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Re: Trick Flow heads [Re: AndyF] #1931615
10/13/15 08:16 PM
10/13/15 08:16 PM
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PA.
pittsburghracer Offline
"Little"John
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"Little"John

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PA.


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: Trick Flow heads [Re: AndyF] #1931645
10/13/15 09:10 PM
10/13/15 09:10 PM
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Posts: 5,486
SoCal
Brian Hafliger Offline
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SoCal
Originally Posted By AndyF
Yep, head flow numbers don't mean a ton to me unless there is a way to really document everything. I found this out years ago on my own bench when I played around with head placement over the cylinder. It is easy to pick up some cfm my moving the intake over closer to the center of the bore. I finally built a fixture with dowel pins so the head was always in the same location on the bore. I also machined up a radius plate that I used on all heads. Once I did that I was able to start getting repeatable results.

There were some guys on SpeedTalk a while back who had a test fixture which they sent from guy to guy so everyone could calibrate their benches to the same fixture. Something like that makes sense for people who are working back and forth a bunch.


I participated in the flow-around on speedtalk a few years ago...results were very interesting.
I always wanted to know how my bench compared to Meaux's and found out it's just a tad lower than his.
We first tested flow plates, then tested an AFR BBC 385 head using supplied head, valves and radius plate, then tested a ProComp cnc ported SBC head with supplied valves and radius plate.
We were also told what bore size to flow at, and if we didn't have that size to include the size we used...
Brian


Brian Hafliger
Re: Trick Flow heads [Re: fast68plymouth] #1931671
10/13/15 09:48 PM
10/13/15 09:48 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 77
British Columbia Canada
Challenger340 Offline
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British Columbia Canada
A Flowbench never has been, nor ever will be a Dynomometer.
And as I am quite sure we all know, it is just a "tool" to measure gains or losses in one particular area.
I don't discuss "flow" on the internet.... way too many variables not just in benchs, but in methodologies, which ALL can affect results.

THANKS to ALL of you here for posting your results, from ALL locations, very informative and much appreciated.


Better to be a "has been" than a "never was".
Re: Trick Flow heads [Re: Challenger340] #1931682
10/13/15 10:04 PM
10/13/15 10:04 PM
Joined: Dec 2013
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Wichita
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GY3 Offline
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Originally Posted By Challenger340
A Flowbench never has been, nor ever will be a Dynomometer.
And as I am quite sure we all know, it is just a "tool" to measure gains or losses in one particular area.
I don't discuss "flow" on the internet.... way too many variables not just in benchs, but in methodologies, which ALL can affect results.

THANKS to ALL of you here for posting your results, from ALL locations, very informative and much appreciated.


On the other hand, utilizing flow numbers from a KNOWN flow bench that has shown on track results that back up those flow numbers is never a bad thing!

Dwayne's numbers have always been spot-on IMO!

I like to see real world numbers vs.the inflated numbers that EVERY manufacturer publishes. Edelbrock, 440Source, Indy. They all publish ridiculous numbers.

Having the same Flowbench flow multiple different manufacturers not only gives a good comparison but shows how different heads shake out at different lifts. Invaluable information!

Re: Trick Flow heads [Re: Brian Hafliger] #1931750
10/14/15 12:02 AM
10/14/15 12:02 AM
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Oregon
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AndyF Offline
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Oregon
That is cool, I didn't know you participated in that flow around. I didn't participate since I'm a bit of hack when it comes to the flow bench. I just have a weeny 110 bench and it is only set up for BB Mopar heads.

Re: Trick Flow heads [Re: fast68plymouth] #1931753
10/14/15 12:06 AM
10/14/15 12:06 AM
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Oregon
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AndyF Offline
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Oregon
My first set of TF heads showed up today and I figured out a couple of things. First of all they need 10x of the longer 5.000 inch head studs. That is a common part number but until TF or ARP build a kit you'll have to source your own. Same stud that is used in the B1 kit so if you have a spare B1 head stud kit laying around you can rob them from it. If you're building your own head stud kit I'd order 24 of the 2.725 short stud from ARP. The 2.725 stud fits better than the standard 2.750 stud that they use in their kits. The 2.725 stud screws in further and clears the header flange.

Even more interesting is the fact that the rocker shaft studs need to be all short ones. No long ones required. I used 10x of the 2.500 ARP stud and it worked just fine.

5000.jpg.JPG
Re: Trick Flow heads [Re: AndyF] #1931959
10/14/15 12:50 PM
10/14/15 12:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,247
Mt. Vernon, Ohio
dartman366 Offline
I Live Here
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Mt. Vernon, Ohio
Originally Posted By AndyF
My first set of TF heads showed up today and I figured out a couple of things. First of all they need 10x of the longer 5.000 inch head studs. That is a common part number but until TF or ARP build a kit you'll have to source your own. Same stud that is used in the B1 kit so if you have a spare B1 head stud kit laying around you can rob them from it. If you're building your own head stud kit I'd order 24 of the 2.725 short stud from ARP. The 2.725 stud fits better than the standard 2.750 stud that they use in their kits. The 2.725 stud screws in further and clears the header flange.

Even more interesting is the fact that the rocker shaft studs need to be all short ones. No long ones required. I used 10x of the 2.500 ARP stud and it worked just fine.
Good info guys, keep it coming as I am ordering my set when I get home from Sweden.


Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.
Re: Trick Flow heads [Re: AndyF] #1931966
10/14/15 01:08 PM
10/14/15 01:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,543
USA
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hudsonhornet7x Offline
pro stock
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USA
Originally Posted By AndyF
My first set of TF heads showed up today and I figured out a couple of things. First of all they need 10x of the longer 5.000 inch head studs. That is a common part number but until TF or ARP build a kit you'll have to source your own. Same stud that is used in the B1 kit so if you have a spare B1 head stud kit laying around you can rob them from it. If you're building your own head stud kit I'd order 24 of the 2.725 short stud from ARP. The 2.725 stud fits better than the standard 2.750 stud that they use in their kits. The 2.725 stud screws in further and clears the header flange.

Even more interesting is the fact that the rocker shaft studs need to be all short ones. No long ones required. I used 10x of the 2.500 ARP stud and it worked just fine.


Excellent reply, and what a refreshing thread to read. Nice to see some technical things being dicussed.

Andy- when can we expect you to delve into the Gen III hemi stuff? A book from you would be an awesome thing!

Re: Trick Flow heads [Re: fast68plymouth] #1931969
10/14/15 01:10 PM
10/14/15 01:10 PM
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long time lurker, short time p...
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mopar
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So, between the two running posts on these heads, here's what I'd use as a check list for new Trick Flow head purchasers
1. Get guide clearance checked and corrected as needed
2. Get valve seat contact pattern checked and corrected as needed
3. Replace titanium retainers, if equipped, with tool steel retainers for street use
4. Fill in stupid square holes in head surface with JB Weld

Nice heads, but not looking like "just take them out of the box and bolt them on" from what I see

Also
5. Buy ARP Edelbrock Victor head bolt kit (I'm not a studs guy)
6. Buy set of ten ARP "short" rocker shaft studs and hardware
7. Rockers? Not sure what I'd use at this point, but there's got to be a better option than a $900 set of Harland Sharps

Yeah, just my 2 cents

Re: Trick Flow heads [Re: AndyF] #1931975
10/14/15 01:27 PM
10/14/15 01:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,513
So. Burlington, Vt.
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fast68plymouth Offline OP
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I'm surprised ARP doesn't offer a stud kit for the Victor heads yet. I would have thought there would have been enough demand for it that they would have issued a part number for it.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Trick Flow heads [Re: fast68plymouth] #1932000
10/14/15 02:00 PM
10/14/15 02:00 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 485
Central California
MoParFish Offline
mopar
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Central California
Originally Posted By fast68plymouth
I'm surprised ARP doesn't offer a stud kit for the Victor heads yet. I would have thought there would have been enough demand for it that they would have issued a part number for it.
Thanks for posting all the good info and pics Dwayne! Yeah, us Victor guys are left to fend for ourselves sometimes. A stud kit would be great but only after the center rocker stand thread inserts are sunk deeper into the head so the center stands don't break off shock... I preemptively pulled the factory Heli-coils out and drilled, tapped and installed new inserts about 1.0 inch further into head as other Victor guys have. Saw it here on Moparts thumbs


Sworn Member Central Valley MoPar Drag Pack. You can reach me at (done-et-chasing@going-rounds.gone)... :-)

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Re: Trick Flow heads [Re: fast68plymouth] #1932005
10/14/15 02:14 PM
10/14/15 02:14 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 760
Canada
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CTD5.9 Offline
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Canada
Would the ARP 145-4012 stud kit work with these? it is for the B1 but also what I used on my Victors as per Hughes recommendations.

Re: Trick Flow heads [Re: fast68plymouth] #1932252
10/14/15 09:45 PM
10/14/15 09:45 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 732
eastern,Ky
70RT Charger Offline
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70RT Charger  Offline
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Posts: 732
eastern,Ky
Originally Posted By fast68plymouth
Then you put a head gasket on the head, located by the dowel pin holes, and then I go......... Hmmmmm work
First pic is a Cometic, second is the TF recommended Fel-Pro 1009.
The Fel-Pro is right at the edge of the square. I put some bluing on the head and scribed where the end of the head gasket lays.
I'm thinking there's gonna be a little leak here if you don't do something about it.
I also have a Victor graphite faced gasket here that was wide enough in this area that it would probably seal this off okay, but the gasket fire ring was ever so slightly inside the chambers in a few areas.
IMO, for the next batch of castings, TF should just fill these squares in. There is one at each end of the head, and they both have this same issue.
Got a call from TF and they are listening because I brought up the these holes and they are going correct this problem in the next castings. They told me if I had my heads and hadn't put them on send them back but if I wanted to use them just fill the holes in with right stuff. He said they had done alot of testing and assured me they were good but they wanted to go ahead and fill the holes in. If you guys have any ideas and suggestions to make to TF I suggest you call them because they are trying hard to make us a very good head.

Last edited by 70RT Charger; 10/14/15 09:47 PM.
Re: Trick Flow heads [Re: 70RT Charger] #1932263
10/14/15 09:59 PM
10/14/15 09:59 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,318
Prospect, PA
BSB67 Offline
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Originally Posted By 70RT Charger
Originally Posted By fast68plymouth
Then you put a head gasket on the head, located by the dowel pin holes, and then I go......... Hmmmmm work
First pic is a Cometic, second is the TF recommended Fel-Pro 1009.
The Fel-Pro is right at the edge of the square. I put some bluing on the head and scribed where the end of the head gasket lays.
I'm thinking there's gonna be a little leak here if you don't do something about it.
I also have a Victor graphite faced gasket here that was wide enough in this area that it would probably seal this off okay, but the gasket fire ring was ever so slightly inside the chambers in a few areas.
IMO, for the next batch of castings, TF should just fill these squares in. There is one at each end of the head, and they both have this same issue.
Got a call from TF and they are listening because I brought up the these holes and they are going correct this problem in the next castings. They told me if I had my heads and hadn't put them on send them back but if I wanted to use them just fill the holes in with right stuff. He said they had done alot of testing and assured me they were good but they wanted to go ahead and fill the holes in. If you guys have any ideas and suggestions to make to TF I suggest you call them because they are trying hard to make us a very good head.


FWIW, the Eddy RPM have a couple casting pockets in the head mounting surface too. Theses actually go edge on edge with the block water passage, and would appear to be a real potential for a water leak, but they don't seem to, and nobody seems to care either.

Re: Trick Flow heads [Re: BSB67] #1932468
10/15/15 07:32 AM
10/15/15 07:32 AM
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eastern,Ky
70RT Charger Offline
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That's why I'm buying a set of these heads off of TF. They obviously do care.

Re: Trick Flow heads [Re: 70RT Charger] #1932545
10/15/15 12:20 PM
10/15/15 12:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,247
Mt. Vernon, Ohio
dartman366 Offline
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Mt. Vernon, Ohio
Originally Posted By 70RT Charger
That's why I'm buying a set of these heads off of TF. They obviously do care.
And reading this makes me more re assured that I am making the right selection.


Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.
Re: Trick Flow heads [Re: 70RT Charger] #1932551
10/15/15 12:30 PM
10/15/15 12:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
B
BradH Offline
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Val-haul-ass... eventually
Quote:
If you guys have any ideas and suggestions to make to TF...


Well, here's a start, courtesy of a post from earlier:
Quote:

1. Get guide clearance checked and corrected as needed
2. Get valve seat contact pattern checked and corrected as needed
3. Replace titanium retainers, if equipped, with tool steel retainers for street use << or switch to springs w/o dampers if you're going to still use ti retainers - Brad >>
4. Fill in stupid square holes in head surface

Re: Trick Flow heads [Re: fast68plymouth] #1932554
10/15/15 12:31 PM
10/15/15 12:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,513
So. Burlington, Vt.
F
fast68plymouth Offline OP
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Russ, actually I know of several people who had problems with the earlier casting Edelbrocks leaking coolant from that area after they had been in service a while. After it was discovered Edelbrock filled in most of that recess to eliminate that issue.

I'm happy to hear TF is listening and is planning on filling in the squares.
On the heads I had here, if you wanted to use a Cometic gasket you absolutely would have had to fill in the squares since those gaskets didn't seal off either side of the square. It just created an open path from the valley to the outside of the engine.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: Trick Flow heads [Re: fast68plymouth] #1932600
10/15/15 02:05 PM
10/15/15 02:05 PM
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Posts: 31,061
Oregon
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AndyF Offline
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Oregon
Dwayne, have you taken a look at how much valve lift a guy can run with these heads? It looks to me that .750 is easy right out the box with a spring change. Not sure if they'll go 0.800 lift or not but it looks really close. I think a set of Manley 221420 springs will fit in there and they should go 0.800 lift at 2.00 installed height.

Re: Trick Flow heads [Re: BradH] #1932837
10/15/15 10:17 PM
10/15/15 10:17 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 732
eastern,Ky
70RT Charger Offline
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Posts: 732
eastern,Ky
Originally Posted By BradH
Quote:
If you guys have any ideas and suggestions to make to TF...


Well, here's a start, courtesy of a post from earlier:
Quote:

1. Get guide clearance checked and corrected as needed
2. Get valve seat contact pattern checked and corrected as needed
3. Replace titanium retainers, if equipped, with tool steel retainers for street use << or switch to springs w/o dampers if you're going to still use ti retainers - Brad >>
4. Fill in stupid square holes in head surface

Has somebody made this call to TF yet and let them know instead of getting on here and complaining? I thought the the ti retainers were an option and the heads already came with steel retainers?

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