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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap
[Re: mickm]
#2035732
03/21/16 02:09 PM
03/21/16 02:09 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,214
Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,214
Someplace you aren't
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I already told you to donate the money robert. The facts have been posted many times over, none of which support what you are saying or that you seem to see. Maybe your screen is broken?
Dont welch and stiff a charity. A pic of the receipt will suffice.
I want my fair share
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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap
[Re: SomeCarGuy]
#2035736
03/21/16 02:13 PM
03/21/16 02:13 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,214
Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,214
Someplace you aren't
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Guys this is the moneyshot right from that article. It clearly states the rotor will move in relation to the terminal. It wont be any more clear than this. The idea is to get the phsecjust right so it will still work with the advance and not jump. That is the rest of the article.
You can have an adjustable rotor or a different reluctor to move the phasing to where it needs to be. Clocking might be another term that explains better for some.
How it Works
With most typical mechanical advance distributors, the weights and springs are located on a plate that also mounts the rotor. As rpm increases, centrifugal force pulls the weights against spring tension and moves the plate, which advances the rotor in relation to the spark plug wire terminals in the distributor cap. The plate that mounts the rotor is connected to the distributor shaft that also spins what is sometimes called a paddle wheel, or reluctor, with 8 lugs on it (for a V8 engine). When each lug passes by the magnetic pickup, it generates a signal that triggers the module to initiate a spark from the coil through the rotor, across the gap to the distributor cap post and on its way to the spark plug. . In a standard non-EFI application, the reluctor tabs pass the pickup at exactly the same time that the tip of the rotor lines up with the intended terminal inside the distributor cap. These two are in a fixed relationship with each other. Mechanical advance moves not only the position of the reluctor in relation to the pickup but also the rotor in relation to the distributor cap spark plug wire terminal.
Vacuum advance works in a similar fashion. When engine vacuum is applied to the canister, it pulls on the plate that mounts the pickup. By moving the plate in the opposite direction of the rotating shaft, this also advances the timing.
All of this motion affects the position of the rotor in relation to the spark plug wire terminal on the inside of the distributor cap at the moment that the signal is sent to the CD ignition box to “fire” the coil. Stock distributors align the rotor with the spark plug terminal on the distributor cap with the engine at the initial timing position, and since the reluctor and rotor are fixed together, mechanical advance does not cause phasing issues because as the trigger is advanced, so is the rotor. But performance engines with EFI or power adders that require retarded ignition timing combined with high output spark demands place undue load on the ignition system and place a premium on rotor phasing. Let’s take a look at a typical situation. There it is again robert. If you take issue contact jeff smith and tell him he's the idiot. I know he's a chevy guy, but he has this right. Im sure your novel approach will revolutionize the entire industry that has missed this since cars developed enough to include advanced timing as rpm increased. Please report back what he says. Please.
I want my fair share
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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap
[Re: mickm]
#2035830
03/21/16 04:45 PM
03/21/16 04:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540
Milwaukee WI
TRENDZ
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540
Milwaukee WI
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O.K. I did the test. I have to figure out why the transfer to youtube is such low quality. The raw video is excellent. This is one for now. I will try to get the video quality up. www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu55m3QV8ag
"use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"
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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap
[Re: TRENDZ]
#2035884
03/21/16 06:10 PM
03/21/16 06:10 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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O.K. I did the test. I have to figure out why the transfer to youtube is such low quality. The raw video is excellent. This is one for now. I will try to get the video quality up. www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu55m3QV8ag That one shows the rotor moving.. about half the terminal.... good enough for me EDIT What RPM did you start at.. both of those springs are weak ones... thats why I told you to start at low rpm... if I recall that had full mech advanc when the engine was idling.. about 900 rpm(crank) so you need to start less than 400 rpm 
Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 03/21/16 06:39 PM.
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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap
[Re: SomeCarGuy]
#2035897
03/21/16 06:42 PM
03/21/16 06:42 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
Sport440
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
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[quote=
Also most importantly- the damn rotor moves during operation. I suppose you all think it is just some loose parts msd cobbled together and that accounts for the movement.
I'll ask again; just why is the rotor moving? Think about it and comment back. Who said the Rotor doesn't move. Absolutely the Rotor Moves.  {The argument is the Phase doesn't change with Mechanical advance. Even Though it Moves} The Phase WILL change under Vacuum advancement. Mike P, That is what you saw in Trendz vid. It Wasn't the Mechanical advance Phase Change. Are We now going to change the original argument, so that some can say, I see the rotor change phase. It is Indeed a Brain Teaser. Here is what turned My light on. Set the Rotor 10* before Fire/phase alignment. Keep ANY vacuum advance out of this. Now Two things can Rotate that rotor 10* more to Fire it. The engine turning it, OR the Mechanical Advance Turning it the Rotor , yes Turning the Rotor, It moves. It gets there Either way, and Fires Exactly in phase alignement Either way. And YES the ROTOR MOVES, either way, But Fires in phase Both ways. That's why you Don't see it move in Trendz vid, UNTIL he enables the Vacuum advance. Because that Rotates the Pickup plate. THe ROTOR does move, in case anybody didn't pick up on that. But when it does under Mechanical advance, it just gets to the Terminal Sooner You wont see that Sweeping Action like you expected you would see as in the Famous First Vid. NOT, with Mechanical advance. Even Though The Rotor Did indeed move. MOVE, MOVE, MOVE 
Last edited by Sport440; 03/21/16 07:32 PM.
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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap
[Re: Sport440]
#2035908
03/21/16 07:05 PM
03/21/16 07:05 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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All I have said from the get go is the rotor MOVES with MECH ADVANCE.. RR said NO it wont move with mech advance
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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap
[Re: mickm]
#2035927
03/21/16 07:45 PM
03/21/16 07:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540
Milwaukee WI
TRENDZ
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,540
Milwaukee WI
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Mike, I put one heavier spring in the mech weights. The strobe was to hard to read at such low frequency.
The test start at 375 dist rpm. If you look closely at the better videos, you can see the distributor machine arrow strobe start at "0" and top out at 14 degrees.
The video without the vacuum advance being addressed shows no rotor movement, and also shows how the shaft out of the distributor retards 14 degrees.
The video with vacuum advance shows no rotor movement with 14 degrees of mechanical advance, then adds in another 14 degrees of vacuum advance. This is where the rotor position moves. You can see the strobe arrows move to 28 when the vacuum comes in, but no movement from 0 to 14 with mechanical only.
"use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"
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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap
[Re: Sport440]
#2035954
03/21/16 08:19 PM
03/21/16 08:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
Sport440
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
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Also, I would like to thank RR, Rapid Robert, for bringing this educational brain teaser for all of us. Sorry for referring to you as Rabid Robert, Crazy Robert.  In my earlier First or second post, I was kidding though, friendly humor. Its funny, though, when I finally understood it. I was responding to Trendz a rebuttal, to my side of the argument, that he was wrong, and then when as I was typing I realized that it was I that was wrong based on my rebuttal info. Thats when I jumped from the winning side, to the educated side. 
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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap
[Re: TRENDZ]
#2036006
03/21/16 09:22 PM
03/21/16 09:22 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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O.K. I did the test. I have to figure out why the transfer to youtube is such low quality. The raw video is excellent. This is one for now. I will try to get the video quality up. www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu55m3QV8ag Excellent video! I did the same test on the car with my 1/2" window by terminal #1 and used my mighty vac hooked to the vacuum advance pot. Got the exact same results. 
Fastest 300
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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap
[Re: Sport440]
#2036024
03/21/16 09:46 PM
03/21/16 09:46 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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Sport440, no sweat bro & actually I was beginning to feel a bit Rabid! tho not "nearly" as rabid as Somecarguy appears to have become. Somecarguy where are ME and YOU at on this? its down to ME and YOU. My PP address is: rapidrobert at intergate dot com. I had seen it (no RP movement with mech adv only) many times but did not know the why of it till I held a dist in my hand & did my earlier procedure. I agree it makes NO sense how the mech adv could be advanceing the reluctor so it will fire earlier but yet the rotor position in relation to the cap terminal (rotor phasing) when it does fire stays the same/does not move and any body that claims that it doesn't move for sure has to be a bit Rabid. with the dist in front of me I saw it (how it does it) & to me it's a bit like the lady being sawed in half on stage, you know it ain't happenening but it appears so. If you do the dist check in front of you (3 minutes) you will see it & it awed me. Trendz grasped it without even doing it which I was not able to do. RR
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap
[Re: 383man]
#2036041
03/21/16 10:08 PM
03/21/16 10:08 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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All that happens is the rotor and reluctor still line up but they are lining up sooner. The mech advance is moving the top of the dist shaft as per say but it moves the reluctor and rotor together and they will still line up with the pick-up coil when the rotor and cap terminal line up. Ron EXACTLY
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: engine missing carbon scoring inside distributor cap
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#2036067
03/21/16 10:39 PM
03/21/16 10:39 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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We're good brother. A man of his word is always top notch. If I can post my pic I will on how Rabid this was making me!
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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