Re: Trick Flow heads
[Re: BradH]
#1989321
01/12/16 03:27 PM
01/12/16 03:27 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,274 Oregon
AndyF
I Win
|
I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,274
Oregon
|
Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single time where I used those fel-pro paper gaskets and they properly lined up with all the ports on any heads. Generally, when you line up one pair of ports, the ones at the other end of the head are too far from the first pair. Yep, the Fel-Pros are spaced too wide, the Indy SR gaskets are spot-on, and the Indy MW gaskets are too narrow. For some odd reason, when Hughes CNC'd my "standard port" Victors, it looks like they spaced the ports approx. the same as Indy does their MW gaskets, so I have to cut "good" standard-port gaskets to fit that narrower port spacing. Hughes' own house-brand gaskets don't fit, either. You'd think something this basic wouldn't be a freakin' problem, given everything else that goes into designing a head or a CNC program. This type of inconsistency plays He11 w/ intake manifold port alignment, too. I took the time to pull out the reverse engineering tool box and measure the location of the TF ports. Turns out that TF doesn't put the ports in a symmetrical location in regards to the bolt holes. The intake gasket as far as I can measure is symmetrical with respect to the bolt holes. One pair of ports on the TF head are shifted over by about 0.032 when compared to the other pair of ports. It is just enough that the gasket doesn't line up correctly.
|
|
|
Re: Trick Flow heads
[Re: AndyF]
#1989374
01/12/16 04:55 PM
01/12/16 04:55 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,857 Wichita
GY3
master
|
master
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,857
Wichita
|
Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single time where I used those fel-pro paper gaskets and they properly lined up with all the ports on any heads. Generally, when you line up one pair of ports, the ones at the other end of the head are too far from the first pair. Yep, the Fel-Pros are spaced too wide, the Indy SR gaskets are spot-on, and the Indy MW gaskets are too narrow. For some odd reason, when Hughes CNC'd my "standard port" Victors, it looks like they spaced the ports approx. the same as Indy does their MW gaskets, so I have to cut "good" standard-port gaskets to fit that narrower port spacing. Hughes' own house-brand gaskets don't fit, either. You'd think something this basic wouldn't be a freakin' problem, given everything else that goes into designing a head or a CNC program. This type of inconsistency plays He11 w/ intake manifold port alignment, too. I took the time to pull out the reverse engineering tool box and measure the location of the TF ports. Turns out that TF doesn't put the ports in a symmetrical location in regards to the bolt holes. The intake gasket as far as I can measure is symmetrical with respect to the bolt holes. One pair of ports on the TF head are shifted over by about 0.032 when compared to the other pair of ports. It is just enough that the gasket doesn't line up correctly. I would like to either borrow or find the source for said "reverse engineering toolbox".
|
|
|
Re: Trick Flow heads
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#1991274
01/15/16 02:05 PM
01/15/16 02:05 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,942 Metro Detroit
OUTLAWD
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,942
Metro Detroit
|
enough to break a stock block?
Faster, Faster until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death...
71 Swinger - slowly collecting dust/parts 66 Belv. II - just a streetcar 88 Mustang - turbo LS beater
|
|
|
Re: Trick Flow heads
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#1991350
01/15/16 03:43 PM
01/15/16 03:43 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,942 Metro Detroit
OUTLAWD
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,942
Metro Detroit
|
Andy's example is pushing close to 700 NA...boosted combinations are generally slightly more forgiving than NA, but power potential increases ALOT... Stock blocks are safe to 700 or so, see the most recent girdle thread: https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbt...tml#Post1990062The general consensus is if you think you need a girdle, you might as well step up to an aftermarket block.
Faster, Faster until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death...
71 Swinger - slowly collecting dust/parts 66 Belv. II - just a streetcar 88 Mustang - turbo LS beater
|
|
|
Re: Trick Flow heads
[Re: Jamie McGrath]
#1991363
01/15/16 04:03 PM
01/15/16 04:03 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,187 CT
GTX MATT
master
|
master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,187
CT
|
Even with a girdle? Those little SB chebbys and fords seem too be holding up... This is what I never understand, ask a MoPar guy on here how much a stock block can handle and they will tell you 600 HP. Ask a Chevy guy and they will tell you small and big blocks can take anywhere from 800-1000 HP. I have trouble believing that, and its not a "I'm a MoPar guy so I think they're better" thing. Look at both blocks and tell me which appears stronger, besides the fact that the MoPar stuff has geometry and slower piston on its side. I was also under the impression that Chrysler blocks were cast of a better content iron, but I'm not really sure. Don't get me wrong, I believe the Chevy stuff is pretty durable, much more so than the BOP stuff, and its obvious when you look at the stuff and hold it in your hands. But i'd really just like to get a real, unbiased answer and explanation as to why. And the Ford stuff don't even get me started, 10 head bolts?!
Last edited by GTX MATT; 01/15/16 04:05 PM.
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
|
|
|
Re: Trick Flow heads
[Re: hptuner]
#1991507
01/15/16 08:05 PM
01/15/16 08:05 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,857 Wichita
GY3
master
|
master
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,857
Wichita
|
I am wondering has anyone installed them and found the Quirks , like how much longer the pushrods needs to be than stock , will stock head bolt lengths work, those are the questions that I have of course lengths need to checked but they must know approx. how much longer the pushrods should be for a starting point. I will getting my pair ordered on my next trip to the machine shop. I have been waiting for these for a while ( like most of you) but do we really need to buy Trick flo bolts if we have new ARP's on the shelf ? Im so exited about getting them on I want it to be easy LOL . The pushrod length will vary depending on the rockers, milling on the block, cam and lifter choice etc. My pushrods varied by .75" just going from solid, flat tappet to hydraulic roller with my Stealths. I use a Trickflow adjustable "mockup" rod to get precise length pushrods and order them from Manton.
|
|
|
Re: Trick Flow heads
[Re: hptuner]
#1991553
01/15/16 09:19 PM
01/15/16 09:19 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,274 Oregon
AndyF
I Win
|
I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,274
Oregon
|
I am wondering has anyone installed them and found the Quirks , like how much longer the pushrods needs to be than stock , will stock head bolt lengths work, those are the questions that I have of course lengths need to checked but they must know approx. how much longer the pushrods should be for a starting point. I will getting my pair ordered on my next trip to the machine shop. I have been waiting for these for a while ( like most of you) but do we really need to buy Trick flo bolts if we have new ARP's on the shelf ? Im so exited about getting them on I want it to be easy LOL . Yes that has all been sorted out and answered in this thread. You need longer pushrods, the center row of head bolts has to be longer and you need rocker arm studs that are all the same length.
|
|
|
Re: Trick Flow heads
[Re: GTX MATT]
#1991659
01/15/16 11:39 PM
01/15/16 11:39 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 126 Oregon
Jamie McGrath
member
|
member
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 126
Oregon
|
Even with a girdle? Those little SB chebbys and fords seem too be holding up... This is what I never understand, ask a MoPar guy on here how much a stock block can handle and they will tell you 600 HP. Ask a Chevy guy and they will tell you small and big blocks can take anywhere from 800-1000 HP. I have trouble believing that, and its not a "I'm a MoPar guy so I think they're better" thing. Look at both blocks and tell me which appears stronger, besides the fact that the MoPar stuff has geometry and slower piston on its side. I was also under the impression that Chrysler blocks were cast of a better content iron, but I'm not really sure. Don't get me wrong, I believe the Chevy stuff is pretty durable, much more so than the BOP stuff, and its obvious when you look at the stuff and hold it in your hands. But i'd really just like to get a real, unbiased answer and explanation as to why. And the Ford stuff don't even get me started, 10 head bolts?! Yea, I'm in the same quandary..... I thought that centrifugal blowers ramped up the boost as the rpms climbed much like a turbo so they were softer on the bottom end parts? What am I missing? The boost doesn't just slam in like a nitrous system does.
|
|
|
Re: Trick Flow heads
[Re: Jamie McGrath]
#1991740
01/16/16 01:20 AM
01/16/16 01:20 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,361 Wild West
M_D
pro stock
|
pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,361
Wild West
|
Even with a girdle? Those little SB chebbys and fords seem too be holding up... This is what I never understand, ask a MoPar guy on here how much a stock block can handle and they will tell you 600 HP. Ask a Chevy guy and they will tell you small and big blocks can take anywhere from 800-1000 HP. I have trouble believing that, and its not a "I'm a MoPar guy so I think they're better" thing. Look at both blocks and tell me which appears stronger, besides the fact that the MoPar stuff has geometry and slower piston on its side. I was also under the impression that Chrysler blocks were cast of a better content iron, but I'm not really sure. Don't get me wrong, I believe the Chevy stuff is pretty durable, much more so than the BOP stuff, and its obvious when you look at the stuff and hold it in your hands. But i'd really just like to get a real, unbiased answer and explanation as to why. And the Ford stuff don't even get me started, 10 head bolts?! Yea, I'm in the same quandary..... I thought that centrifugal blowers ramped up the boost as the rpms climbed much like a turbo so they were softer on the bottom end parts? What am I missing? The boost doesn't just slam in like a nitrous system does. The cross-bolted production Hemi and especially the aftermarket big Mopar blocks are substantially better than the standard 2 bolt block. In my opinion the Chevy style 4 bolt main block styles are even better from an engineering standpoint. A stud girdle simply doesn’t upgrade a block to the equivalent of a cross-bolted or 4 main block. While abrupt “hammering” type loads are harder on parts, there is point where even a “smoother” load is too much. There just isn’t enough material or fasteners in the bottom of a stock 2 bolt Mopar block once the power reaches a certain point. If I could go back in time and there were one thing I could change on a stock big block Mopar it would be the main cap arrangement and the associated weakness. If there were 2 things I would spread the bores.
|
|
|
Re: Trick Flow heads
[Re: GTX MATT]
#1992086
01/16/16 04:56 PM
01/16/16 04:56 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,946 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
|
I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,946
Bend,OR USA
|
Even with a girdle? Those little SB chebbys and fords seem too be holding up... This is what I never understand, ask a MoPar guy on here how much a stock block can handle and they will tell you 600 HP. The stock 440 blocks can and do have main web cracking problems above 600 HP, probally dependent on the tuner and driver The regular 1972 and later thicker main web 400 blocks can handle a bunch more than that. The very rare 400 "230" casting # winter blocks with the extra thick main webbing can handle a bunch more than the later 400 block do A new 4 main bolt race block for seruios builds is the best choice
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
|
|
|
Re: Trick Flow heads
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#1992099
01/16/16 05:22 PM
01/16/16 05:22 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
|
Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
|
Now someone needs to start casting up blocks.. I could use a 340 based SB like the R-blocks.. all sorts of heads out there and not a block to be had
|
|
|
|
|