Re: Supercharged or Stroked 360
[Re: 67autocross]
#1930629
10/12/15 02:19 AM
10/12/15 02:19 AM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375 SoCal
MuuMuu101
OP
I got lucky at Woodward!
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OP
I got lucky at Woodward!
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375
SoCal
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Just do a simple turn the key and drive it stock stroke 360 with a small carb, even if it makes 400 hp that will be plenty for autocross and track days given the brakes and tires that you have. If you start trying to build some high powered thing or do a gen 3 hemi swap you will be just looking at it sitting the garage for years. You are not going to win the optima fastest street car shootout with the car if it has 400,500 or 700 horsepower...so build something you can get and drive and not lift the hood for a month. The tower seems to be leaning more and more into this direction. We'll see what happens. This is what someone at FABO stated not too long ago. I don't know about you guys, but if I saw a 408 stroker or blown 360 and it only made 400whp I'd be none too impressed. Not trying to insult anybody, but a well thought out 360 would meet that goal easily, IMO.
How about a stock stroke 360 in the 10-10.5:1 compression range, roller cam upgrade (spec'd for your build, there are a few advantages over flat tappet), ported aluminum heads(ported Eddys or Speedmaster), port matched intake (single or dual plane), and last but not least, EFI (FITECH is looking promising). A build like this would easily meet your goals and, IMO, would be much more enjoyable. No hassling with the blower setup. No having to worry about the longevity issues with a 4" stroke (Piston skirt wear). No fooling with stumbles, bogs, or heat soak issues associated with carbs (assuming you can tune one anyway). Just get in it, hit the key, and go. As much as I'd love EFI, I don't think I'll afford it this go around.
Last edited by MuuMuu101; 10/12/15 02:21 AM.
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Re: Supercharged or Stroked 360
[Re: MuuMuu101]
#1930670
10/12/15 08:37 AM
10/12/15 08:37 AM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723 Houston Tx
Uhcoog1
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723
Houston Tx
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Do a leakdown test. See where the air is leaking- crankcase (rings), intake or exhaust (valve), or head gasket (offsetting cylinder or bubbles in the antifreeze). This can be done with the motor out. This will better tell you what is wrong, and will help with your decision.
-'02 Dodge Viper Ex-World Challenge racecar -'73 Duster, 6.1 based 392 hilborn hemi, tko600, full floater rear 9", Hellwig custom bars, viper brakes, built for road course
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Re: Supercharged or Stroked 360
[Re: MuuMuu101]
#1930789
10/12/15 12:38 PM
10/12/15 12:38 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074 Manitoba Canada
67autocross
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074
Manitoba Canada
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Just do a simple turn the key and drive it stock stroke 360 with a small carb, even if it makes 400 hp that will be plenty for autocross and track days given the brakes and tires that you have. If you start trying to build some high powered thing or do a gen 3 hemi swap you will be just looking at it sitting the garage for years. You are not going to win the optima fastest street car shootout with the car if it has 400,500 or 700 horsepower...so build something you can get and drive and not lift the hood for a month. The tower seems to be leaning more and more into this direction. We'll see what happens. This is what someone at FABO stated not too long ago. I don't know about you guys, but if I saw a 408 stroker or blown 360 and it only made 400whp I'd be none too impressed. Not trying to insult anybody, but a well thought out 360 would meet that goal easily, IMO.
How about a stock stroke 360 in the 10-10.5:1 compression range, roller cam upgrade (spec'd for your build, there are a few advantages over flat tappet), ported aluminum heads(ported Eddys or Speedmaster), port matched intake (single or dual plane), and last but not least, EFI (FITECH is looking promising). A build like this would easily meet your goals and, IMO, would be much more enjoyable. No hassling with the blower setup. No having to worry about the longevity issues with a 4" stroke (Piston skirt wear). No fooling with stumbles, bogs, or heat soak issues associated with carbs (assuming you can tune one anyway). Just get in it, hit the key, and go. As much as I'd love EFI, I don't think I'll afford it this go around. I would still try for the EFI if you don't already have a good carb, with systems like FITECH you would only be up a $1000 over a good carb, and if the carb runs bad you will be putting out money for jets and tuning. I would personally shoot for 400-425HP at the crank for a car like yours, it will be fast enough to be fun on the street, enough for autocross and if you take it to a road race track it won't be overpowering your brakes, chassis and tires.
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
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Re: Supercharged or Stroked 360
[Re: MuuMuu101]
#1930835
10/12/15 01:50 PM
10/12/15 01:50 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 751 Saint Peters, MO
Brian
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 751
Saint Peters, MO
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With all you've done to your car the last few months, you may consider what will it take to get that supercharged 360 running and get it in the car after swapping to a duel plane intake. The problem with the long arm 360 will be getting it to breath, cam heads, more money and at that point you maybe wondering why you didn't go with a GEN III.
1971 6.1 Gen III Hemi Duster
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Re: Supercharged or Stroked 360
[Re: Brian]
#1930841
10/12/15 02:00 PM
10/12/15 02:00 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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The trees are blocking the view of the forest.
A 4bbl OEM 318 will humble most here real fast on a road race circuit. Baby steps, are better at making progress then pondering. Seems to be two polar opposite groups here in thinking and suggestions, wonder which one has actually spent any time on track?
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Supercharged or Stroked 360
[Re: MuuMuu101]
#1930930
10/12/15 04:42 PM
10/12/15 04:42 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,482 Lake Orion, MI
goldduster318
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,482
Lake Orion, MI
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As I shared on FABO, I think your best bet is an edelbrock headed stock stroke 360. This will help you hook, you'll spend your money on something that both increases performance of the engine (better flowing heads) and also makes the front end significantly lighter. You can keep the costs down but I would suggest swapping the edelbrock standard springs out for some beehive ones (they are SBC sizes so it's cake). Get some light hypereutectic pistons that get it to zero deck and I would invest in a hydraulic roller in the high 220's duration at .050 and it will really rock.
My car is pretty fast and you can actually put the power down pretty well on the 275's.
'70 Duster 470hp 340/T56 Magnum/8 3/4 3.23 Sure-Grip
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Re: Supercharged or Stroked 360
[Re: MuuMuu101]
#1930935
10/12/15 04:53 PM
10/12/15 04:53 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302 Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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You want a fresh reliable engine with an investment towards reliability and simplicity. A balanced lightweight 360 can take you A LONG way in parking lots. I went Gen III because a deal fell in my lap. I also want decent fuel mileage and the ability to take 2000 mile road trips. All those things can be had in a 360 for almost pennies on the dollar.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Supercharged or Stroked 360
[Re: MuuMuu101]
#1930975
10/12/15 06:41 PM
10/12/15 06:41 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 801 central CT
cudazappa
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 801
central CT
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As I shared in Rylis' thread, I'm a proponent of a stock stroke 360. A basic rebuild with Eddy heads will give you more power than you need for a beginner. If I were in your shoes, I'd stay with the iron heads and just freshen up the motor with a cam and intake. Lots of bang for the buck in J heads. If the heads require work, go with a set of out of the box edelbrocks. K.I.S.S. It'll be cheaper, easier to maintain, more reliable, and you'll have less down time. The more exotic you go, the longer it will take to complete and swallow cubic dollars. I built my 360 up over 3 years as I bought parts as budget/deals allowed. Externally balanced (B&M flexplate for converter) KB Hyperuetectic pistons Hughes Stage 1 Eddy Heads Hughes custom grind cam, lifters, pushrods, and rockers Eddy Air Gap Quick Fuel 750 Slayer (started with a 670 Avenger but it wouldn't run right) This motor is a torque monster that Hughes helped me build for autocross. I am very happy with it. However, the Hughes top end was more than half the cost of the build and was one of those "might as wells" as I knew I wasn't going to be single much longer. I probably could have gotten 90% of where I am with more traditional components, and saved a bunch of money. However, since I needed decent heads, I still would've gotten the Edelbrock's. Just maybe not ported.
1971 Challenger
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Re: Supercharged or Stroked 360
[Re: MuuMuu101]
#1931489
10/13/15 04:15 PM
10/13/15 04:15 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442 NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
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MuuMuu -- forget the supercharger... it adds too much weight up front where you DON'T want it for any handling intended car (AX in particular).
SB with aluminum heads... stroke it if more wide-spread torque is needed. Keep it light up front.
Last edited by Mopar Mitch; 10/13/15 04:16 PM.
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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Re: Supercharged or Stroked 360
[Re: MuuMuu101]
#1931955
10/14/15 12:33 PM
10/14/15 12:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 321 Massachusetts
Sneke_Eyez
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 321
Massachusetts
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Interesting to read through all of this as I think of building a motor for my wagoon which I'd like to occasionally autocross, but mainly just street drive as often as possible.
I'm currently considering a 360 Magnum loosely based on the recent build that Mopar Action did. I've been looking for decent mileage 2WD Rams and Ram Vans to scavenge the motor and OD tranny out of and then the rest will be based on cost from there.
I likely won't build it with EFI right off the bat, but if FITech turns out to be cost effective, I might do it that way. Their systems seem pretty good to me.
Last edited by Sneke_Eyez; 10/14/15 12:33 PM.
1969 Satellite Wagon - G3 Hemi Swap Incoming. | 1969 Coronet Post Coupe. 2002 Intrepid ES | 2009 Ram SLT | 2004 300M Special | 2002 300M Pro Am - Hers
Are you a New England Mopar Enthusiast? Come check out the revived NorthEast Mighty Mopar at www.northeastmightymopar.com!
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Re: Supercharged or Stroked 360
[Re: MuuMuu101]
#1931956
10/14/15 12:35 PM
10/14/15 12:35 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889 up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
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As my son would say, derp.
Build the blower motor, if it's too much power for the course PULL THE BELT OFF. Best of both worlds.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: Supercharged or Stroked 360
[Re: Supercuda]
#1932532
10/15/15 11:56 AM
10/15/15 11:56 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468 So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
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As my son would say, derp.
Build the blower motor, if it's too much power for the course PULL THE BELT OFF. Best of both worlds. It's already built. He bought a complete air cleaner to oil pan tuning driving setup. All he has to do is install it and start driving
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Re: Supercharged or Stroked 360
[Re: MuuMuu101]
#1932672
10/15/15 04:09 PM
10/15/15 04:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,785 Utah and Alaska
astjp2
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,785
Utah and Alaska
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I would rather have a positive displacement supercharger over a centrifugal, less heat, more power.
1941 Taylorcraft 1968 Charger 1994 Wrangler 1998 Wrangler 2008 Kia Rio 2017 Jetta
I didn't do 4 years and 9 months of Graduate School to be called Mister!
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Re: Supercharged or Stroked 360
[Re: Supercuda]
#1932824
10/15/15 09:49 PM
10/15/15 09:49 PM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375 SoCal
MuuMuu101
OP
I got lucky at Woodward!
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OP
I got lucky at Woodward!
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375
SoCal
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Did he not say it needs going thru and should he stroke it or go with the blower? I did say that. Again, throwing it in there means getting another hood which I don't want to do.
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Re: Supercharged or Stroked 360
[Re: MuuMuu101]
#1932831
10/15/15 10:00 PM
10/15/15 10:00 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,664 On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
amxautox
Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
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Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,664
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
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Eddy 625-650 4bbl and Performer intake. Leave the internals and heads alone. Install engine. Drive it and autocross it for a summer. Learn the car. Then next winter hop it up by stroking. Don't want, and don't need the blower for autocross.
Tom
"Everyone should believe in something; I believe I'll go fishing."
-Henry David Thoreau
Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths
author unknown
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Re: Supercharged or Stroked 360
[Re: MuuMuu101]
#1932842
10/15/15 10:24 PM
10/15/15 10:24 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302 Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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What intake is on it now an M1 Single plane? An RPM is probably an inch shorter I bet. Drop base air cleaner and go.
Last edited by 72Swinger; 10/15/15 10:25 PM.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Supercharged or Stroked 360
[Re: MuuMuu101]
#1933258
10/16/15 03:16 PM
10/16/15 03:16 PM
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 380 Escondido CA USA
Tomswheels
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 380
Escondido CA USA
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I think Samy already knows what I think, but after flogging my Valiant at Optima, my first recommendation is reliability. Some of my competitors were having overheating issues in the 105 degree heat, and there is nothing more frustrating. Next I like simplicity, the Borgeson box, the TTI shorty headers on a small block made the car not only easy to build, but easy to work on, and surprisingly great handling. I'm all for newer technology, if fitting a newgen Hemi was not cost/time prohibitive, and didn't add a bunch of weight, sure why not. After racing the Valiant all year, the ideal combo for me would be an aluminum or IMM headed stroker, with a Passon 5 speed.
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Re: Supercharged or Stroked 360
[Re: Tomswheels]
#1933504
10/16/15 10:47 PM
10/16/15 10:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468 So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
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I think Samy already knows what I think, but after flogging my Valiant at Optima, my first recommendation is reliability. Some of my competitors were having overheating issues in the 105 degree heat, and there is nothing more frustrating. Next I like simplicity, the Borgeson box, the TTI shorty headers on a small block made the car not only easy to build, but easy to work on, and surprisingly great handling. I'm all for newer technology, if fitting a newgen Hemi was not cost/time prohibitive, and didn't add a bunch of weight, sure why not. After racing the Valiant all year, the ideal combo for me would be an aluminum or IMM headed stroker, with a Passon 5 speed. That's what I have. But I will cheap out and eventually go just 4 speed.... a no frills aluminum headed 419 stroker from a kit I bought from IMM. No real fancy parts, F/I, etc. A cam everyone says is too small. A $130 used M1 single plane to kill a little low speed torque and hopefully? add some high speed HP and TQ. With a $80 used Edelbrock RPM to try if I want. I got about 8,000 care free miles on it. I adjust the solid lifters, but someone could just spec a hyd cam and get a tick less rpm out of it. The one place where I tried to be cute and make a spreadbore into a squarebore carb flange, I got stinged. It cost me a intake and exhaust gasket, valve lapping compound, and my free labor. But I though the Supercharged motor Samy got from the green Redline Valiant was good to go. If it needs hood clearance, add a scoop, bubble, whatever. It is what it is.
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Re: Supercharged or Stroked 360
[Re: autoxcuda]
#1933644
10/17/15 02:19 AM
10/17/15 02:19 AM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375 SoCal
MuuMuu101
OP
I got lucky at Woodward!
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OP
I got lucky at Woodward!
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375
SoCal
|
I think Samy already knows what I think, but after flogging my Valiant at Optima, my first recommendation is reliability. Some of my competitors were having overheating issues in the 105 degree heat, and there is nothing more frustrating. Next I like simplicity, the Borgeson box, the TTI shorty headers on a small block made the car not only easy to build, but easy to work on, and surprisingly great handling. I'm all for newer technology, if fitting a newgen Hemi was not cost/time prohibitive, and didn't add a bunch of weight, sure why not. After racing the Valiant all year, the ideal combo for me would be an aluminum or IMM headed stroker, with a Passon 5 speed. That's what I have. But I will cheap out and eventually go just 4 speed.... a no frills aluminum headed 419 stroker from a kit I bought from IMM. No real fancy parts, F/I, etc. A cam everyone says is too small. A $130 used M1 single plane to kill a little low speed torque and hopefully? add some high speed HP and TQ. With a $80 used Edelbrock RPM to try if I want. I got about 8,000 care free miles on it. I adjust the solid lifters, but someone could just spec a hyd cam and get a tick less rpm out of it. The one place where I tried to be cute and make a spreadbore into a squarebore carb flange, I got stinged. It cost me a intake and exhaust gasket, valve lapping compound, and my free labor. But I though the Supercharged motor Samy got from the green Redline Valiant was good to go. If it needs hood clearance, add a scoop, bubble, whatever. It is what it is. The engine was bought from the get go knowing it would need to be gone through and at the very least making an intake change to something that would fit under the hood. I posed the question to see if it would be better to go a stroker (or stock stroke) since the engine will be taken apart anyways. As said before, a hood scoop is out of the question.
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