Re: PS intake article
[Re: madscientist]
#1970892
12/16/15 04:30 PM
12/16/15 04:30 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890 North Alabama
Monte_Smith
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I have had several people tell me, that limiting the rpm to 10,500 from unlimited, will save the teams over 1 million dollars a year. That sorta seems like a cost savings to me. One of those guys, who now works for Holley, worked for a competitive Pro-Stock engine builder for 7 years. So he MIGHT know a thing or two about the class. Me personally, I don't know squat about Pro-Stock and about what it takes to run the class at a top level. But I know people that DO and I trust what they tell me.
Wonks, as you call them, had nothing to do with the current state of Pro-Stock. It was and always is MONEY and who was willing to spend MORE of it. You want nothing but a few mega-dollar teams, sure, let them do whatever they want. You want anything other than that, you need rules. So maybe YOU are the one who doesn't get it
Last edited by Monte_Smith; 12/16/15 04:31 PM.
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Re: PS intake article
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1970900
12/16/15 04:38 PM
12/16/15 04:38 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
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I have had several people tell me, that limiting the rpm to 10,500 from unlimited, will save the teams over 1 million dollars a year. That sorta seems like a cost savings to me. One of those guys, who now works for Holley, worked for a competitive Pro-Stock engine builder for 7 years. So he MIGHT know a thing or two about the class. Me personally, I don't know squat about Pro-Stock and about what it takes to run the class at a top level. But I know people that DO and I trust what they tell me.
Wonks, as you call them, had nothing to do with the current state of Pro-Stock. It was and always is MONEY and who was willing to spend MORE of it. You want nothing but a few mega-dollar teams, sure, let them do whatever they want. You want anything other than that, you need rules. So maybe YOU are the one who doesn't get it That's not what I'm hearing. No one I know of has said the RPM limit will save a single dollar on springs. The cam guys are grinding lobes for the lower RPM stuff with more agressive profiles. It's not just RPM that kills springs. I did a 377 chevy back in 1987 and got my [censored] infront of my head and went with a lobe a now defunt cam grinder was working on. Shift RPM was going to be 68-6900 with a trap speed of about 7200. Killed a set of springs warming it up on the dyno. Pulled it off, made some changes to accomodate a different spring. Those springs made it to the first pull. So it's not about RPM. As far as the money goes, I've been hearing that arguement since NHRA went to 500CID. Same old, same old. What has NHRA done in the past that has fixed anything? I won't wait for an answer.
Last edited by madscientist; 12/16/15 04:40 PM.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: PS intake article
[Re: justinp61]
#1970902
12/16/15 04:42 PM
12/16/15 04:42 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
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madscientist
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Well since you seem to be the ONLY person that has the answer why don't you enlighten the rest of us who are to dense to get it? I'm not going to type it again, as evidently you either don't read, can't read or won't read. Did you even read the link I posted? I'm not the only one who thinks the way I do. Deal with it.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: PS intake article
[Re: HotRodDave]
#1970903
12/16/15 04:42 PM
12/16/15 04:42 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506 Az
Crizila
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Great article. Thanks for posting! Latent heat of evaporation = carburetored cars big advantage! Enjoyed reading some of the answers also. Like always there is two sides of the coin ain't there? MPFI you don't got to worry about the fuel dropping out of suspension or getting the exact same amount to each cylinder, and it is easier to get the exact same air to every cylinder also. I bet if the choice was left up to the teams to keep carbs or go EFI they would all switch to EFI fairly quickly. All very true - and much more on the driveability side. ![bow bow](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/custom/bow.gif) We will see how they run.
Fastest 300
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Re: PS intake article
[Re: madscientist]
#1970944
12/16/15 06:08 PM
12/16/15 06:08 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890 North Alabama
Monte_Smith
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Adam told me that when they were running 10,500 like everyone else, their motors were as competitive as anybody's. When they went to 10,700 they were ok. Once they got to 11,000, they were priced out of the business. You are correct, it is NOT just the rpm. It is the cost of the development to make power and make the motor LIVE at that rpm. It simply priced them out, along with several other lower budget teams. Now, are teams going to continue to try and develop power at 10,500, well of course they are. But that seems to be the manageable rpm level, that all teams were capable of without extravagant R&D levels.
Again, I don't know anything about Pro-Stock motors, but I know people who do and what I heard from Adam, was also the same thing I heard from WJ, Vince Khoury, Steve Schmidt and a few others. They should know and they all said the SAME thing. The move from 10,500 to 11,000 rpm will nearly DOUBLE your budget immediately
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Re: PS intake article
[Re: madscientist]
#1970947
12/16/15 06:13 PM
12/16/15 06:13 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,686 W. Kentucky
justinp61
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I'm not going to type it again, as evidently you either don't read, can't read or won't read.
Did you even read the link I posted? I'm not the only one who thinks the way I do.
Deal with it.
That's about what I expected. I'm dealing with it fine, it seems your the one who's not. ![biggrin biggrin](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/custom/biggrin.gif) BTW I did read the article.
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Re: PS intake article
[Re: TheOtherDodge]
#1970982
12/16/15 07:02 PM
12/16/15 07:02 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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Seems to me that all the teams will be doing a pile of R&D trying to come up with a new intake system that makes power.. it took the teams years to get where they are now.. so this is starting all over again... but just a injected engine.. Id be interested in seeing the out come of the injected stuff ![wave wave](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/custom/wave.gif)
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Re: PS intake article
[Re: madscientist]
#1971012
12/16/15 08:01 PM
12/16/15 08:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,131 Amarillo, Texas
BBR
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I'll just be waiting to see who is the first car suck a hot dog wrapper up that track vacuum cleaner schnoz.
Drag Week 2011 - 77th place - DD Drag Week 2012 - 2nd place SRBB N/A Drag Week 2014 - Kapooya RMRW 2018 RMRW 2020
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Re: PS intake article
[Re: madscientist]
#1971241
12/17/15 01:37 AM
12/17/15 01:37 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,384 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
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Well here some food for thought from someone in the know...This is a quote from Charlie Wescott
"the efi stuff was delivered to most people I know about 6 weeks ago. The front end parts dont even exist yet as far as I know. Supposed to be ready in january. I feel for the people that want to go to pomona. Not sure how you get it all ready and test when it doesnt exist. Apparently there are some software issues. They (holley) emailed me a link to the "new" version of the software this morning, then I just got another email that said that version is broken, and they will have a new one on the 18th. I have talked to 2 teams that told me they started out 100 down. Not sure if they got any of that back yet or not. I try not to ask too many questions."
And this was from another source
"A Pro Stock team, who wants to remain nameless, said, "In regards to the Bangshift article, that intake they showed has runners about 2" too long. Having a long runner and big plenum, that's totally false; the long runner thing is anyways. Whenever someone says something that is as totally wrong as that, I have a hard time giving much credit to anything else that comes from their mouths as far as the EFI ducting. We don't know how all the teams are supposed to get ready when the stuff isn't even available until January, and the Pomona race is in February.
We have our first EFI intake made, and hope to have the engine reconfigured soon also with a new design head. What I do know, is that EFI is 100HP down from carbs."
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: PS intake article
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#1971286
12/17/15 03:24 AM
12/17/15 03:24 AM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
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Well here some food for thought from someone in the know...This is a quote from Charlie Wescott
"the efi stuff was delivered to most people I know about 6 weeks ago. The front end parts dont even exist yet as far as I know. Supposed to be ready in january. I feel for the people that want to go to pomona. Not sure how you get it all ready and test when it doesnt exist. Apparently there are some software issues. They (holley) emailed me a link to the "new" version of the software this morning, then I just got another email that said that version is broken, and they will have a new one on the 18th. I have talked to 2 teams that told me they started out 100 down. Not sure if they got any of that back yet or not. I try not to ask too many questions."
And this was from another source
"A Pro Stock team, who wants to remain nameless, said, "In regards to the Bangshift article, that intake they showed has runners about 2" too long. Having a long runner and big plenum, that's totally false; the long runner thing is anyways. Whenever someone says something that is as totally wrong as that, I have a hard time giving much credit to anything else that comes from their mouths as far as the EFI ducting. We don't know how all the teams are supposed to get ready when the stuff isn't even available until January, and the Pomona race is in February.
We have our first EFI intake made, and hope to have the engine reconfigured soon also with a new design head. What I do know, is that EFI is 100HP down from carbs." Yup, sure sounds like costs are down and the class will thrive. I think the author of the article was saying more about the fact there won't be nearly as much you can do with the manifold than if the rules were more open.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: PS intake article
[Re: madscientist]
#1971291
12/17/15 03:38 AM
12/17/15 03:38 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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Yup, sure sounds like costs are down and the class will thrive. I think the author of the article was saying more about the fact there won't be nearly as much you can do with the manifold than if the rules were more open. [/quote] You dont know and they dont know YET.. just like before.. its gonna take time .. took them years to fine tune stuff... I'm open to the injection ![wave wave](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/custom/wave.gif)
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Re: PS intake article
[Re: madscientist]
#1971298
12/17/15 04:08 AM
12/17/15 04:08 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890 North Alabama
Monte_Smith
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I talked with Nick Ferri at PRI, who works for Elite Motorsports. I asked him two questions. One about the Mopar blocks, he said they had just received 3 new ones. I asked him about power. He said they started off 85hp down and were now 25 down. This was of last week. I just sent some more parts to an engine builder in Florida who has a Pro-Stock customer. His last set up was 30 down from a motor they qualified with last year and he had another manifold to try after PRI.
I have heard of no "problems" with the ECUs. It is simply our HP ECU with the software changes required by NHRA. The only thing I heard was that the RPM limiter could be "cracked" if someone put the time in and that was being addressed. All the parts from US/Holley, are in stock, shipping and have been. Anybody that wants or needs it, has it. They are NOT free. There is one set price, that is somewhere between our cost and dealer WD. All teams pay the same price, whether you buy one or ten.
The entire EFI "system" including TB, injectors, ECU, coils and required sensors, costs less than half one set of "Pro-Stock" prepped carbs from one of the gurus.
These guys change, intakes, carbs and cams, like most of us change socks. So just taking the carbs out of the equation helps.
I was at Steve Schmidt's shop several years ago when he was still leasing motors. He had one room in his shop, that was as big as a two car garage. Had shelving to the ceiling all around, that was jam packed with intakes, heads, carbs and cams. When I asked what that was, I was told that the "stuff that didn't work room".............lol!! And he was NOT a mega buck guy, so imagine what those guys had tried. When Mike Duke was there, he said they ordered CNC ported heads from CFM by the pallets. He would design a new port, flow test it and if it looked promising, he would do a set of heads and they would test. He said WAY more heads went in the "room" than went to the shop for further work
Last edited by Monte_Smith; 12/17/15 04:19 AM.
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Re: PS intake article
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1971375
12/17/15 12:24 PM
12/17/15 12:24 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506 Az
Crizila
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I talked with Nick Ferri at PRI, who works for Elite Motorsports. I asked him two questions. One about the Mopar blocks, he said they had just received 3 new ones. I asked him about power. He said they started off 85hp down and were now 25 down. This was of last week. I just sent some more parts to an engine builder in Florida who has a Pro-Stock customer. His last set up was 30 down from a motor they qualified with last year and he had another manifold to try after PRI.
I have heard of no "problems" with the ECUs. It is simply our HP ECU with the software changes required by NHRA. The only thing I heard was that the RPM limiter could be "cracked" if someone put the time in and that was being addressed. All the parts from US/Holley, are in stock, shipping and have been. Anybody that wants or needs it, has it. They are NOT free. There is one set price, that is somewhere between our cost and dealer WD. All teams pay the same price, whether you buy one or ten.
The entire EFI "system" including TB, injectors, ECU, coils and required sensors, costs less than half one set of "Pro-Stock" prepped carbs from one of the gurus.
These guys change, intakes, carbs and cams, like most of us change socks. So just taking the carbs out of the equation helps.
I was at Steve Schmidt's shop several years ago when he was still leasing motors. He had one room in his shop, that was as big as a two car garage. Had shelving to the ceiling all around, that was jam packed with intakes, heads, carbs and cams. When I asked what that was, I was told that the "stuff that didn't work room".............lol!! And he was NOT a mega buck guy, so imagine what those guys had tried. When Mike Duke was there, he said they ordered CNC ported heads from CFM by the pallets. He would design a new port, flow test it and if it looked promising, he would do a set of heads and they would test. He said WAY more heads went in the "room" than went to the shop for further work Interesting ![up up](/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/custom/thumbs_up.gif) and funny- "stuff that didn't work room". Mine ( on a much smaller scale ) is called a garage attic - cause my wife don't go there. Looks like it won't take too long for the PS guys to get the lost HP back.
Fastest 300
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Re: PS intake article
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1971377
12/17/15 12:29 PM
12/17/15 12:29 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,060 Western New York
sixpackbee
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I would think that the money savings will not be seen for several years. They will be throwing intakes, heads, & cams away like candy wrappers the first few years before the learning curve flattens out. I will be interested in the et delta at Pamona. The scoop required a ton of HP to push through the air. The gearing changes required for the lower engine RPM will hurt a bit. And subsequently less power pulses down the track in a given time. They will get it figured out but may take a little time.
1959 Bugeye Sprite 1967 Charger Black L code 1967 Coronet R/T Convert Green 440 auto bought from original owner 1968 Charger R/T Bronze 440 4 spd console AM/FM 1969 Super Bee WM21H B5 A40 D21 N96 1969 Barracuda Formula S 340 Convert pilot car 1969 Hemi Road Runner RM23J D32 Omaha orange 4.10 Dana N96 N85 1970 Super Bee WM23N FE5 V1X 3.91 axle package, N96 1970 Road Runner RM21N B3 V1X D13 1971 MG Midget 1971 Road Runner RM23H GW3, A57 1972 Road Runner RM23P FY1, D21
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Re: PS intake article
[Re: madscientist]
#1971451
12/17/15 03:03 PM
12/17/15 03:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,384 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
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I was just quoting what Wescott and Drag Racing Beyond the numbers is saying. Cannot imagine Wescott is making it all up about the ECU stuff. He has spent a lot of money to run Pro Stock and these changes he has to adapt to as he plans to run PS.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: PS intake article
[Re: madscientist]
#1971496
12/17/15 04:16 PM
12/17/15 04:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 684 St. Charles, MO.
Slingshot383
mopar
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mopar
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You all are forgetting the other change, shorter wheelie bar, that will have an affect on the first 300 ft. of the run.
1994 Undercover Chassis 125" altered
stack injected big block, soon blown and injected
Member of The Torque and Recoil Club
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Re: PS intake article
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1971498
12/17/15 04:17 PM
12/17/15 04:17 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
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I talked with Nick Ferri at PRI, who works for Elite Motorsports. I asked him two questions. One about the Mopar blocks, he said they had just received 3 new ones. I asked him about power. He said they started off 85hp down and were now 25 down. This was of last week. I just sent some more parts to an engine builder in Florida who has a Pro-Stock customer. His last set up was 30 down from a motor they qualified with last year and he had another manifold to try after PRI.
I have heard of no "problems" with the ECUs. It is simply our HP ECU with the software changes required by NHRA. The only thing I heard was that the RPM limiter could be "cracked" if someone put the time in and that was being addressed. All the parts from US/Holley, are in stock, shipping and have been. Anybody that wants or needs it, has it. They are NOT free. There is one set price, that is somewhere between our cost and dealer WD. All teams pay the same price, whether you buy one or ten.
The entire EFI "system" including TB, injectors, ECU, coils and required sensors, costs less than half one set of "Pro-Stock" prepped carbs from one of the gurus.
These guys change, intakes, carbs and cams, like most of us change socks. So just taking the carbs out of the equation helps.
I was at Steve Schmidt's shop several years ago when he was still leasing motors. He had one room in his shop, that was as big as a two car garage. Had shelving to the ceiling all around, that was jam packed with intakes, heads, carbs and cams. When I asked what that was, I was told that the "stuff that didn't work room".............lol!! And he was NOT a mega buck guy, so imagine what those guys had tried. When Mike Duke was there, he said they ordered CNC ported heads from CFM by the pallets. He would design a new port, flow test it and if it looked promising, he would do a set of heads and they would test. He said WAY more heads went in the "room" than went to the shop for further work Ok Monte, you/Holley (using your reference above) win. It's the greatest thing ever to eliminate competition, and make the class even more boring, so I give and bow to your/Holley's/NHRA/s superior knowledge and wisdom. FWIW and just so you know, Dodge refused to alter the PST bodies because even though they didn't win and had a significant HP advantage (I could tell you who was telling me this but you know it already and I don't like to name drop) was because they few trucks they had running were competitive and the trucks were selling at above production levels. And Dodge knew NHRA was killing the class. So you win. I bow to your knowledge, prestige, wisdom and great looks (verified that by others who have seen you up close). Later dude.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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