Re: Terrible Weld "Repair" on 73 Dart, What to do?
[Re: lawndart]
#2024257
03/04/16 02:36 AM
03/04/16 02:36 AM
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Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 16 SF Bay Area
lawndart
OP
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OP
member
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 16
SF Bay Area
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Oh crap, I started a welder fight! lol. I too took a community college welding course about 10yrs ago, heh. no comment about the engineering trade
No way in hell I'd have this stick welded, nor would I try to MIG it myself. I'm definitely gonna have it done by someone who welds for a living, preferably on cars often. MIG should be less likely to blow through than TIG I'd think and the vertical welds shouldn't be an issue for an experienced welder.
I'm pretty positive it's not a factory weld judging by the appearance of the driver's side forward UCA mount which doesn't have rust from a clearly ground area for the weld-prep nor does it have welds that look like poo.
No idea why it was re-welded, but I don't see any signs of crash damage on the subframe or k-member.
Whether or not it's really an issue, I'm not sure, but the appearance definitely makes me nervous, certainly doesn't look like sound welding. Seems like there's some disagreement about just how stressed that mounting point is.
I'm gonna look into having it checked out on a frame machine, but at the 60-100$ an hour that'll probably be that route may be a no-go.
If I can just use the slotted holes and some tightly fit rod to align things than this may be no big deal to jig once cut. The hacking the mounts off and re-welding to achieve additional caster idea is interesting but I don't want to open a can-o-worms attempting it, at least not yet.
Last edited by lawndart; 03/04/16 05:07 AM.
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Re: Terrible Weld "Repair" on 73 Dart, What to do?
[Re: Grizzly]
#2024268
03/04/16 03:01 AM
03/04/16 03:01 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 23,299 Here
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 23,299
Here
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Another welding genius. Calling a high stress mount point for front suspension, "sheet metal" really questions your welding/steel/fabricating knowledge as well. 26 years welding experience; some of the advice you Clowns give is nothing but a joke. Someone has to say something. I apologize to the OP, if I lived beside you I'd just come over there and do it for you free of charge so you don't have to deal with bad advice. 1. Anybody who really knows how to weld, doesn't need to compare the amount years one has been welding to make their case. And be careful if you must, if you have only been welding 26 years. 2. Calling others names, with no back up, I know is the big thing nowadays, but I try to keep better company. 3. Someone only has to say something IMO, when they have something to actually say. 4. Please enlighten us "clowns" as to what is NOT "sheet metal" in the OP's pictured area of concern. If your definition of "sheet metal" is defined maybe as only having low stress, good for you. 5. I can't fathom how anyone could deduce my welding skills or experience from my use of the term "sheet metal".
" All sorts of things can happen when you are open to new Ideas" Inventor of Kevlar
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Re: Terrible Weld "Repair" on 73 Dart, What to do?
[Re: lawndart]
#2024289
03/04/16 04:04 AM
03/04/16 04:04 AM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 53 Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
JRC
member
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member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 53
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Lawndart, I apologize for the how off track the welding comments have gotten here...my post count shows I dont post much here, but have been around for some time. I only comment when I feel 100% sure of my responses. I dont build high tech race engines for top fuel or what have you. But what I am is a highly skilled welder and have been for many decades...to codes much higher than gravel trailers and trucks (but I did that when I was first starting out in the trade).
All bull$hit aside, the old saying is you use the correct tool for the job. Each welding process has its place for a reason but I assure you if you ask any real professional at any welding shop or race car shop they will concur that this is no place for SMAW...whether 6010 or a 7018 rod!
The pissing matches aside, I will say from the half dozen A-Bodys I have owned that this doesn't look like the factory welds from my experiences. But thats just my experiences, and not to discredit Jim Lusk and the vast history he has had with them either. The fact is back in the day these cars were built they were indeed done with varying welding processes, and SMAW was used on them, and by a human who very well could have been having a off day.
Absolutely make sure you can run a straight rod thru the UCA mounts when done to avoid binding within the joints.
Also, any real professional welder should be able to weld that up with any process without issue...whether SMAW, GMAW or GTAW. They metal becomes molten at the same temperature regardless of the process. The benefits are a reduced heat affected zone with certain processes. Thats a bigger key when you get into the metallurgy of things. Again...the correct tool for the job! Exactly why no professionals build car chassis, cages, suspensions, etc with SMAW. Its not that it cannot be done...it goes much deeper than that, the welds will rarely fail...but the affected area around a weld that fails, aka the heat affected zone.
One last rant...Grizzly, its absolutely sheetmetal! These are not gravel trailers or truck chassis here, its a light gauge material no more than prolly 10Ga, not plate like the stuff found on what your working with. Huge differene...and no professional welder is welding "Gauge" material with 6010. EVER!
In closing, Lawndart...either GMAW or GTAW will both work 100% without question and meet any and all your needs for this repair without worries!
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Re: Terrible Weld "Repair" on 73 Dart, What to do?
[Re: JRC]
#2024294
03/04/16 04:28 AM
03/04/16 04:28 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 18,688 Fresno, CA
Jim_Lusk
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 18,688
Fresno, CA
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The pissing matches aside, I will say from the half dozen A-Bodys I have owned that this doesn't look like the factory welds from my experiences. But thats just my experiences, and not to discredit Jim Lusk and the vast history he has had with them either. The fact is back in the day these cars were built they were indeed done with varying welding processes, and SMAW was used on them, and by a human who very well could have been having a off day.
I'm not saying it was definitely a factory weld, but after the last k-member I picked up (which looks worse than this) anything is possible from the factory. The sloppiness that I have seen over the years is shocking.
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Re: Terrible Weld "Repair" on 73 Dart, What to do?
[Re: lawndart]
#2024351
03/04/16 10:58 AM
03/04/16 10:58 AM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889 up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
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I was joking about the "factory weld" comment, primarily based on some of the real crap I've seen done by the factory though.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: Terrible Weld "Repair" on 73 Dart, What to do?
[Re: Grizzly]
#2024632
03/04/16 07:41 PM
03/04/16 07:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,096 Irving, TX
feets
Senior Management
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Senior Management
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,096
Irving, TX
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Another welding genius. Calling a high stress mount point for front suspension, "sheet metal" really questions your welding/steel/fabricating knowledge as well. 26 years welding experience; some of the advice you Clowns give is nothing but a joke. Someone has to say something. That's not exactly a high stress part. We had that discussion previously. It drives me nuts that very few of these kits gusset their upper control arms. Have you measured the forces in the upper control arm? In most situations it's essentially along for the ride. The LCA controls the majority of the fore/aft movement, takes the cornering loads, and handles the spring. The upper arm keeps the wheel from falling over. Exactly. I have seen suspension loads aquired with wheel force transducers and strain and accel data on the frame at various points. Feets hit the nail on the head. To borrow your words: some of the advice you Clowns give is nothing but a joke. Someone has to say something.
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon
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Re: Terrible Weld "Repair" on 73 Dart, What to do?
[Re: feets]
#2024705
03/04/16 10:35 PM
03/04/16 10:35 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 23,299 Here
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 23,299
Here
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Another welding genius. Calling a high stress mount point for front suspension, "sheet metal" really questions your welding/steel/fabricating knowledge as well. 26 years welding experience; some of the advice you Clowns give is nothing but a joke. Someone has to say something. That's not exactly a high stress part. We had that discussion previously. It drives me nuts that very few of these kits gusset their upper control arms. Have you measured the forces in the upper control arm? In most situations it's essentially along for the ride. The LCA controls the majority of the fore/aft movement, takes the cornering loads, and handles the spring. The upper arm keeps the wheel from falling over. Exactly. I have seen suspension loads aquired with wheel force transducers and strain and accel data on the frame at various points. Feets hit the nail on the head. To borrow your words: some of the advice you Clowns give is nothing but a joke. Someone has to say something. Does someone include everyone? I am not sure "having a discussion" automatically means a conclusion was made or proven. I can't make much out of "wheel force transducers....." to draw any conclusion or how it was measured under what conditions, etc, on that comment alone. And don't be so shy, name names, since your descriptor was plural, most of us are grown ups here.
" All sorts of things can happen when you are open to new Ideas" Inventor of Kevlar
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