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Re: Fuel Volume vs. Fuel Pressure [Re: Just-a-dart] #1938645
10/25/15 11:43 PM
10/25/15 11:43 PM
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Milwaukee WI
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TRENDZ Offline
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Boost ref regulators maintain the differential pressure in the bowl. Without the ref line to the regulator, you would be very limited on boost pressure.
Lets say base fuel pressure is 5 psi. Since the fuel bowl is vented to the carb hat in a boosted application, you would start to slow fuel delivery as boost increased... The boost pressure would fight the flow of incoming fuel. At 2psi of boost, you would have 3psi of differential pressure, at 5 psi, you would have no differential pressure, and no fuel flow. So, higher pressures are needed with a boosted carb.
At 10# boost, with a ref regulator, you end up with 15psi fuel pressure in the fuel line, but a 5psi differential pressure in the bowl, so fuel isn't screaming in through the needle and seat.
As far as vacuum ref regulators, I see no real need for doing it. Cars that need really high end fuel systems generally make minimal vacuum.


"use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"
Re: Fuel Volume vs. Fuel Pressure [Re: dvw] #1938653
10/25/15 11:57 PM
10/25/15 11:57 PM
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North Alabama
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Monte_Smith Offline
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Originally Posted By dvw
If pressure is being measured directly at the line between the regulator, how could there be inadequate flow to the needle and seat? If there wasn't adequate volume in that line to keep a steady state of fuel at the needle and seat wouldn't the pressure reading go down? As long as the regulator can feed the volume of fuel held in that line with the needle open the pressure will remain constant. Pascals law states; "When pressure on any portion of a confined liquid is changed, the pressure on every other part of the liquid is also changed by the same amount." The needle and seat causes the volume of liquid to no longer be confined. If the needle is open the confined area must be constantly refilled equaling the exiting volume to maintain the same pressure. Obviously flow over time and quality of pure liquid could change and maybe the instruments used to monitor it aren't quick or accurate enough to record the true story. The argument about aerated fuel and using the least pressure necessary makes sense. When we use pressure vs volume maybe it isn't that we don't have adequate flow but the "quality" of the fuel being delivered isn't 100% liquid? Or am I missing something?
Doug
When you set a regulator at 5psi flowing, it has 5 psi flowing, because that is what you are telling it to flow. Has NOTHING to do with the volume, the reg is just maintaining the pressure you set it to. I test this stuff everyday on my flow bench. As an example, on the fuel side of my nitrous flow bench, the fuel reg has a .016 bleed jet to bypass fuel and keep the regulator from stacking. So lets say I set that reg to 5psi if that is my test pressure I am measuring fuel flow at. Now, I may be testing a plate system with ONE small fuel jet, or a fogger with EIGHT pretty decent size fuel jets, or just the pump running through the bleed jet. The differences in the VOLUME of fuel I pass, as measured in lb/hr can be quite large......BUT the outlet side of the regulator stays at a steady 5 psi, because that's where I set it. I do this everyday and monitor fuel flow with Rotometers, as well as pressure tranducers on a Racepak, as well as checking pressures about everywhere you can imagine, meaning before and after every piece of the system. I also have a mechanical 8 gal pump that I spin with an electric motor. I can flow a little fuel, or enough for a blown alky setup

So a too small pump can continue to supply pressure at the needle and seat, because it is regulated, but that in no way means it has adequate volume. You want to keep the bowls full, not just enough in there to run on. Which goes back to that aeration thing.

So unless I am missing what you are asking........just look at YOUR car. You know the fuel volume is much greater with the motor at full song. So does your pressure read the same with the car idling, as it does going down the track? It should.

I have proven this to guys by having them clean kill the power and neutral the car at the stripe, with the car under full power. Tow it back to the pits and pull the bowls. Have seen them basically DRY and never be a hiccup in the pressure trace on the logger graph. Not enough volume, but plenty of pressure

Last edited by Monte_Smith; 10/26/15 12:07 AM.
Re: Fuel Volume vs. Fuel Pressure [Re: Monte_Smith] #1938679
10/26/15 12:33 AM
10/26/15 12:33 AM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,552
Rittman Ohio
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Rittman Ohio
So I have often wondered what the fuel bypass logs are used for shruggy The circle track guys seem to be using them the most but is this a better setup than a dead head regulator or even a return style system? Or am I completely off base here and they only use them with a high volume mechanical belt drive alky pumps shruggy
I have to change the position of my regulator to conform to the rules so I'm completely re-plumbing my entire system with filters and all. So this thread is very interesting to me up

Thanks for all the "seasoned" wisdom contained in the real world replies bow

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Re: Fuel Volume vs. Fuel Pressure [Re: tboomer] #1938693
10/26/15 12:54 AM
10/26/15 12:54 AM
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North Alabama
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It's about Volume, they are trying to run as much volume of fuel as they can by the carb inlets. If it needs it, the fuel is there. That's why they are big.

As I said much earlier, it's not about the pump, it's not about the reg, or any single part.........it's the SYSTEM.

Guys want to save a buck and I understand that, but the fuel system is not where I want to "get by". I want more fuel system than I need and also more electrical system than I need

Last edited by Monte_Smith; 10/26/15 12:59 AM.
Re: Fuel Volume vs. Fuel Pressure [Re: Monte_Smith] #1938698
10/26/15 01:01 AM
10/26/15 01:01 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,522
Ste-Sophie, Quebec, Canada
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Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
Originally Posted By dvw
If pressure is being measured directly at the line between the regulator, how could there be inadequate flow to the needle and seat? If there wasn't adequate volume in that line to keep a steady state of fuel at the needle and seat wouldn't the pressure reading go down? As long as the regulator can feed the volume of fuel held in that line with the needle open the pressure will remain constant. Pascals law states; "When pressure on any portion of a confined liquid is changed, the pressure on every other part of the liquid is also changed by the same amount." The needle and seat causes the volume of liquid to no longer be confined. If the needle is open the confined area must be constantly refilled equaling the exiting volume to maintain the same pressure. Obviously flow over time and quality of pure liquid could change and maybe the instruments used to monitor it aren't quick or accurate enough to record the true story. The argument about aerated fuel and using the least pressure necessary makes sense. When we use pressure vs volume maybe it isn't that we don't have adequate flow but the "quality" of the fuel being delivered isn't 100% liquid? Or am I missing something?
Doug
When you set a regulator at 5psi flowing, it has 5 psi flowing, because that is what you are telling it to flow. Has NOTHING to do with the volume, the reg is just maintaining the pressure you set it to. I test this stuff everyday on my flow bench. As an example, on the fuel side of my nitrous flow bench, the fuel reg has a .016 bleed jet to bypass fuel and keep the regulator from stacking. So lets say I set that reg to 5psi if that is my test pressure I am measuring fuel flow at. Now, I may be testing a plate system with ONE small fuel jet, or a fogger with EIGHT pretty decent size fuel jets, or just the pump running through the bleed jet. The differences in the VOLUME of fuel I pass, as measured in lb/hr can be quite large......BUT the outlet side of the regulator stays at a steady 5 psi, because that's where I set it. I do this everyday and monitor fuel flow with Rotometers, as well as pressure tranducers on a Racepak, as well as checking pressures about everywhere you can imagine, meaning before and after every piece of the system. I also have a mechanical 8 gal pump that I spin with an electric motor. I can flow a little fuel, or enough for a blown alky setup

So a too small pump can continue to supply pressure at the needle and seat, because it is regulated, but that in no way means it has adequate volume. You want to keep the bowls full, not just enough in there to run on. Which goes back to that aeration thing.

So unless I am missing what you are asking........just look at YOUR car. You know the fuel volume is much greater with the motor at full song. So does your pressure read the same with the car idling, as it does going down the track? It should.

I have proven this to guys by having them clean kill the power and neutral the car at the stripe, with the car under full power. Tow it back to the pits and pull the bowls. Have seen them basically DRY and never be a hiccup in the pressure trace on the logger graph. Not enough volume, but plenty of pressure


Killing the fuel pump at the end of the track........here is the most simple and obvious way to know where your system is at !

Why didn't I think of that before !


Dan

Re: Fuel Volume vs. Fuel Pressure [Re: tboomer] #1938708
10/26/15 01:11 AM
10/26/15 01:11 AM
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North Alabama
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Monte_Smith Offline
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Gotta kill, motor, pump and go into neutral all at same time to get an accurate read. Let motor run down against trans with pump off and it will drain the bowls as well

Re: Fuel Volume vs. Fuel Pressure [Re: Monte_Smith] #1938726
10/26/15 01:36 AM
10/26/15 01:36 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,827
MI, usa
dvw Offline
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Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
Originally Posted By dvw
If pressure is being measured directly at the line between the regulator, how could there be inadequate flow to the needle and seat? If there wasn't adequate volume in that line to keep a steady state of fuel at the needle and seat wouldn't the pressure reading go down? As long as the regulator can feed the volume of fuel held in that line with the needle open the pressure will remain constant. Pascals law states; "When pressure on any portion of a confined liquid is changed, the pressure on every other part of the liquid is also changed by the same amount." The needle and seat causes the volume of liquid to no longer be confined. If the needle is open the confined area must be constantly refilled equaling the exiting volume to maintain the same pressure. Obviously flow over time and quality of pure liquid could change and maybe the instruments used to monitor it aren't quick or accurate enough to record the true story. The argument about aerated fuel and using the least pressure necessary makes sense. When we use pressure vs volume maybe it isn't that we don't have adequate flow but the "quality" of the fuel being delivered isn't 100% liquid? Or am I missing something?
Doug
When you set a regulator at 5psi flowing, it has 5 psi flowing, because that is what you are telling it to flow. Has NOTHING to do with the volume, the reg is just maintaining the pressure you set it to. I test this stuff everyday on my flow bench. As an example, on the fuel side of my nitrous flow bench, the fuel reg has a .016 bleed jet to bypass fuel and keep the regulator from stacking. So lets say I set that reg to 5psi if that is my test pressure I am measuring fuel flow at. Now, I may be testing a plate system with ONE small fuel jet, or a fogger with EIGHT pretty decent size fuel jets, or just the pump running through the bleed jet. The differences in the VOLUME of fuel I pass, as measured in lb/hr can be quite large......BUT the outlet side of the regulator stays at a steady 5 psi, because that's where I set it. I do this everyday and monitor fuel flow with Rotometers, as well as pressure tranducers on a Racepak, as well as checking pressures about everywhere you can imagine, meaning before and after every piece of the system. I also have a mechanical 8 gal pump that I spin with an electric motor. I can flow a little fuel, or enough for a blown alky setup

So a too small pump can continue to supply pressure at the needle and seat, because it is regulated, but that in no way means it has adequate volume. You want to keep the bowls full, not just enough in there to run on. Which goes back to that aeration thing.

So unless I am missing what you are asking........just look at YOUR car. You know the fuel volume is much greater with the motor at full song. So does your pressure read the same with the car idling, as it does going down the track? It should.

I have proven this to guys by having them clean kill the power and neutral the car at the stripe, with the car under full power. Tow it back to the pits and pull the bowls. Have seen them basically DRY and never be a hiccup in the pressure trace on the logger graph. Not enough volume, but plenty of pressure

So if I understand correctly the gauge at the regulator is set at 5 psi and reads 5 psi flowing (I'm assuming into an open container with no g force restrictions.) A volume of fuel flows into the feed line between the regulator outlet and the needle/seat assy. If fuel flows out through the needle and seat faster than it can be replenished by the regulated system (inadequate volume) then the pressure in the line itself would be lower than regulator set pressure? is this correct?
Doug

Re: Fuel Volume vs. Fuel Pressure [Re: TRENDZ] #1938766
10/26/15 03:28 AM
10/26/15 03:28 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
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Glendora Ca.
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Just-a-dart Offline
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Thank you TRENDZ, I get that even though I do not play with a blow thru.

What I was thinking about was Patrick's (Prosystems) set up. http://www.prosystemsracing.com/frienddom.html

Looks like this could add to fuel aeration issues to me, especially if you start a little high to begin with.

Last edited by Just-a-dart; 10/26/15 03:35 AM.


"Just a Bracket car dressed up like a streetcar"
Re: Fuel Volume vs. Fuel Pressure [Re: Just-a-dart] #1960608
12/01/15 12:50 AM
12/01/15 12:50 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,532
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340B5 Offline
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Ordered a set of these Holley Ultra HP bowls. I hope the baffles combined w/ lower pressure will help reduce aeration.


Yeah, it's got a smallblock.
Re: Fuel Volume vs. Fuel Pressure [Re: 340B5] #1960666
12/01/15 01:45 AM
12/01/15 01:45 AM
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State of confusion
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Originally Posted By 340B5


Ordered a set of these Holley Ultra HP bowls. I hope the baffles combined w/ lower pressure will help reduce aeration.


Those look nice. Do you have a pic of the fuel entrance by chance?


72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
Re: Fuel Volume vs. Fuel Pressure [Re: Thumperdart] #1960774
12/01/15 09:49 AM
12/01/15 09:49 AM
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I'll work on a pic tonight after work, but the entrance looks like the QF bowl pics posted earlier.


Yeah, it's got a smallblock.
Re: Fuel Volume vs. Fuel Pressure [Re: 340B5] #1960971
12/01/15 03:03 PM
12/01/15 03:03 PM
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Then you're golden.......


72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
Re: Fuel Volume vs. Fuel Pressure [Re: Thumperdart] #1961292
12/01/15 10:29 PM
12/01/15 10:29 PM
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Here ya go.



Yeah, it's got a smallblock.
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