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Re: wheel horsepower vs. ET [Re: 383man] #2010418
02/12/16 12:23 PM
02/12/16 12:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,495
Shelby mi.
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JAKE68 Offline
pro stock
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Shelby mi.
Originally Posted By 383man
Are they allowed to change the shape of the runners in Stock eleiminater but still have to keep them the stock CC's ? In other words can they reshape the runners as long as the CC's come out to stock ? Ron

NO. You can in super stock.

Last edited by JAKE68; 02/12/16 12:24 PM.

JAKES AUTOMOTIVE
Re: wheel horsepower vs. ET [Re: mcat4321] #2010426
02/12/16 12:44 PM
02/12/16 12:44 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,846
MI, usa
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As we all know "porting" is illegal in stock,lol.

Doug

Re: wheel horsepower vs. ET [Re: mcat4321] #2010451
02/12/16 01:57 PM
02/12/16 01:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 176
Sterling Heights, MI
John_T_Brown Offline
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Wheel horsepower has no bearing on the E.T. of a car, the E.T. is generated by traction (tire, suspension and weight distribution), gearing (transmission and final gear ratio of the rear end), and torque converter that is all matched to the torque characteristics of the engine (if it's an automatic). Take all of these variables and the weight of the car plus the current weather and you will determine the speed of the car at the end of that quarter mile run.

E.T. will vary dramatically from car to car with the variables stated above along with the state of tune in the chassis and drive train.

In other words, if the same engine was taken out of that car and put into another one that weighs the same, the M.P.H. will be pretty much the same but the E.T. will be different.

Discuss


If it ain't broke fix it anyway!
Re: wheel horsepower vs. ET [Re: mcat4321] #2010457
02/12/16 02:15 PM
02/12/16 02:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,504
So. Burlington, Vt.
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There's a member here who has a friend with an 80 Mirada that runs in stock.
360 4bbl combo. They bought it as a used stocker and built a new motor for it.
A nice basic build, no voodoo, just proper machining and attention to detail. A good cheater cam, decent converter, etc......... Ran well into the 11's right off the bat, about .500 under the index. This is an 8.5:1 360 with 1.88 valve heads.

The thing pretty much all stockers have in common is(with the exception of Hemi/MW cars, bb Chevy rect port head motors, 4bbl Cleveland fords, etc) is they have small heads and dual plane manifolds.
Sure, that stuff is only going to get you so much performance, but it usually has way more potential than what most people think it does.

As an interesting side note.........bracket guys look at stockers and just assume it's all cheating and voodoo, stocker guys look at bracket cars and wonder why those cars don't go faster with aftermarket heads, big cams, manifolds, carbs, etc.

It's all perspective.

Re: wheel horsepower vs. ET [Re: fast68plymouth] #2010466
02/12/16 02:25 PM
02/12/16 02:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,504
So. Burlington, Vt.
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Originally Posted By fast68plymouth
Here's a couple of examples to show how the efficiency of the car is a big player.
From what should be better, to not as good......

1- 1.28 60', 9.07 @ 145, 3660lbs

2- 1.41 60', 10.04 @131, 3470lbs

3- 1.51 60', 10.89 @ 123, 4200lbs


I was hoping rb446 would give me his HP estimates for these 3 so I could illustrate a point....


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: wheel horsepower vs. ET [Re: mcat4321] #2010473
02/12/16 02:43 PM
02/12/16 02:43 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 570
UK
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ok will do now..........

1.> 908hp
60 Foot E.T. : 1.29
1/8 Mile E.T. : 5.85
1/8 Mile Trap Speed : 116.21
1/4 Mile E.T. : 9.27
1/4 Mile Trap Speed : 145

2.> 634hp
60 Foot E.T. : 1.43
1/8 Mile E.T. : 6.48
1/8 Mile Trap Speed : 104.94
1/4 Mile E.T. : 10.26
1/4 Mile Trap Speed : 131

3.> 634hp
60 Foot E.T. : 1.52
1/8 Mile E.T. : 6.90
1/8 Mile Trap Speed : 98.52
1/4 Mile E.T. : 10.93
1/4 Mile Trap Speed : 123

This is 1 of the few legal A/SA cars we have here in the UK....good example> watch vid from 7.53>8.08, runs a Tilberg 396 motor I believe....has since gone 9.97

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy9tit8mAIQ

I only managed a 10.71 at that mph and 60'd at 1.46 bit better than wallace quoted 1.49....but nowhere near as good as a stocker.

Last edited by rb446; 02/12/16 03:20 PM.

1969 'Cuda 446ci, best 9.96@133.9 in 1990
1971 340 'Cuda, best 11.01@122.8 in 1987
Re: wheel horsepower vs. ET [Re: mcat4321] #2010499
02/12/16 03:25 PM
02/12/16 03:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,368
Las Vegas
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FWIW and for those who do not know you CAN run Edelbrock Heads in Stock and SS these days. They have been since I think 2011 or so. Even a board member here running a set on his E/SA SB Dart. The heads just need to match the specs for the year claimed(although not completely identical, just a weird deal IMO)Just like roller rockers have been allowed in stock for quite some time.

Stock eliminator is getting farther and farther from the stock you all once knew. But they have to do something as parts become more scarce. Hard to find a good set of 906's for instance that are good enough to put the 3500-4000 into to make them competitive for stock.

FWIW Jimmy Alund went 9.96 yesterday in A/S with for what this time of year is usually ugly air for Pomona 3181' DA. Even more impressive to me is what Chuck Rayborn went 9.604 in his 64 Hemi Belvedere...

Last edited by Al_Alguire; 02/12/16 03:31 PM.

"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: wheel horsepower vs. ET [Re: mcat4321] #2010501
02/12/16 03:34 PM
02/12/16 03:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,368
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire Offline
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As for the RWHP-v-Dyno hp deal give this one a shot. 2975lbs 7.94 at 170.11 Then try 3310lbs 8.21 167.6(fwiw this was at Vegas) interested to see what you come up with.

FWIW MPH is the ONLY Indication of power. ET is dependent on MANY factors. Altitude, track prep, how well the car works etc etc etc


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: wheel horsepower vs. ET [Re: John_T_Brown] #2010511
02/12/16 03:56 PM
02/12/16 03:56 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,206
Bend,OR USA
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Originally Posted By John_T_Brown
Wheel horsepower has no bearing on the E.T. of a car, the E.T. is generated by traction (tire, suspension and weight distribution), gearing (transmission and final gear ratio of the rear end), and torque converter that is all matched to the torque characteristics of the engine (if it's an automatic). Take all of these variables and the weight of the car plus the current weather and you will determine the speed of the car at the end of that quarter mile run.

E.T. will vary dramatically from car to car with the variables stated above along with the state of tune in the chassis and drive train.

In other words, if the same engine was taken out of that car and put into another one that weighs the same, the M.P.H. will be pretty much the same but the E.T. will be different.

Discuss

I've been down the stocker route multiple times and the converter can make or break a combination, it is not all the motor tskThe first 8 inch art Car race converte we put behind the hemi stocker we where racing back then slowed that car down.35 ET and over 3 MPH compared to the stock Mopar 11 inch street hemi converter shock puke I know another NHRA world champion that change five converters in testing one weekend at a division race to pick up .03 and .2 MPH work
It is the total combination of parts and driver, it is a lot of hard work and parts swapping and testing to make them achieve what they do up


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: wheel horsepower vs. ET [Re: mcat4321] #2010518
02/12/16 04:06 PM
02/12/16 04:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,504
So. Burlington, Vt.
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Combo 1- corrected flywheel hp - 911
(My memory is a little foggy, but i think this car may have actually gone 147mph)
Moroso hp for 3660/147 = 890

Combo 2- corrected flywheel hp - 652
Moroso hp for 3470/131 = 610

Combo 3- corrected flywheel hp - 705
Moroso hp for 4200/123 = 600

All built by me, all dynoed by me on the same dyno.
IMO, the dyno is a much more reliable way of determining engine output, as you can see from these examples, and my friends stocker, that some cars just make better use of the avalable power than others.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: wheel horsepower vs. ET [Re: Al_Alguire] #2010531
02/12/16 04:23 PM
02/12/16 04:23 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 570
UK
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mopar
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UK
1191hp/2975
60 Foot E.T. : 1.10
1/8 Mile E.T. : 4.99
1/8 Mile Trap Speed : 136.30
1/4 Mile E.T. : 7.90
1/4 Mile Trap Speed : 170

1256HP/3310
60 Foot E.T. : 1.12
1/8 Mile E.T. : 5.08
1/8 Mile Trap Speed : 133.89
1/4 Mile E.T. : 8.05
1/4 Mile Trap Speed : 167

1280hp/3310
60 Foot E.T. : 1.11
1/8 Mile E.T. : 5.04
1/8 Mile Trap Speed : 134.74
1/4 Mile E.T. : 8.00
1/4 Mile Trap Speed : 168
24hp spread for that 1 mph temp go down?

Last edited by rb446; 02/12/16 04:30 PM.

1969 'Cuda 446ci, best 9.96@133.9 in 1990
1971 340 'Cuda, best 11.01@122.8 in 1987
Re: wheel horsepower vs. ET [Re: fast68plymouth] #2010543
02/12/16 04:39 PM
02/12/16 04:39 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 570
UK
rb446 Offline
mopar
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UK
Originally Posted By fast68plymouth
Combo 1- corrected flywheel hp - 911
(My memory is a little foggy, but i think this car may have actually gone 147mph)
Moroso hp for 3660/147 = 890

Combo 2- corrected flywheel hp - 652
Moroso hp for 3470/131 = 610

Combo 3- corrected flywheel hp - 705
Moroso hp for 4200/123 = 600

All built by me, all dynoed by me on the same dyno.
IMO, the dyno is a much more reliable way of determining engine output, as you can see from these examples, and my friends stocker, that some cars just make better use of the avalable power than others.


re-did combo 3
650hp@123 at 4200

Last edited by rb446; 02/12/16 04:52 PM.

1969 'Cuda 446ci, best 9.96@133.9 in 1990
1971 340 'Cuda, best 11.01@122.8 in 1987
Re: wheel horsepower vs. ET [Re: mcat4321] #2010548
02/12/16 04:48 PM
02/12/16 04:48 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,368
Las Vegas
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Not the same day or same car obviously. 60' times are way fast for both as well. Top one was my S/ST car in killer NorCal air, barometer high da -1600. Motor was nowhere near that power level either. Just a little ole 525" B1MC. We never dynode it after its initial build where it made 1050 but it did pick up 3 MPH on a subsequent freshening with new cam, new pistons with more compression and new fuel. We assume it was 1090ish maybe. Best 60' that car ever saw was a 1.18 but your 1/8 mile MPH is close. Have to go find the timeslip but car never ran 4.xx anything ever. IIRC that was a 5.05 or 4 pass. Car was not really set up to run all out. It was under geared and had a tight converter, and was set up to run on the stop. Nest we ever did there was 161

As for the second one that was our other Cuda that we ran NA10.5/Hot Street in. That was a pass in Vegas as pointed out so MPH, and ET will be down from sea level. We only ran the car at Sea Level twice and had a slew of problems with it both times, figure it would have been a good. Anyway best 60' that car ever had was a 1.21. That was the quickest ET the car ever had as well as MPH. Engine made 1314 on the same dyno as the previous piece. We did pull a lot of timing for a fair amount of time to get the car to work off the line. Excess power and a small tire kinda do that. We ended up with what was a very heavy car to get it consistently off the line. FWIW This motor with its new owner I am pretty sure it has been 164 at 3600lbs now at sea level. Just a fresh version of what it was. Just rings bearing rods valves and new block. Otherwise saem parts it had before.

Guess it goes to show not all calculators work for all cars. I can guarantee the first car made nowhere near the power you have. The second a bit more, but the altitude will throw that off, as well as the type of car it was.


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: wheel horsepower vs. ET [Re: Al_Alguire] #2010558
02/12/16 05:17 PM
02/12/16 05:17 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 570
UK
rb446 Offline
mopar
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UK
ok so if I do the 3310 to the ET its 1174hp
60 Foot E.T. : 1.14
1/8 Mile E.T. : 5.18
1/8 Mile Trap Speed : 131.28
1/4 Mile E.T. : 8.21
1/4 Mile Trap Speed : 163

and the 2975 to ET its 1174hp
60 Foot E.T. : 1.10
1/8 Mile E.T. : 5.01
1/8 Mile Trap Speed : 135.65
1/4 Mile E.T. : 7.94
1/4 Mile Trap Speed : 169
Its starting to hurt my head lol

From what I can gather, slower cars work out a bit better, anything that hooks hard like a stocker or similar is gonna be off some.

We have a guy here who runs a 655ci mopar, he posts on here, dyno'd at 1049hp, best mph to date at 3910lbs is 145 = 970hp, some way off but still sorting the tune.

Last edited by rb446; 02/12/16 05:38 PM.

1969 'Cuda 446ci, best 9.96@133.9 in 1990
1971 340 'Cuda, best 11.01@122.8 in 1987
Re: wheel horsepower vs. ET [Re: mcat4321] #2010606
02/12/16 06:16 PM
02/12/16 06:16 PM
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Hot Rod Ridge
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Does it work for 1/8 mile ?

My last pass with a stock block
60' 1.23
330' 3.48
1/8 ET 5.24
1/8 MPH 143.3

2960 pounds, sorry

Last edited by FastmOp; 02/12/16 07:30 PM.
Re: wheel horsepower vs. ET [Re: mcat4321] #2010617
02/12/16 06:26 PM
02/12/16 06:26 PM
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UK
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Not without the weight of the car..........

Never been an 1/8 mile sorta guy, however, if you think about it the first 660 is where its all at, the last part is sorta boring..........


1969 'Cuda 446ci, best 9.96@133.9 in 1990
1971 340 'Cuda, best 11.01@122.8 in 1987
Re: wheel horsepower vs. ET [Re: mcat4321] #2010664
02/12/16 07:28 PM
02/12/16 07:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,504
So. Burlington, Vt.
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From the stuff I've had the chance to dyno, and seeing them put into various cars with differing levels of "race effort" into the overall package, I look at the dyno results and feel if the car is on the "good" end of the spectrum, the numbers will be pretty close to the Moroso scale. For anything that is leaning more towards strip than street, you should be well within a 10% margin. For cars that are really more street oriented and seldom see track time, the numbers can (and often are) way off.
Also, obviously, if you race in an area where the weather conditions aren't conducive to making power(like Denver for example), that needs to be factored into it.

Re: wheel horsepower vs. ET [Re: mcat4321] #2010671
02/12/16 07:31 PM
02/12/16 07:31 PM
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Hot Rod Ridge
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Added wt.

Re: wheel horsepower vs. ET [Re: mcat4321] #2010712
02/12/16 08:54 PM
02/12/16 08:54 PM
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UK
rb446 Offline
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UK
If you calculate your 1/8th ET/2960 = 960fwhp
2960/960hp = 5.24ET@127 8mph
143.3MPH/2960 = 1354hp...??


1969 'Cuda 446ci, best 9.96@133.9 in 1990
1971 340 'Cuda, best 11.01@122.8 in 1987
Re: wheel horsepower vs. ET [Re: mcat4321] #2010763
02/12/16 09:52 PM
02/12/16 09:52 PM
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I lifted about 3 times on that pass lol

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