 04:36 PM
11/07/16 04:36 PM
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Google "318 Mopar stroke" & tons of good reading will show up


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Re: 318 to 360 - Which build and drivetrain? [Re: rtman] #2191738
11/07/16 08:37 PM
11/07/16 08:37 PM
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Lets start by saying 318s have been hauling more weight then 3500 for many years.

Will you have to pay someone to perform all the work? $6500 disappears pretty quickly when your paying for parts and labor.

If you want to keep the original exhaust manifolds, and the 318 air cleaner assembly with a single snorkel, and the 318 carb, your pretty much as far as your going to go. 318s are limited by the factory, to reduce the ability to get air into and out of the motor. If you insist on keeping the factory restrictions on the intake side, your only options are a lower gear to get the rpm up more quickly, but that will kill the cruising factor. Also, that 318 carb and air cleaner will choke it out of air at 4,000, regardless of how fast it gets there.

A 340 spec cam, a 4bbl carb, and a 340/360 air filter housing with the rear hidden air door, along with the already installed dual exhaust will wake up that 318. Past that its pretty hard to beat more displacement. Gene

Re: 318 to 360 - Which build and drivetrain? [Re: poorboy] #2192011
11/08/16 03:21 AM
11/08/16 03:21 AM
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Originally Posted By poorboy
Lets start by saying 318s have been hauling more weight then 3500 for many years.

Will you have to pay someone to perform all the work? $6500 disappears pretty quickly when your paying for parts and labor.

... Gene


The answer to that question is yes, he said it above ...

But he did say he will write the checks ...


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Re: 318 to 360 - Which build and drivetrain? [Re: poorboy] #2192078
11/08/16 11:33 AM
11/08/16 11:33 AM
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rtman Offline OP
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"Hauling" is different than motivating rapidly from rest ("Torque"). And not only torque, but torque low down.

Will the 904 be stout enough to handle the extra torque? Pls, don't think strip launches.

Can always drill holes in the bottom of the 318 single snorkel air cleaner.

I don't need to keep the 318 exh manifolds, but it will be manifolds, not headers.

I don't intend to keep the carb. I have a partially rebuilt Carter AVS at home that I will try and reuse.


Thanks for all the replies.

Re: 318 to 360 - Which build and drivetrain? [Re: rtman] #2192162
11/08/16 01:59 PM
11/08/16 01:59 PM
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I run a 360 magnum .040 over, 4" stroke eagle crank, roller cam, KB hyper pistons 10:2, mechanical Holley 750 DP, MSD distributor, digital 6al, B&M 727 tranny with a 3000 stall, 8.75 rear end with clutch type power lock with 3:55's. This thing is a blast to drive!! I have traction issues though, even at 40 MPH.

Re: 318 to 360 - Which build and drivetrain? [Re: rtman] #2192188
11/08/16 02:52 PM
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Take a junkyard 5.2 or 5.9 magnum and drop it in. Even stock it will have twice the power of your old 318. I would retain the fuel injection for the ultimate turn-key street cruiser, however a 4bbl swap would do nicely for you.

If you're not mechanically inclined enough to handle building an engine yourself, you won't make any of the other suggestions in this thread for 6500 bucks.

Re: 318 to 360 - Which build and drivetrain? [Re: DaytonaTurbo] #2192277
11/08/16 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted By DaytonaTurbo
Take a junkyard 5.2 or 5.9 magnum and drop it in. Even stock it will have twice the power of your old 318. I would retain the fuel injection for the ultimate turn-key street cruiser, however a 4bbl swap would do nicely for you.

If you're not mechanically inclined enough to handle building an engine yourself, you won't make any of the other suggestions in this thread for 6500 bucks.

Agree, I did that. Low mile magnum, new rings and bearings, ported heads myself .501 cam 1.7 roller rockers new springs, m1 intake, all under $1500

Re: 318 to 360 - Which build and drivetrain? [Re: rtman] #2192729
11/09/16 03:27 AM
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Originally Posted By rtman
"Hauling" is different than motivating rapidly from rest ("Torque"). And not only torque, but torque low down.

Will the 904 be stout enough to handle the extra torque? Pls, don't think strip launches.

Can always drill holes in the bottom of the 318 single snorkel air cleaner.

I don't need to keep the 318 exh manifolds, but it will be manifolds, not headers.

I don't intend to keep the carb. I have a partially rebuilt Carter AVS at home that I will try and reuse.


Thanks for all the replies.


1st ... you wanted the same thing from a 440 ... a small cube gasoline engine doesn't make hundreds of foot/lbs of torque off idle... to get want you want would require you to install a hopped up CUMMINS Diesel ...

2nd ... NO , Chrysler had to build the A999, which was a hopped up A904, to handle a smogger 360 in an F body.

3rd ... the opening in the 318 air cleaner is maybe half the diameter of a 4bbl opening, why you even want to keep it is beyond reasoning ?

5th ... 318 manifolds are not the choice for a 408, you need 360 at minimum and the magnums would be best.

6th ... step away from the Carter style carb, especially one sized for a 440, it's going to cost you more money paying someone to try and make that one work on a smaller engine ... HOLLEY ...


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Re: 318 to 360 - Which build and drivetrain? [Re: JohnRR] #2192998
11/09/16 01:36 PM
11/09/16 01:36 PM
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rtman Offline OP
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Congratulations, JohnRR, for running your post count up to 73,100 with that last post...and doing a very close imitation of my ex-wife.

Thanks to the 1st Amendment, I can ask whatever stoopid questions I want and you can answer anyway you choose. Thanks for all your help.


And thanks, everyone, for responding to this thread.



Re: 318 to 360 - Which build and drivetrain? [Re: rtman] #2193187
11/09/16 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted By rtman
Congratulations, JohnRR, for running your post count up to 73,100 with that last post...and doing a very close imitation of my ex-wife.


pity


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