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Can compression hurt power? #21450
01/16/06 08:07 PM
01/16/06 08:07 PM
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DaveDudek Offline OP
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Let`s assume a guy has the correct fuel, timing,ect. Can you over squeeze an engine and actually hurt power?

Let`s say a guy in a HEMI has a small cam and 9 to 1 compression is more than enough. Assuming the guy has the correct fuel will he *always* make more power with 12 to 1? What about 14 1/2 to 1. is there a point where it might hurt power?

Thanks!

Last edited by DaveDudek; 01/16/06 08:08 PM.

Dave Dudek
1st Factory Stock legal car in the 10`s!!! [/b]
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Post deleted by Defbob [Re: DaveDudek] #21451
01/16/06 08:33 PM
01/16/06 08:33 PM

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Re: Can compression hurt power? #21452
01/16/06 08:45 PM
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If you got enough heads cam you can run up to 18:1 with the right fuel and ignition.


Career best 8.02 @ 169 at 3050# and 10" tires small block power.
Re: Can compression hurt power? [Re: DaveDudek] #21453
01/16/06 09:24 PM
01/16/06 09:24 PM
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Quote:

Let`s assume a guy has the correct fuel, timing,ect. Can you over squeeze an engine and actually hurt power?

Let`s say a guy in a HEMI has a small cam and 9 to 1 compression is more than enough. Assuming the guy has the correct fuel will he *always* make more power with 12 to 1? What about 14 1/2 to 1. is there a point where it might hurt power?

Thanks!




There is a diminshing return when you get higher
and higher with the compression, its not a linaer
curve

Re: Can compression hurt power? [Re: DaveDudek] #21454
01/16/06 09:58 PM
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I know of a Ford racer that thought he had 14 to 1 comp. ratio and the motor made peak power at 7100, he took it to a good machine shop that check all of the measurements and found that he had a actual 11.4 to 1 ratio. They order new pistons and made sure that they ended up with 14.7 to 1 and the peak hp (with no other changes, jetting, timing, LSA, valve springs, type of fuel or nothing else) moved up to 8400 rpm and gain a bunch of power. I can call him and get the exact differences and so on if you want. That Hemi is real hard to get to much compression in just like Hemifred said, I guarentee it. The tighter you squeeze good gas before you light the fire the better it will burn and the more power it will produce.

Last edited by C_A_Cab_Burge; 01/17/06 02:33 AM.

Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Can compression hurt power? [Re: DaveDudek] #21455
01/17/06 06:15 AM
01/17/06 06:15 AM

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Changing squeeze requires you to change other things to "optimize" your return. Fred made a great point. Getting the most out of a fuel can sometimes be as efficient in getting some extra power as opposed to just changing the compression ratio.

This is one of Dvorak's pet arm chair engineering projects. He makes the piston top and valve relief to fit the chamber so he can get as much as possible. Here's a blurb and a few photos.

High Compression HEMI

Re: Can compression hurt power? #21456
01/17/06 07:30 AM
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It's a diminishing return after a certain point; the pumping losses from compressing the mixture more actually outweigh the extra power made from the compression.

Nick


1970 Plymouth Valiant
Re: Can compression hurt power? [Re: Mooosman] #21457
01/17/06 08:13 AM
01/17/06 08:13 AM
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DaveDudek Offline OP
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Quote:

It's a diminishing return after a certain point; the pumping losses from compressing the mixture more actually outweigh the extra power made from the compression.

Nick




That`s what I`m thinking? HemiFred also wrote that the prostocks only used 12to 1 because of the burn.

This year I`m increaseing the throw of the crank to 4.25. (497 cubes). I`m also gonna add more compression. I had 12.8 and now I`m guessing 14 to 1.

My cam baseline cam will be 256in/262ex 700ish lift, 112LC. 12.8 is More than enough compression for that cam. I don`t want to go backwards adding 14 to 1. But if it can help power I want it. What would you guy`s do. I need to make up some killer ET on the top half of the track.


Dave Dudek
1st Factory Stock legal car in the 10`s!!! [/b]
FAST & Factory Stock Rules: www.fastraces.org


FAST 69 Hemi RR 9.98@139
Re: Can compression hurt power? [Re: DaveDudek] #21458
01/17/06 09:08 AM
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You WILL make more power going with the higher compression. I have NEVER heard of anyone losing power by adding compression assuming the fuel octane was correct. Like Cab said the harder you squeeze it the more power it will make. -Bob

Re: Can compression hurt power? [Re: BobR] #21459
01/17/06 10:20 AM
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Quote:

What would you guy`s do. I need to make up some killer ET on the top half of the track.




If it will be a new combo all together, I'd opt for more CR since you're in the short block, but have someone pick a cam that uses all the available variables (gear ratio/shift recovery/etc.) to optimize/reduce your 330'-1320' times.

More squeeze without other changes in cam duration, fuel spec and timing may also result in more torque that can't be coupled to the track in the first 330', thereby slowing 1320' ETs even with more power. That balance is tough to achieve when you're traction limited. Been there, done that.

Re: Can compression hurt power? #21460
01/17/06 11:19 AM
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Quote:

Quote:

What would you guy`s do. I need to make up some killer ET on the top half of the track.




If it will be a new combo all together, I'd opt for more CR since you're in the short block, but have someone pick a cam that uses all the available variables (gear ratio/shift recovery/etc.) to optimize/reduce your 330'-1320' times.

More squeeze without other changes in cam duration, fuel spec and timing may also result in more torque that can't be coupled to the track in the first 330', thereby slowing 1320' ETs even with more power. That balance is tough to achieve when you're traction limited. Been there, done that.




Another way is to run a lesser converter, soft out
of the hole and big charge on the top end, but its
a balance on the converter where its not a mutt
out of the hole

Re: Can compression hurt power? [Re: DaveDudek] #21461
01/17/06 12:53 PM
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Don't you have a programmable MSD7? If so you can control traction out of the hole with the timing curve now. If so I would look to shorten up the lobe centers to 110 instead of the wider 112 you have now, especially with the stroker,


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Can compression hurt power? [Re: DaveDudek] #21462
01/17/06 03:08 PM
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Too much static compression can definitely hurt horsepower in most engines and especially in a Hemi. Horsepower potential is dependant on dynamic compression, not static compression. Too much static compression coupled with "short" cam timing will result in a engine that will not produce the desired HP. The cam timing must be matched to the static copmpression ratio to keep the dynamic compression within a workable range. You cannot make acceptable HP with a huge duration cam in a low compression motor, nor with a small duration cam in a high compression motor.

A 426 style Hemi also has potential trouble with adequate flame travel and flow through the cylinder during the overlap period. Too tall of a dome will inhibit the flame travel and/or detract from the "chamber cleaning" during the overlap period. The original prostock motors used 12.5 compression because anything greater caused these inherent problems. The 99 hemi uses a flatter chamber and dome to combat these problems, as well as offering a shorter and lighter piston compression height. Current Prostock racers start with 17 + compression, dyno the motor, work on flame travel until colorization/HP is optimized (usually around 15 to 15.5 Static compression). Large cube wedge style motors do not suffer from these flame travel problems because their dome is very short or non-existent. Flame travel will always take precedence over static compression ratio.


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Re: Can compression hurt power? [Re: mbogina] #21463
01/17/06 04:10 PM
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DaveDudek Offline OP
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Quote:

Too much static compression can definitely hurt horsepower in most engines and especially in a Hemi. Horsepower potential is dependant on dynamic compression, not static compression. Too much static compression coupled with "short" cam timing will result in a engine that will not produce the desired HP. The cam timing must be matched to the static copmpression ratio to keep the dynamic compression within a workable range. You cannot make acceptable HP with a huge duration cam in a low compression motor, nor with a small duration cam in a high compression motor.

A 426 style Hemi also has potential trouble with adequate flame travel and flow through the cylinder during the overlap period. Too tall of a dome will inhibit the flame travel and/or detract from the "chamber cleaning" during the overlap period. The original prostock motors used 12.5 compression because anything greater caused these inherent problems. The 99 hemi uses a flatter chamber and dome to combat these problems, as well as offering a shorter and lighter piston compression height. Current Prostock racers start with 17 + compression, dyno the motor, work on flame travel until colorization/HP is optimized (usually around 15 to 15.5 Static compression). Large cube wedge style motors do not suffer from these flame travel problems because their dome is very short or non-existent. Flame travel will always take precedence over static compression ratio.




Damn....


Dave Dudek
1st Factory Stock legal car in the 10`s!!! [/b]
FAST & Factory Stock Rules: www.fastraces.org


FAST 69 Hemi RR 9.98@139
Re: Can compression hurt power? [Re: DaveDudek] #21464
01/17/06 04:19 PM
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All of that stuff is true but using an increased stroke you will not need as much of a dome to get to 14-1. Flame travel is important but you should not have to give up optimum flame travel to get to 14-1 using increased stroke. -Bob

Re: Can compression hurt power? [Re: DaveDudek] #21465
01/17/06 04:19 PM
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It would take a lot, but perhaps the extra stroke means the pistons could be "worked" to better fit the chamger, and to better "herd" the mixture where you want it...Like Barton's hand fitting jobs. Are you simply l;ooking for more piston speed at a lower rpm Dave? Because I'd think that too much arm will hurt your first 330'. Maybe you should be looking at a higher rpm range instead of crank? I'm not into them, but I'd think a high rpm lower cube engine would breath better thru your manifolding, and loose a bit of torque which is what you want. With FAST rules, it would be very hard to get away with the MSD timing contorller ignitions..They neeed a #1 cylinder reference, and the probe will be visible, even if nothing else is.

Re: Can compression hurt power? [Re: mbogina] #21466
01/17/06 04:42 PM
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dave, at 15.5/1 you wouldnt have anymore of a problem with flame travel, or crossflow at overlap than a 440 cu in race hemi engine with 13.5/1. the added stroke gives you more swept volume, therefore giving more compression.

now with what mike said,, with added static compression you would have more heat being put in the mixture, therefore having a greater chance of detonation or you will have to run a more stable(higher octane) fuel. with more compression you would make more torque all over unless detonation would come into play.

jeff

Re: Can compression hurt power? [Re: DaveDudek] #21467
01/17/06 05:27 PM
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Flame travel aside, by increasing the cubic inches and static compression, the dynamic compression will increase, possibly pushing the envelope on your current camshaft beyond its "sweet spot" and into a situation where longer timing events or smaller LCA may be required.


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Re: Can compression hurt power? [Re: mbogina] #21468
01/17/06 05:46 PM
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yes,, with the added compression you can burn fuel faster due to the additional heat put into it by compression,, so you can open the exh valve earlier,, but in a sense youd have to close the intake valve earlier if the inertia is the same in the intake port/runner.

mike if you were building an unlimited engine where you needed the most power you could make,, youd put less piston dome in it than a ss race hemi,, 105 dome,, like 100,, or 95 or something? i was going to fit the same piston i used in a few s/s engines in daves engine which is 104ish dome,,, would yeild 15.5/1 because the added stroke.

mike,, i see youre getting addicted to moparts,, lol


jeff


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Re: Can compression hurt power? [Re: DaveDudek] #21469
01/17/06 06:23 PM
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Dave, I think the Hemi is a special case when it comes to compression vs. power.

Vizard did a great engine project a few years ago where he dyno tested a SBC with old style dome pistons. Then he took the motor apart, machined some material off the tops of the domes and redid the dyno test. I believe he redid this test 3 times and went from something around 13:1 down to 10:1. If I recall, the power actually went up a small amount as the compression decreased.

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