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Re: Spark plug gap with MSD [Re: The Sphinx] #1996071
01/22/16 01:57 AM
01/22/16 01:57 AM
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Posts: 9,225
Charleston
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sixpackgut Offline
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Charleston
One could simply go on NGK's website and read where they say modified performance engines should run a tighter gap but its alot more fun to keep argueing during the winter months


Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135
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Re: Spark plug gap with MSD [Re: The Sphinx] #1996081
01/22/16 02:17 AM
01/22/16 02:17 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,319
Puyallup, WA
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StealthWedge67 Offline
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Puyallup, WA
Straight from MSD's website:

3. What is the best spark plug gap for my application?
The spark plug is the point in the ignition system where electrical energy is converted into heat, consequently, the
larger the gap the greater the amount of heat available to light the air/fuel mixture. However, too large of gap combined
with increased cylinder pressures can put excessive pressures on the initial voltage needed to ionize (cross)
the gap. Finding the optimum plug gap for your application is best determined by experimentation because there are
so many engine variables to consider.
An MSD Ignition Control has enough output power to consistently fire wider spark plug gaps on a performance
engine. As a starting point, follow the engine builder or manufacturer’s recommendation for the plug gap. With that,
you can experiment with increasing the gap until the best performance is found.
As a rule of thumb, it is recommended to increase the plug gap by .005” - .010” followed by testing and tuning.
Keep in mind that larger spark plug gaps also place increasing demands on the secondary portion of the ignition
system including the distributor cap and rotor, coil wire, and spark plug wires. They should all be in top condition and
checked periodically during the race season. Remember that electricity takes the path of least resistance to a ground
so if the gap is too large the spark may short to another point with less resistance.


LemonWedge - Street heavy / Strip ready - 11.07 @ 120
Re: Spark plug gap with MSD [Re: Monte_Smith] #1996113
01/22/16 03:48 AM
01/22/16 03:48 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 8,048
Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline
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Mt Morris Michigan
heres a vid to watch that shows difference between cd ignition and inductive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks88w-fi8tE

Re: Spark plug gap with MSD [Re: The Sphinx] #1996116
01/22/16 04:01 AM
01/22/16 04:01 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 8,048
Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline
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heres another. interesting stuff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8P3nn3Octs

Re: Spark plug gap with MSD [Re: Monte_Smith] #1996203
01/22/16 12:02 PM
01/22/16 12:02 PM
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Posts: 7,506
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Crizila Offline
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Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
Originally Posted By 70HemiGTX
Today I happened to pick up an old (OLD from the early 90's) magazine. Can't even remember what is was. I think maybe Popular Hotrodding, but not sure. They had a story on different "performance tips". One was spark plug gaps. It said for Supercharged/Nitrous engines like .020 - .022 and high compression engines .022 - .025. They didn't mention MSD or anything like that so I'm figuring they were using old style electronic or points. Remember this was the early 90's.

I can see their point of close gaps. "Quicker" spark and probably a "shorter/fatter" spark.

That's just my take on their theory. Is it right or wrong? ?????
Here is the thing about modern ignition systems. It puts out, what it puts out. You can make spark jump a mile, but it will be no hotter and no more intense. It just is what it is. And as already covered, the MSD is a multi(ple) spark discharge, meaning you get more than a single pulse of spark per event. You get multiple sparks. An MSD is also a CD ignition, meaning capacitive discharge, which produces a VERY high spark voltage, by charging the coil quickly with high power. A digital 7 for example, produces 190 millijoules per spark. CD ignitions, while hot, produce a very short burst and that is why the Multi spark concept was designed. If the arc time is short, just make a lot of them.

Factory cars on the other hand, have "induction" type ignition systems and always have, which means the fire is relative to the saturation time on the coils and is a single spark. That's why old schools coils are so big. More windings, more saturation, more energy. The problem with induction ignition, is dwell time to charge the coil. Whats good at low speed, is not good at high speed, so it's a compromise at best and can't be adjusted. If you remember points days, the number was generally 32* of dwell. That's a compromise, because at low speed 15* would be better and at high speed 60* would be, but we couldn't do that. This is where HEI came in. It is basically a little computer that adjusts dwell time in relation to rpm, but it had a small range of about 15-40*. But ALL inductive systems still suffer from a thing called "roll off". Which means as rpm increases the saturation time on the coil gets too short to be efficient and spark energy gets weak.

Now that ignition basics and how it works are covered......do we want to talk about coils. Because the box is the box and makes the power it makes. It's ONE and ONLY job is to charge the coil. The COIL is what delivers the energy to the dist and or plugs and they come in various styles. Some have very quick peak energy and some have sustained energy. So as with any other part of a car, the TOTAL SYSTEM is what matters, not one individual component. Right box, wrong coil..the system won't work well.
up


Fastest 300
Re: Spark plug gap with MSD [Re: StealthWedge67] #1996223
01/22/16 12:37 PM
01/22/16 12:37 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila Offline
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Crizila  Offline
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Posts: 7,506
Az
Originally Posted By StealthWedge67
Straight from MSD's website:

3. What is the best spark plug gap for my application?
The spark plug is the point in the ignition system where electrical energy is converted into heat, consequently, the
larger the gap the greater the amount of heat available to light the air/fuel mixture. However, too large of gap combined
with increased cylinder pressures can put excessive pressures on the initial voltage needed to ionize (cross)
the gap. Finding the optimum plug gap for your application is best determined by experimentation because there are
so many engine variables to consider.
An MSD Ignition Control has enough output power to consistently fire wider spark plug gaps on a performance
engine. As a starting point, follow the engine builder or manufacturer’s recommendation for the plug gap. With that,
you can experiment with increasing the gap until the best performance is found.
As a rule of thumb, it is recommended to increase the plug gap by .005” - .010” followed by testing and tuning.
Keep in mind that larger spark plug gaps also place increasing demands on the secondary portion of the ignition
system including the distributor cap and rotor, coil wire, and spark plug wires. They should all be in top condition and
checked periodically during the race season. Remember that electricity takes the path of least resistance to a ground
so if the gap is too large the spark may short to another point with less resistance.
----"With that,you can experiment with increasing the gap until the best performance is found." or as I have previously said to the OP at the beginning of this post, you want the largest gap possible while still being able to keep the plugs lit. The biggest problem I see with high output ignition systems today is mixing and matching components. Easy to get away with in the past ( another - not an old wives tale) when your system only put out 19K or there abouts. Short component life ( in particular coils) will often result with todays 55K output stuff. Learned the hard way many years ago ( another - not an old wives tale grin ).


Fastest 300
Re: Spark plug gap with MSD [Re: The Sphinx] #1996254
01/22/16 01:19 PM
01/22/16 01:19 PM

C
crabman173
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crabman173
Unregistered
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Racers whipping butt at the track are NOT running .055 gaps--
Testing with a race car will almost always Prove that no matter what you are running CR, Boost, NOS, whatever--tighter gaps work best even if you have an ARC welder strapped to your distributor cap--"conventional wisom " is usually proven to be BS time after time
READING about gaps odes nothing but keep you out of trouble while your nose is in a book--Racing, Dyno testing, etc with an engine shows you what really happens
I run really fast with .015 gaps on a mag--big compression, alky etc

Go ahead..run that big gap who cares!!!

Re: Spark plug gap with MSD [Re: The Sphinx] #1996346
01/22/16 04:01 PM
01/22/16 04:01 PM
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Milwaukee WI
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TRENDZ Offline
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Milwaukee WI
Devils advocate....Why not run a .001 gap and save the ignition parts?
For the record, I ran waste spark d.i.s. inductive ignition at .020


"use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"
Re: Spark plug gap with MSD [Re: ] #1996386
01/22/16 04:39 PM
01/22/16 04:39 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila Offline
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Crizila  Offline
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Az
Originally Posted By crabman173
Racers whipping butt at the track are NOT running .055 gaps--
Testing with a race car will almost always Prove that no matter what you are running CR, Boost, NOS, whatever--tighter gaps work best even if you have an ARC welder strapped to your distributor cap--"conventional wisom " is usually proven to be BS time after time
READING about gaps odes nothing but keep you out of trouble while your nose is in a book--Racing, Dyno testing, etc with an engine shows you what really happens
I run really fast with .015 gaps on a mag--big compression, alky etc

Go ahead..run that big gap who cares!!!
Comparing Apples and oranges and pretty much wrong ( except for the tack testing part ). If you are running "really fast" now, go for .010". Surprising how so many on here miss the point.


Fastest 300
Re: Spark plug gap with MSD [Re: The Sphinx] #1996393
01/22/16 04:45 PM
01/22/16 04:45 PM
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North Alabama
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Monte_Smith Offline
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North Alabama
The area of contention, at least mine, is the statement to run "as wide as you can". I simply don't agree. That's taxing the system for no reason. If the car runs the same at .025 as it does at .040, there is no reason in taxing the components for zero gain.

Re: Spark plug gap with MSD [Re: The Sphinx] #1996395
01/22/16 04:49 PM
01/22/16 04:49 PM
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Washington
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madscientist Offline
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Washington
The point is THERE IS NO ONE GAP THAT IS CORRECT FOR EVERY APPLICATION. That is the point. You have to TEST. I can tell you that most of us on here who do TEST are saying .040 is too wide for most anything. I have personally never seen a case where anything over .040 went faster or made more HP. Ever. Back in the day, when I was running a mag (which will fire anything and makes most battery fired ignitions look weak) that gap was anywhere from .016-.022 depending on compression, RPM etc. The mag produces a very long duration spark. But it doesn't like jumping a gap. Also, the mag sspark gets hotter as the RPM's go up.

If I was doing a high RPM alky engine again it for sure would have a mag. My Super Mag III was better than an MSD 7 from 3K RPM (bottom of the pull) by a couple of HP to better than 20 at 8500. Kinda funny how the multi part stops at about 2500 isn't it??


FWIW I had to gap the MSD at .030 just to get it above 7000. Probably should have closed it up a bit more but dyno time isn't free and the mag clearly kicked the crap out of the MSD. And the MSD belonged to the dyno owner. It was his "super box" that beat all comers. Til my mag.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: Spark plug gap with MSD [Re: Crizila] #1996399
01/22/16 04:55 PM
01/22/16 04:55 PM
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Posts: 7,506
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Crizila Offline
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As long as we are all flingin a little shat around, I asked the OP what his application was - street, street /strip, race only. Based on what he was working with, I assumed street or street / strip. He said race only. Per MSD, the 6 is the wrong application for race only. They are recommending it for street or street / strip only. Plus the OP wants to add N02 from time to time. His choice of ignitions could be marginal at any plug gap. Ok, I'm sure will get a slew of people that are running that ignition in a race only application - and running "really fast".


Fastest 300
Re: Spark plug gap with MSD [Re: Monte_Smith] #1996404
01/22/16 05:01 PM
01/22/16 05:01 PM
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Crizila Offline
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Crizila  Offline
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Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
The area of contention, at least mine, is the statement to run "as wide as you can". I simply don't agree. That's taxing the system for no reason. If the car runs the same at .025 as it does at .040, there is no reason in taxing the components for zero gain.
Taken out of context, to fit your needs. You left out "as long as you can still light the plugs". At least it looks like you have done some reading up on the subject. Good thing. Maybe next time you won't be quite so quick with your wise azz comments.


Fastest 300
Re: Spark plug gap with MSD [Re: Crizila] #1996407
01/22/16 05:09 PM
01/22/16 05:09 PM
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Washington
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madscientist Offline
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Originally Posted By Crizila
As long as we are all flingin a little shat around, I asked the OP what his application was - street, street /strip, race only. Based on what he was working with, I assumed street or street / strip. He said race only. Per MSD, the 6 is the wrong application for race only. They are recommending it for street or street / strip only. Plus the OP wants to add N02 from time to time. His choice of ignitions could be marginal at any plug gap. Ok, I'm sure will get a slew of people that are running that ignition in a race only application - and running "really fast".


You are correct in that he should be running a better box that a 6. He is definately ignition deficent.


Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
Re: Spark plug gap with MSD [Re: Crizila] #1996414
01/22/16 05:19 PM
01/22/16 05:19 PM
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North Alabama
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Monte_Smith Offline
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North Alabama
Originally Posted By Crizila
Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
The area of contention, at least mine, is the statement to run "as wide as you can". I simply don't agree. That's taxing the system for no reason. If the car runs the same at .025 as it does at .040, there is no reason in taxing the components for zero gain.
Taken out of context, to fit your needs. You left out "as long as you can still light the plugs". At least it looks like you have done some reading up on the subject. Good thing. Maybe next time you won't be quite so quick with your wise azz comments.
I didn't have to do any "reading up" on anything. This is all ignition 101 stuff, nothing difficult here. And I didn't take anything out of context. Look back, your straight answer was, "if you can light them, the wider the better". I see no parameter there, other than it lighting, which is a given

Last edited by Monte_Smith; 01/22/16 05:21 PM.
Re: Spark plug gap with MSD [Re: madscientist] #1996416
01/22/16 05:20 PM
01/22/16 05:20 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 300
Willow Spring
dagohman Offline
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Willow Spring
Mine is set .035 on a 6AL box I've owned since the late 80's. I tried wider, made 0 difference in et.
I'm getting ready to start a "How do you adjust valves thread now"
stirthepot

Re: Spark plug gap with MSD [Re: dagohman] #1996450
01/22/16 06:10 PM
01/22/16 06:10 PM
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Posts: 11,749
Fulton County, PA
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CMcAllister Offline
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Fulton County, PA
Originally Posted By dagohman
Mine is set .035 on a 6AL box I've owned since the late 80's. I tried wider, made 0 difference in et.
I'm getting ready to start a "How do you adjust valves thread now"
stirthepot


Don't forget "Setting pinion angle".

Plug gap on my snow blower is the only thing on my mind right now.


If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
Re: Spark plug gap with MSD [Re: CMcAllister] #1996462
01/22/16 06:22 PM
01/22/16 06:22 PM
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,707
Wichita
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GY3 Offline
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Wichita
I've decided to run the right bank at .015 and the left bank at .050 and see if it makes any difference... scope

Re: Spark plug gap with MSD [Re: The Sphinx] #1996463
01/22/16 06:27 PM
01/22/16 06:27 PM

C
crabman173
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crabman173
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If that snow blower will not start then do like the mower shop does and tighten up dat gap!
I don't care if your coil will jump a ditch--about .035 will run fantastic on anything that has a steering wheel and .055 will not help one bit that 95% of you can Prove! Geeez!!!

Re: Spark plug gap with MSD [Re: ] #1996485
01/22/16 06:53 PM
01/22/16 06:53 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,247
Mt. Vernon, Ohio
dartman366 Offline
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Mt. Vernon, Ohio
Originally Posted By crabman173
If that snow blower will not start then do like the mower shop does and tighten up dat gap!
I don't care if your coil will jump a ditch--about .035 will run fantastic on anything that has a steering wheel and .055 will not help one bit that 95% of you can Prove! Geeez!!!
Ain't that the truth. laugh2 laugh2


Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.
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