Re: Need help.. dart still wont start
[Re: mopower440]
#208007
01/29/09 07:00 PM
01/29/09 07:00 PM
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Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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you might check your reluctor gap and or plug in an extra dist & spin it by hand & see if it gives you a good spark.
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Re: Need help.. dart still wont start
[Re: mopower440]
#208010
01/29/09 07:45 PM
01/29/09 07:45 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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Yeah I had a couple of ECU's go bad just from sitting, threw me for awhile especially by the 3rd time I wasn't even thinking ECU.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Need help.. dart still wont start
[Re: mopower440]
#208011
01/29/09 08:03 PM
01/29/09 08:03 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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.008 but you might reduce it to .006 but make that at the closest part as the reluctor/magnet usually aren't parallel & note your shaft side play while you're at it.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Need help.. dart still wont start
[Re: mopower440]
#208013
01/29/09 08:34 PM
01/29/09 08:34 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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You might take the dist that's in it out & spin it & see what you get for spark & check the other (2)basics fuel & compression. Plugs look OK? It just started acting up out of the clear blue w nothing being changed.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Need help.. dart still wont start
[Re: mopower440]
#208017
01/30/09 08:51 PM
01/30/09 08:51 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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could you have some one crank w the key while you hold the coil wire 1/4" from ground & see if there's continuous sparks
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Re: Need help.. dart still wont start
[Re: mopower440]
#208022
01/31/09 02:39 PM
01/31/09 02:39 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,863 middle Tennessee
mopower440
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well, i took the distributor out of the block and spun it and it is making spark, i even tried the other 2 ecu's that are supposedly bad and they made the same spark, It is a bluish purple spark, i just pulled a plug wire off and stuck another plug in it while i spun the distributor, i also pulled the coil wire out of the coil a little bit and spun the distributor and it made bunches of spark. with the ballast plugged up im only getting 5.5 volts to the coil and with the ballast bypassed im getting 8.5 volts to the coil..still wont run after all this messing, i did ohm the pickup coil and its 276 and it changes if i spin the distributor shaft but ends up back at 276, saw on the tech archives that it should be between 375-425, but i thought these either worked or didnt work at all, meaning no spark produced? what the heck do i do now?
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Re: Need help.. dart still wont start
[Re: mopower440]
#208024
01/31/09 03:04 PM
01/31/09 03:04 PM
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Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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We got good spark. & those voltage readings were during cranking? I would still keep it simple & check compression EDIT your ECU's/dist pickup are good. If your initial is good is it possible that the chain has jumped? Please do a compression test.
Last edited by RapidRobert; 01/31/09 03:09 PM.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Need help.. dart still wont start
[Re: RapidRobert]
#208025
01/31/09 10:48 PM
01/31/09 10:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,863 middle Tennessee
mopower440
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Should the spark be blue or yellow? I dont know what else to do after today. I went and bought yet another ecu, same thing, then i bought a new pickup coil, still nothing, tried running another ground strap from the engine to the body, nothing, took apart the bulkhead connector, everything fine, change the coil, still nothing, bypassed the ballast, same thing, what else is there possibly? Just puzzles the crap out of me because it acts EXACTLY like it did when i swapped the ecu and that fixed it then, but not now..I dont think the timing chain jumped, i built this engine about 5 years ago and it probably has 1500 miles on it and has never given a problem. Im about ready to throw in the towel and sell it, but i have 11 years invested in this car and finally got it where i want it, and now i cant get it to run..I built it 10 years ago and its NEVER gave me any trouble..
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Re: Need help.. dart still wont start
[Re: mopower440]
#208026
01/31/09 11:08 PM
01/31/09 11:08 PM
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Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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Blue spark is hotter yellow is weaker. Dont throw in the towel we will get this. Ok: we have a nice blue/purple spark(& dist timed conservatively at 5 or 10 before). Fuel, I think you're on top of that(& the plugs would most likely indicate if there was a problem either bone dry or wet fouled) so I would take 20 minutes & do a compression test. (in fact I'll pay you to do it). just kidding EDIT I reread your orig post & not a compression issue because you put in another ECU & it fired up(for awhile). to recap: with a helper cranking w THE KEY you have a nice/blue spark with the coil wire 1/4" away from ground?
Last edited by RapidRobert; 02/01/09 01:11 AM.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Need help.. dart still wont start
[Re: mopower440]
#208027
02/01/09 09:07 AM
02/01/09 09:07 AM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 46 Summerfield,FLorida
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have you tried starting at the basics? check comporession adn timing? get #1 lined up make sure everything is where it is supposed to be.if you have spark down to teh plugs and good fuel,than you have a base engine concern.Ive seen tining cahins fail way before thier time-even double roller chains and less than 10,000 miles.The mopar electronic system is pretty simple.pull teh cap off and actually watch teh dist turn as you crank the engine.if you have a good spark at teh end of the wire,good fuel,and proper timing,look at internal engine.
67 Charger 383 6 pak
68 Charger 383 Magnum
73 Charger 383
72 Coronet R/T 4 speed wagon
98 Dodge Ram
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Re: Need help.. dart still wont start
[Re: MO_PA]
#208033
02/01/09 10:26 AM
02/01/09 10:26 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200 Upper Midwest
MoparforLife
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Quote:
I had a similar problem with a /6, the solution was to charge the battery. Even though the engine spun quickly it would not start until after the battery was charged. Problem went away and never returned!
I agree that it sounds like battery or grounds or a combination of both, but this has been hashed and rehashed along with about everything else. Reason I made the help statement above. Time to get hands competent on help.
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Re: Need help.. dart still wont start
[Re: MoparforLife]
#208034
02/01/09 10:33 AM
02/01/09 10:33 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,863 middle Tennessee
mopower440
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Thats whats making me so dang mad..i am competent, i built this car from nothing but a shell and its always been fine, NEVER any ignition problems, and there just isnt much to the ignition on these things..when it did this the first time and a new ecu fixed it, it made sense since the ecu was an autozone unit and about 10 years old now. But now the ecu's are not correcting the problem EVEN THOUGH its acting IDENTICAL to the way it did when the ecu went out..just like it, get it cranking over and it will sputter a fe times but never start, JUST like before when the new ecu fixed it. When the car is fine, it never sputters or 'tries' to hit like this, it just VROMM, fires up like thunder..
Last edited by mopower440; 02/01/09 10:40 AM.
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Re: Need help.. dart still wont start
[Re: RapidRobert]
#208036
02/01/09 12:28 PM
02/01/09 12:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,861 Gloucester,VA STOP MOVING HERE
RangerDan440
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I just went through the same problem with the 440 in my Fury, ran fine when I parked it, left it for about a month and then wouldnt start.
Mine turned out it to be it only needed new plugs since the old ones were so old and got gas soaked enough while trying to start it in cold weather to not fire after a sitting a while but that was after I went through every ignition component, swapping distributors and I actually pulled the carb and rebuilt it (it needed it anyway)
Look for excessive play in the distributor shaft and then pull the dist and go through it; might be time for a rebuild or replacement. Also put a stethoscope against the front cover while someone cranks it and listen to the timing chain; if its broke or jumped you can hear it and Ive had double rollers fail.
68 Valiant 408 69 Charger 318 69 Cougar 351W 70 Torino GT 351C 71 Country Squire 351W 71 Road Runner 440+6 71 Satellite sedan 318 73 Duster 318 73 Challenger 383 77 Grand Prix 455 83 Malibu 9C1 383 84 Delta 88 403 87 Grand National 96 Ram 360 09 Crown Vic 10 Challenger R/T M6 15 Challenger Hellcat M6
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Re: Need help.. dart still wont start
[Re: mopower440]
#208037
02/01/09 01:26 PM
02/01/09 01:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200 Upper Midwest
MoparforLife
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Quote:
Thats whats making me so dang mad..i am competent, i built this car from nothing but a shell and its always been fine, NEVER any ignition problems, and there just isnt much to the ignition on these things..when it did this the first time and a new ecu fixed it, it made sense since the ecu was an autozone unit and about 10 years old now. But now the ecu's are not correcting the problem EVEN THOUGH its acting IDENTICAL to the way it did when the ecu went out..just like it, get it cranking over and it will sputter a fe times but never start, JUST like before when the new ecu fixed it. When the car is fine, it never sputters or 'tries' to hit like this, it just VROMM, fires up like thunder..
I am not questioning your competency or anything like that but the thing is it seems that you like the rest of us can look at something so long and so much that we tend to over look something that would jump out an bite a new look. (been there) I am still questioning if you have checked all your engine grounds. Remember that just because the engine cranks over and that you have the battery grounded to the radiator support or to the body of the vehicle it is not nessessarly grounding the engine and the engine needs a good ground to properly operate the ignition system. The engine like I have said has not a good ground with out having a separate ground from it to the body of the vehicle because the engine and everything back is mounted with rubber insulators.. Usually from the rear of the engine to the fire wall.
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Re: Need help.. dart still wont start
[Re: MoparforLife]
#208038
02/01/09 04:15 PM
02/01/09 04:15 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,863 middle Tennessee
mopower440
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Been at it all day again and still nothing. Ok, i checked for TDC and made sure timing has not jumped, its dead on still, compression is 150-155, as it was also, so the engine is fine thank god. So i dig in my box of junk and i had another ECU plug, so i made my own harness with it to eliminate it being a wiring problem of the cars harness, still same crap!! Did just the same, so the engine and wiring are ok for sure..I then took all 3 ecu's i have and directly clamped them to the engine itself to make damn sure they were grounded, same thing although the old rusty one seemed to make it 'try' to hit a little better than the new one and the other failed one i had..The ONLY 2 things i have not bought new for it is the coil and the reluctor ring in the distributor, but i did try another coil that i have, should be good but not positive. Can the reluctor ring be bad? I dont see how being that it just spins and the pickup coil's magnetization picks up on it..? If the coil was bad would it still produce a spark like it is but maybe not strong enough? Ive never seen anything like this ever! Old mopars have always been second nature to me till this..HELP!!
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Re: Need help.. dart still wont start
[Re: mopower440]
#208039
02/01/09 05:37 PM
02/01/09 05:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200 Upper Midwest
MoparforLife
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Quote:
Been at it all day again and still nothing. Ok, i checked for TDC and made sure timing has not jumped, its dead on still, compression is 150-155, as it was also, so the engine is fine thank god. So i dig in my box of junk and i had another ECU plug, so i made my own harness with it to eliminate it being a wiring problem of the cars harness, still same crap!! Did just the same, so the engine and wiring are ok for sure..I then took all 3 ecu's i have and directly clamped them to the engine itself to make damn sure they were grounded, same thing although the old rusty one seemed to make it 'try' to hit a little better than the new one and the other failed one i had..The ONLY 2 things i have not bought new for it is the coil and the reluctor ring in the distributor, but i did try another coil that i have, should be good but not positive. Can the reluctor ring be bad? I dont see how being that it just spins and the pickup coil's magnetization picks up on it..? If the coil was bad would it still produce a spark like it is but maybe not strong enough? Ive never seen anything like this ever! Old mopars have always been second nature to me till this..HELP!!
You still to me are not saying if the engine has a ground to the body. Needs to have one. Battery ground to body is not grounding the engine and the engine needs a ground to the body. grounding the ECU to the engine is meaningless if the engine hasn't it own ground to the body or frame. I repeat the engine has not got a good ground without the separate ground. If you have one fine but if you don't get one on and try it. Like I said they are usually from the rear of the head or bell housing to the firewall.
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Re: Need help.. dart still wont start
[Re: mopower440]
#208042
02/01/09 06:53 PM
02/01/09 06:53 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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The compression is good, the dist is timed right & it is putting out a healthy bluish/purple spark, cranking speed is good. Correct so far?. If the plugs are still OK as stumpy said & by the way are they bone dry when you check them? I'd shoot a shot of starting fluid in the carb & try it. People have referred to it as "liquid sand" but I've used it on many baffling hard to start situations & it's got me going.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Need help.. dart still wont start
[Re: mopower440]
#208046
02/01/09 08:12 PM
02/01/09 08:12 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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they will not fire if they are wet. spray the plugs with starting fluid to clean/dry them, blow them off to dry them & put them in after they dry & shoot some starting fluid in the carb primaries while holding the throttle open. A good 2 second blast. Pump the gas SPARINGLY as in no more than 1 or 2 pumps max & dont pump it at all until it's cranked for a bit. Shoot more starting fluid if needed. We are wanting to get this to fire on starting fluid rather than on gas which is easily flooding it. Lets get this thing going before the super bowl starts.
Last edited by RapidRobert; 02/01/09 08:31 PM.
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Re: Need help.. dart still wont start
[Re: RapidRobert]
#208047
02/01/09 08:52 PM
02/01/09 08:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200 Upper Midwest
MoparforLife
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I would just for go trying to clean the plugs after all the trying you have done and put in a new set. Also when trying to start it with the starting fluid Make sure that the choke is open and that you hold the throttle WIDE open. even if you try the old plugs hold the throttle wide open to unload a possible flooding condition. Leaving the throttle closed only aggravates a flooded condition if that is what it may be and the choices are rapidly running out.
Clean it, if it's Dirty. Oil it, if it Squeaks.
But: Don't fix it, if it Works!
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Re: Need help.. dart still wont start
[Re: MoparforLife]
#208052
02/02/09 12:34 PM
02/02/09 12:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,863 middle Tennessee
mopower440
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ok, i have a question on the coil ohm readings, they say the terminal to terminal should be 0.75-0.81 ohms, mine is reading 1.5. The reading from the tower to either terminal should be 10,000-11,000 ohms, im getting 8500, could this be off enough to cause it to not start?
Last edited by mopower440; 02/02/09 12:34 PM.
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Re: Need help.. dart still wont start
[Re: RapidRobert]
#208053
02/02/09 01:28 PM
02/02/09 01:28 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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Try this Quote:
they will not fire if they are wet. spray the plugs with starting fluid to clean/dry them, blow them off to dry them & put them in after they dry & shoot some starting fluid in the carb primaries while holding the throttle open. A good 2 second blast. Pump the gas SPARINGLY as in no more than 1 or 2 pumps max & dont pump it at all until it's cranked for a bit. Shoot more starting fluid if needed. We are wanting to get this to fire on starting fluid rather than on gas which is easily flooding it.
You did say you had a nice bluish/purple spark? Your readings are OK.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Need help.. dart still wont start
[Re: mopower440]
#208054
02/02/09 05:27 PM
02/02/09 05:27 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,884 Michigan
MNobody
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Quote:
well, i took the distributor out of the block and spun it and it is making spark, i even tried the other 2 ecu's that are supposedly bad and they made the same spark, It is a bluish purple spark, i just pulled a plug wire off and stuck another plug in it while i spun the distributor, i also pulled the coil wire out of the coil a little bit and spun the distributor and it made bunches of spark. with the ballast plugged up im only getting 5.5 volts to the coil and with the ballast bypassed im getting 8.5 volts to the coil..still wont run after all this messing, i did ohm the pickup coil and its 276 and it changes if i spin the distributor shaft but ends up back at 276, saw on the tech archives that it should be between 375-425, but i thought these either worked or didnt work at all, meaning no spark produced? what the heck do i do now?
Sounds like it's not getting enough voltage to the coil to me, shouldn't it be around 12 volts starting and 9 volts running when using a ballast?
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Re: Need help.. dart still wont start
[Re: mopower440]
#208057
02/02/09 09:48 PM
02/02/09 09:48 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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I think it's possibly a MP(only) piece as some one on here had one for sale the other day & it was in the familiar clear cellophane with MP lettering/logos on it. Most backfires I have heard sound almost like a shotgun & just as loud. The 1st item I check is the muffler.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Need help.. dart still wont start
[Re: mopower440]
#208060
02/03/09 09:08 PM
02/03/09 09:08 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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with the dist on its side supported on either side of the plastic at the right height(with each of the 2 end supports at different heights if neccessary) to keep the dist level, drive the roll pin out with a roll pin punch. The round ball edge on those punches makes a world of difference in getting roll pins out of there.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Need help.. dart still wont start
[Re: MNobody]
#208062
02/04/09 02:04 AM
02/04/09 02:04 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,238 Nevada
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