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Re: Rear main seal - Knurled vs smooth sealing area [Re: B5496RR] #2067734
05/05/16 01:41 PM
05/05/16 01:41 PM
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Las Vegas
Al_Alguire Offline
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I agree with Monte. Almost every time we have seen a rear main leak on a mopar the retainer was the offending piece.


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: Rear main seal - Knurled vs smooth sealing area [Re: B5496RR] #2067750
05/05/16 02:15 PM
05/05/16 02:15 PM
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Columbia, CT
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moper Offline
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x3 with Monte. Rarely have I had a lip seal fail (once out of probably 50 over the years?) , never had a rope seal fail.


Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
Re: Rear main seal - Knurled vs smooth sealing area [Re: B5496RR] #2067755
05/05/16 02:27 PM
05/05/16 02:27 PM
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Posts: 6,257
gulfport, ms, west mi
rowin4 Offline
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If the block was line bored that is probably where the problem is. The seal retainer isn't putting enough pressure on the seal. How much to remove from the retainer to get the proper fit? Trial and error or pull the crank and measure. How loose is the timing chain?


it's ok to butt heads, just don't do it with a butthead
Re: Rear main seal - Knurled vs smooth sealing area [Re: B5496RR] #2067763
05/05/16 02:41 PM
05/05/16 02:41 PM
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North Alabama
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Monte_Smith Offline
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If line honing the block, indeed has the crank too low in the registers, as some seem to be surmising, how is cutting the seal retainer going to do anything? Line honing has ZERO effect on the seal groove. If this was the problem, the seal groove would need to be cut deeper. Cutting the retainer on a line honed block, only results in the retainer "egg" shaping the seal, because the bottom seal register groove has NOT moved and neither has the retainer sealing platform. Lip seals are forgiving for a reason. They will conform to slight offsets of the shaft, hence the name "lip" seal. But if you squeeze it tight with a retainer and egg shape it, or put it to one side with retainer, it WILL leak. Some need to think more about what is actually happening here...........Line honing is only to get the bores round and remove taper. VERY little material is ever removed from the block, at least not by anyone who knows what they are doing. Loose timing chain? If you actually removed .002 from the block registers, that would be a LOT. How loose is .002 going to make a chain? Answer, none

Re: Rear main seal - Knurled vs smooth sealing area [Re: B5496RR] #2067784
05/05/16 03:22 PM
05/05/16 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted By B5496RR
@Runner, Do you remember if the seal you are using came into direct contact with the Knurling on the crank or does it rest on a smooth portion of the crank?

@JohnRR, I'm using an Eagle 4.15 stroke crank. I have heard others state that the knurling finish was to rough/coarse. I'm unsure if mine is to coarse or not. I really dont want to remove the crankshaft, so I'm thinking of resealing it again but unsure if I will try the Superformance lip seal or the Graphtite rope seal.



If the surface is too course nothing is going last very long , it'll just keep chewing up whatever you put in it .


running up my post count some more .
Re: Rear main seal - Knurled vs smooth sealing area [Re: dvw] #2067792
05/05/16 03:31 PM
05/05/16 03:31 PM
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Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
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Balt. Md
Originally Posted By dvw
When you say you checked retainer alignment how was it done? Hold it up against the crank by pressing in the middle of the retainer. Measure the gaps on the side to block. If they are way off you may need to use RTV instead of the side seals. Now bolt it in. Remeasure it. Did the dimensions change? If so open up the bolt holes. Also since it has aftermarket caps it had to be line bored/honed. You may need to cut the cap surface as the bore may be to big. I would check this 1st before pulling the crank.
Doug



I believe you posted this elsewhere DVW and it sounded like a good idea to me. I believe you mean the retainer can be off from the center and not let the rear main actually be centered on the crank so you drill the bolt holes larger and do not use the side seals so the retainer will let the seal center on the crank and fill the sides with RTV sealer. I believe thats what you mean. Ron

Re: Rear main seal - Knurled vs smooth sealing area [Re: TRENDZ] #2067793
05/05/16 03:32 PM
05/05/16 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted By TRENDZ
Are you using some form of sealer between the block and retainer mating surface? This is commonly forgotten about. The picture doesn't show any signs that there was sealant in that small area.


that and look at the studs in the rear cap.

OP , what pan are you using ? I have seen where the studs on the rear cap actually keep the pan from completely seating against the block. I have had to machine the studs till they were flush with the top of the nuts to get the pan to fully seat.

If this is the case it will show marks on the pan.

The fact that it leaks when priming is saying your seal is either destroyed or you have a fairly good sized gap back there either between the retainer and the block, or the pan and the block, the only oil really getting to the seal is what goes past the bearing and crank clearance.

Or it's leaking from above , rear cam plug or the galley plugs , gravity is a funny thing ...


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Re: Rear main seal - Knurled vs smooth sealing area [Re: B5496RR] #2067794
05/05/16 03:32 PM
05/05/16 03:32 PM
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North Alabama
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This is apparently a NEW or fairly new motor. It's leaked with various seals and probably same retainer. Rough or not, the knurling won't chew up a seal immediately, if at all. It also leaks while priming it. Highly unlikely the seal type, material or the knurl is the issue.

Re: Rear main seal - Knurled vs smooth sealing area [Re: Monte_Smith] #2067801
05/05/16 03:41 PM
05/05/16 03:41 PM
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Romeo MI
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Romeo MI
Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
This is apparently a NEW or fairly new motor. It's leaked with various seals and probably same retainer. Rough or not, the knurling won't chew up a seal immediately, if at all. It also leaks while priming it. Highly unlikely the seal type, material or the knurl is the issue.


But was this the original retainer that came with
that engine... if it was I would think that it
centered on the crank... I hated changing retainers
due to this issue... from what he has said its got
serious issues.. the only 2 things that I see being
different is the crank and line bore.. as far as I
know they cut about .002 into the block for the bore
then match the caps.. nothing is done to the retainer
wave

Re: Rear main seal - Knurled vs smooth sealing area [Re: B5496RR] #2067807
05/05/16 03:59 PM
05/05/16 03:59 PM
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North Alabama
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Monte_Smith Offline
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I have installed a bunch of main caps over the years when I worked in a machine shop, as well as line honing blocks. The caps come small, so first you line bore it, to get the size right and then hone it to round and straight. VERY little is taken from the block, if you do it right. That's why you cut the CAP on a line hone job. The retainer should never be cut, unless it sits on there crooked

Who knows if this is original retainer and who knows how it fits. Maybe it was cut. This is all stuff WE don't know.

Everyone is focused on the crank, the line hone, seal material, whatever. How about the OP sees if the retainer fits properly FIRST. Nothing else will matter if it doesn't fit.

Re: Rear main seal - Knurled vs smooth sealing area [Re: JohnRR] #2068027
05/05/16 11:08 PM
05/05/16 11:08 PM
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Milwaukee WI
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TRENDZ Offline
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Milwaukee WI
Originally Posted By JohnRR
Originally Posted By TRENDZ
Are you using some form of sealer between the block and retainer mating surface? This is commonly forgotten about. The picture doesn't show any signs that there was sealant in that small area.


that and look at the studs in the rear cap.

OP , what pan are you using ? I have seen where the studs on the rear cap actually keep the pan from completely seating against the block. I have had to machine the studs till they were flush with the top of the nuts to get the pan to fully seat.

If this is the case it will show marks on the pan.

The fact that it leaks when priming is saying your seal is either destroyed or you have a fairly good sized gap back there either between the retainer and the block, or the pan and the block, the only oil really getting to the seal is what goes past the bearing and crank clearance.

Or it's leaking from above , rear cam plug or the galley plugs , gravity is a funny thing ...


This.

With the trans out, you should be able to see if it comes from above. If not that, make sure the retainer isn't sitting on top of the cap, or that the studs are holding the pan from sitting flush as said above.
The retainer thread bosses for the oil pan are in an area that could be hitting your cap.
In the case you have here, I don't think any suggestions are out of the question. Good luck!


"use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"
Re: Rear main seal - Knurled vs smooth sealing area [Re: B5496RR] #2068091
05/06/16 01:23 AM
05/06/16 01:23 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,257
gulfport, ms, west mi
rowin4 Offline
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gulfport, ms, west mi
Check and see if you put the main seal in the block one way and in the retainer the backwards. Never know.


it's ok to butt heads, just don't do it with a butthead
Re: Rear main seal - Knurled vs smooth sealing area [Re: B5496RR] #2068170
05/06/16 10:41 AM
05/06/16 10:41 AM
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Posts: 206
indy
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eds dart Offline
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indy
when using a stud kit, i have always found the 12 point nuts to come in contact with the seal retainer. i machine a small clearance cut for both nuts. even the last billet seal retainer i installed on a buddy,s eng needed to be clearanced. also the windage tray will contact the studs possibly causing leaks.

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