Im haaving a hard time finding any other than diamond. Who else sells a piston like I am after? I know someone else has to make them Its not like I am the only guy building a lil engine like this...

440 source does, but they have .990 pin size so different rods would be needed.

That's the issues Im running into. Precision engine products sells a billet I beam rod in the low 300 range for money, I could easily have that into a set of LY rods. So I may e going in that direction.

You can bush the LY rods for .990" pins, but like you said, you'd likely have enough into the LYs that you could have bought some stronger aftermarket rods. Just make sure you have the cheap aftermarket rods checked for size...they'll probably need resizing.

Yes for sure on the checking. I was told by the local shop that its like 25-30 per rod to have them bushed. I just got off the phone with mancinni and they told me that diamond can do changes at 6 bucks per change to a point. So with using the 516907 piston, changing the bore to 4.290, and making the pin to 1.094 it would be 96 extra bucks per set of 8 so like 740 bucks for 8 pistons. Im good with that. Ill just polish the LY rods, and put my ARP bolts in them and be done with it. the LY is going to be fine for my application anyways. If I still had the tools at my disposal Id swedge some bushings in the rods myself and pin fit them myself, but Im way away from those tools anymore.

4.090" bore???
You're gonna have those LYs resized after you put the ARP bolts in them right?

Sorry 4.290

.040 over is where my block is at.

What CH piston are you looking for ?

1.5

This spec with a 4.290 bore and a 1.094 stock pin.


Bore (in): 4.280

Stroke (in): 3.375

Rod Length (in): 6.768

Piston Material: Forged aluminum

Piston Style: Flat Top

Compression Distance (in): 1.516

Dish Volume (cc): -4.0

Pin: .990 x 2.930

Piston Ring Grooves: 1/16" x 1/16" x 3/16"

Quantity: Sold as a set of 8

So what is the problem ? Call a Diamond WD, or Diamond direct, and make it happen. 2 changes to a shelf stock piston is a small up charge, they will make it in your bore size with the big pin.

If you are indeed running a 440 crank in a low deck with a RB length rod that compression height is not going to work for you

Ross part #99894 could work if changed for 4.290 bore

Whay is the compression height I need for the 440 rod and 440 stroke?

1.320-1.330 range

They make a piston, 51950 that's for a 3.75 stroke, and a .990 pin. Id need to have them make it a 4.290 bore, and Ill just buy the PEP rod from Hughes. That's only 1 change and im there.

Prolly better to run the PEP rod with the .990 pin and the floating pin end anyways.

x2, right?

Oh yeah that was the plan, now Im just going the PEP rout since ill have 300ish into the LY rods by the time I pay the machinist

Good idea , buy the cheapest of cheap chinese junk rods possible ....

What material are those CCJ rods made of ???

so buy the Diamonds. They are good people to deal with and they make a good product.

I know many people have run Chinese stuff w/o problems, but when they happen they're $$$.
You can correct the dims (but that reduces the price advantage), it's the inclusion/heat-treat/alloy stuff you can't see that makes me nervous.

Just like the stock market: you have to know your risk tolerance.

Damn John, don't sugar coat it.

THe PEP rod is like any rod. Check it and go from there. If the things need any work they go back to hughes. Simple.

My eagle rods needed work too. Hell the rods in many engine builds on here need work.

If im dumb enough to buy them, stick them in and run them and it goes bang, yeah my problem as I didn't check.

How many guys run 440 sources junk and have no issues? a lot. This is a very mild build. No reason to spend big coin.

If the block wasn't rough bored to .040 over I wouldn't be worried to run a resized LY, but its not worth it to stick over 350-400 bucks into my stock rods.

He must own the company that makes Oliver or Lentz rods and Chinese products sicken him.
I wouldn't hesitate to use them with the expectation that Hughes would make it right if they were really out of shape, but damn they are heavy

Yeah they are heavy....

Ill give ya that LOL

Whats a stock set of LYs weigh? Ive never checked....

Just googled it,

A guy on Abodies forum said they weigh 860, and 920 with bearings, so these are actually heavier.

440Source stuff isn't cheap junk, there are many stroker kits in board members' cars and they have shown themselves to be dependable. Your slam on them was unnecessary.

Hughes' less expensive stuff seems to work all right, they have a reputation to protect. Any manmade item can have flaws.

Reality is what I've posted before, the stock block will give up long before the connecting rod, if it has a 7/16" bolt. Lightening up the piston makes the connecting rod's job easier, so putting $$$ into a piston first makes sense to me.

I believe that PEP is the successor to C.A.T., and I'd put them in the lower end of the spectrum, yet they're still stronger than the block. I believe Uncle Cab has used either a CAT crank or set of rods in his racecar with no failures.

For calculations, the aftermarket rods usually list length as 6.760, 0.008 shorter than stock length.

R.

The complaint about the rods being heavy is hilarious coming from a board using the heaviest pistons in the known universe!

Yes I slammed 440 source, just because my first hand experience.


Head castings very sketchy, the few rods of theirs Ive used were sketchy at best, and I know of a few other guys with huge crankshaft issues, so no I prolly shouldn't have slammed them on such a broad spectrum, but I did.

I agree with your piston theory, I have DIamond slugs in 3 of the engines I have, I like them a lot, I continue to use them.

Such is why Im using them on this low power engine.

R.

The complaint about the rods being heavy is hilarious coming from a board using the heaviest pistons in the known universe! [/quote]

I personally would rather have a meaty rod since I never encounter the need for a ultra light fast revving bottom end.

Surely you are familiar with bobweight calculations and realize that the weight of big end of the rod with bearings has a more significant impact than the reciprocating end? Pay for ONE balance job where you put mallory into a stock crank and it wouldn't be hilarious any more. Not saying that this is his situation but it is always wise to use lighter than stock components on these type of builds

mallory at my local shop is ridiculous, like 100 bucks a slug

I wish I did

I asked a legit question , are these 4340 ... or whatever the chinese are passing off as 4340 these days , or are they 5140, which is the same as a stock LY rod ?

The confusing part is they are listed as 750 Hp and the other rods they sell listed with more specs and listed for a couple hundred more is rated for 800HP . the I beam rod is stronger by design than an H beam so WHY is this CCJ rod rated at less HP ??

It's not my engine, or my money, he can use whatever he wants ...

the 4340 material is a ANSI spec so if its Chinese, Italian, German, Russian, or American steel, if its sold here it has to pass that spec, so 4340 is 4340.

It is my engine, and the rod should be just fine in any engine, especially if checked over. This is going to be balanced also so that's gonna aid in the debate as well.

If it blows up Ill post it and take the heat, but a 440 cranked 383 at 433ish CI balanced with lower compression and a decent cam on mild valvtrain isn't going to go much north of 6500 RPM, so it should live just fine.

THis was an honest post asking an honest question not intended to be a pissing match.

So you really think the Chinese, or others, don't lie ??



... good luck with the build

Ummm that'll put your CR at around 7:1 with a 440 crank.

Darth, I have the wrong stroke on there, its 3.75

Even if you didnt the comp distance would tell you you'd be close to .20 out of the hole

Yah..

Those pistons will sit 0.179 in the hole @ a 9.98" Deck height.

BS

[censored]... positive .179 LMFAO. Sorry

If that's with labor, that's the going rate here in Chicago. It's kinda a PITA to put heavy metal in right. S/F....Ken M

Thats the price I paid installed... had 3 chunks
put in.. always from the sides

I put a 440 crank in a 383 25 years ago. I had the counters turned down to clear the pistons and the block. I used beam polished 383 rods and modified TRW pistons. This was before cheap stroker kits were on the market.

I cut .175" off the top of the piston and trimmed the bottom of the pin bosses. It shaved about 200 grams off each piston.

The TRW l2315f-30 slug still had well over .2" of material in the center and thickened up considerably as you moved out towards the ring lands. In fact, the centering hole in the middle of the head on the forging used to mount the piston on the lathe was still visible.

The crank took at least six slugs of mallory and over $1k to finish and balance.

Just sayin' save a little on the pistons and rods now may cost you more in the long run when it's time to balance.

...

That shows a 1.5 compression height, THe pistons diamond makes, and the one I listed is wrong.

I posted the wrong number before....

Fits: Big Block, 383 w/440 Rod

Bore (in): 4.280

Stroke (in): 3.750

Rod Length (in): 6.768

Piston Material: Forged aluminum

Piston Style: Flat Top

Compression Distance (in): 1.320

Dish Volume (cc): -4.0

Pin: .990 x 2.930

Piston Ring Grooves: 1/16" x 1/16" x 3/16"

Quantity: Sold as a set of 8

that puts me at .025 in the hole

I have to do the math , it shouldn't be that deep , have you had the block squared yet ? If not do it FIRST , order piston in the bore size you need and tweak the CH

The block is at the shop waiting on pistons. He is squaring the block, and also checking counter weight clearance. Some take shaving and some don't I guess so he is checking that as well.

I repeat: Complaining about 20 grams in an engine that came stock with piston/pin assemblies that were over 1000 grams is hilarious.

Yes I know the generally accepted balancing formula for V8s. Take 40 grams off the piston/pin and the 20 grams goes away, IF the extra weight is concentrated at the big end. If it's the result of a slightly heavier than stock rod beam then it'll be less than 20 grams. Lightening the rod journal would be my fix, like Chrysler did on the 340.

Suggesting someone will need Mallory because of an extra 20 grams in connecting rod weight is pure and simple "putting up a straw man to knock it down". That doesn't fly at the debate club and not here, either.

R.

As for the Chinese lying about metal composition, if they are indeed trying to do that, it's why we aren't buying directly from them. The middlemen, i.e. the Eagles, Scats, 440Sources, RPMs, Hughes, etc are doing the due diligence. They have to keep tabs on the product or else go out of business. That shouldn't be too hard to understand.

My block is decked, and he went to a 9.865, and with the piston we decided on that puts me .0010 in the hole.

So Im pretty good with that.

9.865 most likely a typo
9.965?

nope. He took .015 off one side and .018 off the other side.

For your sake I hope its not 9.865

why? it comes out to .010 in the hole.

Because 9.865 is .115 short of blueprint deck height (9.98)

IDK I just know what he told me, and the block had factory stamps on it, so I don't think its been super decked. Ill call him Monday to double check.

Aren't you an engineering professor? A data driven field where ASSumptions can yield catastrophic results?
How do you know what bobweight his current crank was balanced at?
Yes the rod is 20 grams heavier total, it also has a .104 smaller wrist pin bore, who is to say the rod is not 85 grams heavier than a stock rod on the big end?
My point is no one in this thread has the data to determine if the crank will balance out fine or need mallory and no need to call in the debate team

For reference. I'm putting a 452 together right now using a factory 3.75 440 crank. Because I have parts laying about. I took .120 off the counterweights with a lathe, and still had to heavily bevel the edges and grind the block for clearance.

Using a 1.12 CH Icon piston(IC827-granted, super light) and a Manley 6.965 hemi rod(heavy thing like 960 gms IIRC), the bobweight is just over 2320grams, I have to take over 180 gms off the crank on both ends still.

A 1.200 inch piece(what commonly fits in BB cranks) of 1 inch diameter Mallory adds something like 120gms gain to a crank. I'm at home of else I'd actually look. 6 pieces is roughly +300gms on either end. I find that incredibly hard to believe on a wedge build...any wedge build.

I think you got sodomized by the guy balancing that crank, or maybe they went crazy when turning the CW's. S/F....Ken M

I think you got sodomized by the guy balancing that crank, or maybe they went crazy when turning the CW's. S/F....Ken M

Probably both. I counted the sticks. Never again. I was just a wee pup back then and didn't know no better. I be a whittle smarter now.

We figured were gonna have to take .150 to clear. I sure hope cause Im having a hard time finding a machinist who wants to do it. They all seem scared to make the cut. I told them all its no big deal, I wish I had a lathe good enough cause I would do it myself but the one I have access to is way to outa spec and would sing like a canary if I chucked it up.

Intermittent cuts scare ppl. I think .200 would do it unless you bevel the edges pretty heavy. Don't be scared to break out the grinder and just bevel the crank yourself, that's what I'm doing/did. Unless you're swinging 6 pack rods and some lump of metal pistons, it's still going to be a remove balance job.

Or just clamp it in V blocks and mill it, then pretty up the high spots with a grinder. This isn't rocket science. S/F....Ken M

I was going to ask if anyone has went at it with a grinder but then figured JohnRR would really hammer on me LOL

Seriously though, I found a shop that will take 150ish off the counter weights for 50 bucks, and then Ill get the thing fit with a grinder from there...

Im not scared to get after it with my 4".

When I built my 451 many years ago I just lightly beveled the 440 crank and took my 4" angle grinder to the inside of the block. It didn't take much work at all but the shop that balanced it did [censored] about it. Lots of drilling. They weren't into the big engines so much.

The interrupted cut is no big deal. I wrote all of this up 20 years ago. Fairly simple to drop the crank in a lathe and turn down the counterweights and then put a chamfer on them. With a little bit of math you can figure out how far to turn down the counterweights to get the bobweight right on. We used to turn down the 440 cranks and then only have to drill a tiny bit to get the assembly to balance. I haven't turned a crank in years though since the stroker cranks have gotten so cheap. I do still have a stash of steel 440 cranks on the shelf but not sure I'll ever use them. I did finally throw away all of the stock rods I had been hoarding.

Here is a picture of a 383 stroker rotating assembly. Diamond piston, 440Source rod and a 413 crank that was in process of being turned down. If you look close you can see the spud mounted on the crank flange for the lathe. Using an aluminum spud allows the lathe chuck to grab hold of something solid rather than trying to grab on the flange. On the other end you use a live center that goes in the nose of the crank. Runout is usually less than 0.001 when using this setup.

That set up is from the magazine build from hot rod or mopar performance IIRC.

I wish 440 source still sold that rod.

Yeah that was a sweet little engine. I blew it up when I put 7000 rpm heads and cam on top of a 6000 rpm shortblock. Learned a lesson the hard way.

spuds are super easy to whip up, and unless your chuck is messed up, and the point of your tail stock is gakked, runout is as you said; just a thou or two. one thing to remember about an interrupted is, you need a nice, ridged tool post with a cutting tool that is up to the job, which means [in my mind at least] an inserted holder of 1" square or so. not a wobblechuck baby toy lathe 3/8"-1/2" brazed insert tool. the tail stock needs to be a nice, ridged unit as well.