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Re: Watts link for a mopar?
[Re: dusterpt440]
#2153098
09/12/16 03:28 PM
09/12/16 03:28 PM
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 656
Florida
CJD AUTOMOTIVE
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 656
Florida
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I'm running aluminum hubs, front and back. They are 7075. As long as the part was designed for the application, I don't see any issue. Their are 4 grades of 7075, and 3 on 6061, it greatly affects their mechanical properties, so getting hubs from a reputable manufacture with an engineering staff is critical.
Craig Scholl CJD Automotive, LLC Jacksonville, FL www.CJDAUTOMOTIVE.com904-400-1802 "I own a Mopar. I already know it won't be in stock, won't ship tomorrow, and won't fit without modification"
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Re: Watts link for a mopar?
[Re: dusterpt440]
#2185185
10/29/16 10:47 AM
10/29/16 10:47 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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My beef is with the dainty alum wilwood hubs, the bearings are what they are, and that track induced braking heat weakens them, find any graph online that suits your fancy, it is still a fact, especially at the temps we might see on the track, and the drop off in strength is sharp and profound. Choose whatever decrease in strength you can accept is your choice, I'm not changing my driving line because of poorly chosen, lightweight alum drag hubs. Stating alum cools faster and therefore not an issue, completely ignores the fact it also heats faster, the bearing issue dovetails with the this, because smaller bearings/races are more likely mire prone to the heat expansion issues of the hub, in addition to the observation the wilwood hubs are not a Robust design, ie very thick in stressed areas, even when compared to steel OEM hubs, and alum needs to be thicker then steel in almost every case in similar applications, but you know all that.
Okay, been watching this back and forth. I think what csmopar is trying to say, or at least how I understand it from his posts, is that wilwoods uses aluminum hubs on ALL their kits for all brands. So if the hubs were an issue, they'd be having that issue on all brands. Also, seeing csmopar's challenge above about finding an example online of a wilwood hub failing, I tried as well, I didn't find anything when search "wilwood hub failure" other than this very thread. So maybe it has happened but perhaps it was years ago? I just dont know. while I was doing that though, I decided to check other "name brand" brake kits and see what they use for hubs for both mopar and mustang II. Baer Brakes: Uses aluminum hubs for all their big brake "road race kits" regardless of make or model, ford,chevy,mopar, etc Brembo: doesn't make kits for either, but scrolling thru the kits they do make, they also use aluminum hubs Aerospace: Aluminum hubs on ALL kits Wilwood: aluminum hubs on ALL kits Strange: Aluminum hubs on ALL kits SSBC: Aluminum hubs on ALL kits(kind of a misnomer considering their name) Heidts: Aluminum hubs on all kits for all brands These are just the companies i knew off of top of my head, others dont make kits for mopars, like brembo, but their hubs are aluminum as well. Yes, you can get cast iron hubs from any of the above, if you want stock brake rotors that aren't drill or slotted and that feature 1 or maybe 2 pistons. From what I' seen this morning, you CANNOT get an aftermarket brake system without getting aluminum hubs. So based on this, jcc, I think csmopar is right and I dont think his comment about you grasping at straw was off base or uncalled for. Im beginning to think you have something else to prove and are simply putting down mustang II spindles like you've tried to this entire thread. Mustang II spindles are used throughout the hobby, arguably as popular or more popular than C5 spindles. Surely if there was a problem, someone somewhere would report it. You seem to keep avoiding my main contention, heat effects alum much more significantly then steel. Why? Wilwood is the typically lightest alum hub from what I have seen. I thought my point was understanding that wilwood using any small bearing makes for a small hub, a large bearing, even though having higher bearing capacity, makes for a larger (stronger hub). The others I have less experience with. Alum can be and is best solution in almost all applications, IF the design is correct, concerning material, material thickness, additional cooling to reduce brake generated heat, and finally the intended application, drag vs open track, vehicle weight, track speeds, braking duty, driving style, tire/wheel combos, etc. Your list only means no one has reported failures or are not reaching the limits (show cars?), not that the design is ideal. I guess this discussion should really be for those that have track time that have actually had on track heat related brake issues/concerns vs those that have not. I'm speaking from the former. There are racing organizations (and/or manufacturers) that do not allow RF alum hubs, I suspect that reasoning is more based on fatigue failure from repeated high loads. The Ron Sutton alum hubs for instance and the Wilwood alum hubs are light years apart, and not intended to be part of this discussion.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Watts link for a mopar?
[Re: jcc]
#2185195
10/29/16 11:24 AM
10/29/16 11:24 AM
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Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 27
Indiana
dusterpt440
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 27
Indiana
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My beef is with the dainty alum wilwood hubs, the bearings are what they are, and that track induced braking heat weakens them, find any graph online that suits your fancy, it is still a fact, especially at the temps we might see on the track, and the drop off in strength is sharp and profound. Choose whatever decrease in strength you can accept is your choice, I'm not changing my driving line because of poorly chosen, lightweight alum drag hubs. Stating alum cools faster and therefore not an issue, completely ignores the fact it also heats faster, the bearing issue dovetails with the this, because smaller bearings/races are more likely mire prone to the heat expansion issues of the hub, in addition to the observation the wilwood hubs are not a Robust design, ie very thick in stressed areas, even when compared to steel OEM hubs, and alum needs to be thicker then steel in almost every case in similar applications, but you know all that.
Okay, been watching this back and forth. I think what csmopar is trying to say, or at least how I understand it from his posts, is that wilwoods uses aluminum hubs on ALL their kits for all brands. So if the hubs were an issue, they'd be having that issue on all brands. Also, seeing csmopar's challenge above about finding an example online of a wilwood hub failing, I tried as well, I didn't find anything when search "wilwood hub failure" other than this very thread. So maybe it has happened but perhaps it was years ago? I just dont know. while I was doing that though, I decided to check other "name brand" brake kits and see what they use for hubs for both mopar and mustang II. Baer Brakes: Uses aluminum hubs for all their big brake "road race kits" regardless of make or model, ford,chevy,mopar, etc Brembo: doesn't make kits for either, but scrolling thru the kits they do make, they also use aluminum hubs Aerospace: Aluminum hubs on ALL kits Wilwood: aluminum hubs on ALL kits Strange: Aluminum hubs on ALL kits SSBC: Aluminum hubs on ALL kits(kind of a misnomer considering their name) Heidts: Aluminum hubs on all kits for all brands These are just the companies i knew off of top of my head, others dont make kits for mopars, like brembo, but their hubs are aluminum as well. Yes, you can get cast iron hubs from any of the above, if you want stock brake rotors that aren't drill or slotted and that feature 1 or maybe 2 pistons. From what I' seen this morning, you CANNOT get an aftermarket brake system without getting aluminum hubs. So based on this, jcc, I think csmopar is right and I dont think his comment about you grasping at straw was off base or uncalled for. Im beginning to think you have something else to prove and are simply putting down mustang II spindles like you've tried to this entire thread. Mustang II spindles are used throughout the hobby, arguably as popular or more popular than C5 spindles. Surely if there was a problem, someone somewhere would report it. You seem to keep avoiding my main contention, heat effects alum much more significantly then steel. Why? Wilwood is the typically lightest alum hub from what I have seen. I thought my point was understanding that wilwood using any small bearing makes for a small hub, a large bearing, even though having higher bearing capacity, makes for a larger (stronger hub). The others I have less experience with. Alum can be and is best solution in almost all applications, IF the design is correct, concerning material, material thickness, additional cooling to reduce brake generated heat, and finally the intended application, drag vs open track, vehicle weight, track speeds, braking duty, driving style, tire/wheel combos, etc. Your list only means no one has reported failures or are not reaching the limits (show cars?), not that the design is ideal. I guess this discussion should really be for those that have track time that have actually had on track heat related brake issues/concerns vs those that have not. I'm speaking from the former. There are racing organizations (and/or manufacturers) that do not allow RF alum hubs, I suspect that reasoning is more based on fatigue failure from repeated high loads. The Ron Sutton alum hubs for instance and the Wilwood alum hubs are light years apart, and not intended to be part of this discussion. ok, so lets see the kits you recommend running then. I know im not the only one to ask you for proof to back your theory. Yet you've provided none. And you are not the only one with track time. Also, I'm still waiting for you to provide proof aluminum hubs are failing due to heat. I'm not saying there's zero chance its happening, because like anything mechanical, it can happen. But lets see the examples. and why does heat affect aluminum different than steel? is that what you're asking? also, what Ron sutton hubs? I just got done looking over his website, he sellings wilwood brake kits exclusively. Only thing I see from Sutton is his own Track star brand spindles. so could you please point me to those Ron sutton hubs?
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Re: Watts link for a mopar?
[Re: jcc]
#2185212
10/29/16 12:15 PM
10/29/16 12:15 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 183
usa
csmopar
member
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member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 183
usa
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My beef is with the dainty alum wilwood hubs, the bearings are what they are, and that track induced braking heat weakens them, find any graph online that suits your fancy, it is still a fact, especially at the temps we might see on the track, and the drop off in strength is sharp and profound. Choose whatever decrease in strength you can accept is your choice, I'm not changing my driving line because of poorly chosen, lightweight alum drag hubs. Stating alum cools faster and therefore not an issue, completely ignores the fact it also heats faster, the bearing issue dovetails with the this, because smaller bearings/races are more likely mire prone to the heat expansion issues of the hub, in addition to the observation the wilwood hubs are not a Robust design, ie very thick in stressed areas, even when compared to steel OEM hubs, and alum needs to be thicker then steel in almost every case in similar applications, but you know all that.
Okay, been watching this back and forth. I think what csmopar is trying to say, or at least how I understand it from his posts, is that wilwoods uses aluminum hubs on ALL their kits for all brands. So if the hubs were an issue, they'd be having that issue on all brands. Also, seeing csmopar's challenge above about finding an example online of a wilwood hub failing, I tried as well, I didn't find anything when search "wilwood hub failure" other than this very thread. So maybe it has happened but perhaps it was years ago? I just dont know. while I was doing that though, I decided to check other "name brand" brake kits and see what they use for hubs for both mopar and mustang II. Baer Brakes: Uses aluminum hubs for all their big brake "road race kits" regardless of make or model, ford,chevy,mopar, etc Brembo: doesn't make kits for either, but scrolling thru the kits they do make, they also use aluminum hubs Aerospace: Aluminum hubs on ALL kits Wilwood: aluminum hubs on ALL kits Strange: Aluminum hubs on ALL kits SSBC: Aluminum hubs on ALL kits(kind of a misnomer considering their name) Heidts: Aluminum hubs on all kits for all brands These are just the companies i knew off of top of my head, others dont make kits for mopars, like brembo, but their hubs are aluminum as well. Yes, you can get cast iron hubs from any of the above, if you want stock brake rotors that aren't drill or slotted and that feature 1 or maybe 2 pistons. From what I' seen this morning, you CANNOT get an aftermarket brake system without getting aluminum hubs. So based on this, jcc, I think csmopar is right and I dont think his comment about you grasping at straw was off base or uncalled for. Im beginning to think you have something else to prove and are simply putting down mustang II spindles like you've tried to this entire thread. Mustang II spindles are used throughout the hobby, arguably as popular or more popular than C5 spindles. Surely if there was a problem, someone somewhere would report it. You seem to keep avoiding my main contention, heat effects alum much more significantly then steel. Why? Wilwood is the typically lightest alum hub from what I have seen. I thought my point was understanding that wilwood using any small bearing makes for a small hub, a large bearing, even though having higher bearing capacity, makes for a larger (stronger hub). The others I have less experience with. Alum can be and is best solution in almost all applications, IF the design is correct, concerning material, material thickness, additional cooling to reduce brake generated heat, and finally the intended application, drag vs open track, vehicle weight, track speeds, braking duty, driving style, tire/wheel combos, etc. Your list only means no one has reported failures or are not reaching the limits (show cars?), not that the design is ideal. I guess this discussion should really be for those that have track time that have actually had on track heat related brake issues/concerns vs those that have not. I'm speaking from the former. There are racing organizations (and/or manufacturers) that do not allow RF alum hubs, I suspect that reasoning is more based on fatigue failure from repeated high loads. The Ron Sutton alum hubs for instance and the Wilwood alum hubs are light years apart, and not intended to be part of this discussion. Oh goody, hes back. Seriously, prove me wrong. You claim that you have had the personal experience of having heat related hub failures, let's see the pictures of these hubs failing YOU due to heat. I can't fin a single report, from the scca forums to several pro touring forums, to google, to any website. In today's online age, if someone had aluminum hubs failing due to heat, someone would have posted it. But let's put that aside. You now claim that you've suffered such problems, alright, let's see the pictures. Let's see the proof. I'll dive more into material strength again later. But please, let's see these failures caused "inadequate aluminum hubs"
Last edited by csmopar; 10/29/16 12:16 PM.
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Re: Watts link for a mopar?
[Re: csmopar]
#2185306
10/29/16 02:57 PM
10/29/16 02:57 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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I'm out of quotes here. This most recent claim you are making that states I made claims, is incorrect in making that claim. I made no such claims as you state. You might want to reread what I wrote and return. You want a real deal alum hub, its right here. https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbt...tml#Post2179960
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Watts link for a mopar?
[Re: jcc]
#2185341
10/29/16 03:34 PM
10/29/16 03:34 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 183
usa
csmopar
member
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member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 183
usa
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You seem to keep avoiding my main contention, heat effects alum much more significantly then steel. Why?
Wilwood is the typically lightest alum hub from what I have seen. I thought my point was understanding that wilwood using any small bearing makes for a small hub, a large bearing, even though having higher bearing capacity, makes for a larger (stronger hub). The others I have less experience with. Alum can be and is best solution in almost all applications, IF the design is correct, concerning material, material thickness, additional cooling to reduce brake generated heat, and finally the intended application, drag vs open track, vehicle weight, track speeds, braking duty, driving style, tire/wheel combos, etc. Your list only means no one has reported failures or are not reaching the limits (show cars?), not that the design is ideal. I guess this discussion should really be for those that have track time that have actually had on track heat related brake issues/concerns vs those that have not. I'm speaking from the former.
There are racing organizations (and/or manufacturers) that do not allow RF alum hubs, I suspect that reasoning is more based on fatigue failure from repeated high loads.
The Ron Sutton alum hubs for instance and the Wilwood alum hubs are light years apart, and not intended to be part of this discussion.
here, I highlighted the very statement typed by YOU. You are implying that you are the former, aka the person experiencing such failures. So lets see them. You've yet to provide a single shred of evidence to back your theory in this entire thread. Seriously, other than this thread on google, find us where you have all this information as to aluminum hubs failing. Or even just Wilwood hubs for that matter.
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Re: Watts link for a mopar?
[Re: dusterpt440]
#2185394
10/29/16 05:39 PM
10/29/16 05:39 PM
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 656
Florida
CJD AUTOMOTIVE
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 656
Florida
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Guys, there is like 8 people on here that care about making a Mopar actually handle and stop like a modern car/race car. If we get into a pissing contest with one another, someone's going to end up leaving, and there is simply not enough of us for that to start happening!
Craig Scholl CJD Automotive, LLC Jacksonville, FL www.CJDAUTOMOTIVE.com904-400-1802 "I own a Mopar. I already know it won't be in stock, won't ship tomorrow, and won't fit without modification"
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Re: Watts link for a mopar?
[Re: Skeptic]
#2185406
10/29/16 06:04 PM
10/29/16 06:04 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,655
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
amxautox
Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
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Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,655
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
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For me it's fun to DRIVE the car. Then modify it, and then DRIVE it some more. It's also very fun and INFORMATIVE to read what others do to their cars that I wish I could do.
Tom
"Everyone should believe in something; I believe I'll go fishing."
-Henry David Thoreau
Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths
author unknown
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Re: Watts link for a mopar?
[Re: dusterpt440]
#2185453
10/29/16 08:10 PM
10/29/16 08:10 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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Some people spend their life splitting hair's instead of actually applying the hair's. I have aluminum hubs, and I know they're beefier than Wilwoods.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Watts link for a mopar?
[Re: csmopar]
#2185742
10/30/16 11:35 AM
10/30/16 11:35 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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You seem to keep avoiding my main contention, heat effects alum much more significantly then steel. Why?
Wilwood is the typically lightest alum hub from what I have seen. I thought my point was understanding that wilwood using any small bearing makes for a small hub, a large bearing, even though having higher bearing capacity, makes for a larger (stronger hub). The others I have less experience with. Alum can be and is best solution in almost all applications, IF the design is correct, concerning material, material thickness, additional cooling to reduce brake generated heat, and finally the intended application, drag vs open track, vehicle weight, track speeds, braking duty, driving style, tire/wheel combos, etc. Your list only means no one has reported failures or are not reaching the limits (show cars?), not that the design is ideal. I guess this discussion should really be for those that have track time that have actually had on track heat related brake issues/concerns vs those that have not. I'm speaking from the former.
There are racing organizations (and/or manufacturers) that do not allow RF alum hubs, I suspect that reasoning is more based on fatigue failure from repeated high loads.
The Ron Sutton alum hubs for instance and the Wilwood alum hubs are light years apart, and not intended to be part of this discussion.
here, I highlighted the very statement typed by YOU. You are implying that you are the former, aka the person experiencing such failures. So lets see them. You've yet to provide a single shred of evidence to back your theory in this entire thread. Seriously, other than this thread on google, find us where you have all this information as to aluminum hubs failing. Or even just Wilwood hubs for that matter. I guess we have found the core issue here, lack of reading comprehension, combined with conclusion jumping. "Failure" is your word, not mine, I said "issues/concerns". My "theory" has been for nth time, is alum gets weaker at low enough temps on this subject, that strength is effected negatively. You have yet to address that other then obliquely, by negating it overall because you can't find an online example. And Craig's point has a lot of validity, there are likely a very select few here that will ever drive into a corner at enough speed, and brake hard enough, repeatedly, to understand brake related temp issues. So you keep tapping your brakes lightly and checking online line for my imagery alum hub failures, and I'll keep my wilwood hubs on my show cars, while on my other cars I keep diving under others, while braking into the hairpins, lap after lap ,in the summer. 
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Watts link for a mopar?
[Re: Skeptic]
#2185750
10/30/16 11:52 AM
10/30/16 11:52 AM
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Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 27
Indiana
dusterpt440
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 27
Indiana
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JCC is the "conspiracy theory" guy or maybe "Don Quxote" He's got some things that he believes and no amount of contradictory evidence will change his mind. He just moves the goalposts of his argument, then wanders off. I.E. stirs up [censored]. Not quite a Troll, but close enough for me to use the "ignore this user" on him. I will occasionally click thru, because much like a broken clock, some useful info pops out of the dung. Haha. I agree.
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Re: Watts link for a mopar?
[Re: dusterpt440]
#2185753
10/30/16 12:06 PM
10/30/16 12:06 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
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Originally Posted By jcc
*** You are ignoring this user ***
Toggle the display of this post
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
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Re: Watts link for a mopar?
[Re: Supercuda]
#2185754
10/30/16 12:13 PM
10/30/16 12:13 PM
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Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 27
Indiana
dusterpt440
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 27
Indiana
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Originally Posted By jcc
*** You are ignoring this user ***
Toggle the display of this post I guess i missed this warning  So can we get back to my original question? Anyone else running this watts link kit (which doesn't even use aluminum hubs)
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Re: Watts link for a mopar?
[Re: Supercuda]
#2186067
10/30/16 07:31 PM
10/30/16 07:31 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 183
usa
csmopar
member
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member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 183
usa
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Re: Watts link for a mopar?
[Re: dusterpt440]
#2186140
10/30/16 09:08 PM
10/30/16 09:08 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
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Click on their name
view profile
click on ignore this user
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
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