Re: Cross Bolted Main Conversion
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1907910
09/07/15 09:52 AM
09/07/15 09:52 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 685 pennsylvania
poboyengineering
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 685
pennsylvania
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I like the 4 bolt caps... will it STOP cap walk... no but it does stabilize the cap better... but the cap is still bending/bouncing to give you the cap walk... thats weight and/or detonation... I have 1 SB that has 4 bolt mains(not cross bolted) and I like that block.. it has shown to be good over the years.. the outer bolts are 3/8 but the caps are massive.... billet steel EDIT looks like you might have to grind the side washers to clear the pan(just guessing on that.. but looks close) I have a similar block. Don't know whose caps they are, but it uses 3/8ths bolts also. Do you know the torque sequence and spec for these caps?
It may be ugly, but it sure is slow.
Girls comb their hair in rear view mirrors and the boys try to look so hard....
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Re: Cross Bolted Main Conversion
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1907914
09/07/15 10:08 AM
09/07/15 10:08 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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I have tried using a girdle. Didn't work for me. Now I will see what happens when I increase the cap strength. I haven't tried aluminum caps yet. I have a hard time understanding how they would stop cap walk. I think it may be making it harder to detect. But I do intend to try some in the future. They DON'T.........nothing does Monte was surprisingly terse in his reply, but the benefit of the aluminum main cap (as he has explained before) is that it absorbs some of the shock transferred to the cap that a steel cap will pass on to the block. Think of the rebound difference when striking a metal object with a dead-blow hammer vs a normal hammer.
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Re: Cross Bolted Main Conversion
[Re: poboyengineering]
#1907933
09/07/15 10:41 AM
09/07/15 10:41 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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I like the 4 bolt caps... will it STOP cap walk... no but it does stabilize the cap better... but the cap is still bending/bouncing to give you the cap walk... thats weight and/or detonation... I have 1 SB that has 4 bolt mains(not cross bolted) and I like that block.. it has shown to be good over the years.. the outer bolts are 3/8 but the caps are massive.... billet steel EDIT looks like you might have to grind the side washers to clear the pan(just guessing on that.. but looks close) I have a similar block. Don't know whose caps they are, but it uses 3/8ths bolts also. Do you know the torque sequence and spec for these caps? I tighten up the big mains first to the spec then I use 45# on the 3/8.. I have the ARP main studs so I use that spec for them EDIT mine also have 3/16" dowl pins in them for alignment and maybe it helps other things.. I dont know
Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 09/07/15 10:45 AM.
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Re: Cross Bolted Main Conversion
[Re: BradH]
#1908035
09/07/15 01:32 PM
09/07/15 01:32 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 23,615 Here
jcc
No soup for you!!!
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No soup for you!!!
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 23,615
Here
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I have tried using a girdle. Didn't work for me. Now I will see what happens when I increase the cap strength. I haven't tried aluminum caps yet. I have a hard time understanding how they would stop cap walk. I think it may be making it harder to detect. But I do intend to try some in the future. They DON'T.........nothing does Monte was surprisingly terse in his reply, but the benefit of the aluminum main cap (as he has explained before) is that it absorbs some of the shock transferred to the cap that a steel cap will pass on to the block. Think of the rebound difference when striking a metal object with a dead-blow hammer vs a normal hammer. I have over the years many times questioned the engineering merits of the typical girdle. It was never clear as wimpy as they are, as to what stiffness they really provided. The only explanation ever offered that might make some sense, which I have no way to verify, is if the crank is weak, and it flexes under extreme load with every revolution, it would want to, in the explainer's words, rock the cap(s) front and rear, and since the girdle is mounted the farthest distance from the crank on top of the cap, the girdle would reduce the cap from rocking, which maybe the same as "cap walk". The alum explanation for reducing harmonics makes some sense to me, but if alum is moving/flexing, it is slowly reducing its fatigue life.
I'm with Helmuth Hübener, and no soup is being served today.
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Re: Cross Bolted Main Conversion
[Re: ChevyTS]
#1908059
09/07/15 02:11 PM
09/07/15 02:11 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890 North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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What we all refer to as "cap walk" is really not that at all. What we have is a lack of clamping force and that lets the cap "bounce" and is what creates the fretting on the faces. As myself and others have stated, you even see this on iron Mega-Blocks, that have ductile caps and are cross bolted. These blocks are actually MADE for the cross bolt cap, like the HEMI, yet does not eliminate the issue. So the thoughts of an aftermarket cap, placed in a block that was NOT designed to do that, is not going to stop it either. The better blocks survive the issue better.......because, well, they are BETTER blocks, but the problem itself is NOT gone. Girdles, cross bolts and all the other stuff, that are an attempt to "lock the cap down" simply don't work. Now do they help?........that's all a matter of speculation.
Do the aluminum caps "fix" the issue?.......absolutely not, but it is my impression and others, that alum absorbs some of the movement and puts less stress on the main webs. Again, NOT a fix, just another form of bandaid.
So how do you "fix" the cap bounce........in a factory design B block, the simple answer is you don't. Your only hope is that the block is beefy enough to take it and that design includes Mega-Blocks, HEMI blocks and so forth. So how COULD it be fixed? In my opinion, that would take a total redesign of the bottom end, with much larger and beefier main webs, bigger studs and enough material to accept a splayed angle, 4 bolt cap like other brands
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Re: Cross Bolted Main Conversion
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1908136
09/07/15 04:14 PM
09/07/15 04:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,243 Charlotte, North Carolina
sgcuda
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,243
Charlotte, North Carolina
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What we all refer to as "cap walk" is really not that at all. What we have is a lack of clamping force and that lets the cap "bounce" and is what creates the fretting on the faces. Never thought of it that way. So the rotational side forces from the crank and rods is actually trying to push out of the journal bores at a given point in rotation. A side to side push would also explain how the block webbing cracks. Maybe the aluminum caps already have a better "preload" when clamped down, and springs back a further distance than steel, which is why there is a higher resistance to evidence of cap walk. Lighter components (rods, crank counterweights) would lessen the damaging side forces. If this is correct, then my next question is: How much can you rifle drill the center of a rod journal before you compromise strength?
[image][/image]
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Re: Cross Bolted Main Conversion
[Re: BradH]
#1908149
09/07/15 04:48 PM
09/07/15 04:48 PM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,318 State of confusion
Thumperdart
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,318
State of confusion
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I have tried using a girdle. Didn't work for me. Now I will see what happens when I increase the cap strength. I haven't tried aluminum caps yet. I have a hard time understanding how they would stop cap walk. I think it may be making it harder to detect. But I do intend to try some in the future. They DON'T.........nothing does Monte was surprisingly terse in his reply, but the benefit of the aluminum main cap (as he has explained before) is that it absorbs some of the shock transferred to the cap that a steel cap will pass on to the block. Think of the rebound difference when striking a metal object with a dead-blow hammer vs a normal hammer. That`s what THEY say but what about the expansion and contracting deal being alum. in an iron block.......
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
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Re: Cross Bolted Main Conversion
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1908184
09/07/15 05:57 PM
09/07/15 05:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 622 sing sing
unknown
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 622
sing sing
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What we all refer to as "cap walk" is really not that at all. What we have is a lack of clamping force and that lets the cap "bounce" and is what creates the fretting on the faces. As myself and others have stated, you even see this on iron Mega-Blocks, that have ductile caps and are cross bolted. These blocks are actually MADE for the cross bolt cap, like the HEMI, yet does not eliminate the issue. So the thoughts of an aftermarket cap, placed in a block that was NOT designed to do that, is not going to stop it either. The better blocks survive the issue better.......because, well, they are BETTER blocks, but the problem itself is NOT gone. Girdles, cross bolts and all the other stuff, that are an attempt to "lock the cap down" simply don't work. Now do they help?........that's all a matter of speculation.
Do the aluminum caps "fix" the issue?.......absolutely not, but it is my impression and others, that alum absorbs some of the movement and puts less stress on the main webs. Again, NOT a fix, just another form of bandaid.
So how do you "fix" the cap bounce........in a factory design B block, the simple answer is you don't. Your only hope is that the block is beefy enough to take it and that design includes Mega-Blocks, HEMI blocks and so forth. So how COULD it be fixed? In my opinion, that would take a total redesign of the bottom end, with much larger and beefier main webs, bigger studs and enough material to accept a splayed angle, 4 bolt cap like other brands The cross bolt mains must not be to bad of a design, lots of OEM have gone that route. Ford Chevy. Im pretty sure the TFX block still has cross bolted mains,a few more bolts of course.
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Re: Cross Bolted Main Conversion
[Re: ChevyTS]
#1908192
09/07/15 06:10 PM
09/07/15 06:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,248 Plymouth, MI
Blusmbl
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,248
Plymouth, MI
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Both Ford mod motors and the LS series engines have 4 bolt caps + 2 crossbolts. Chrysler's 3rd gen Hemi is only 2 bolt with crossbolting but the main webs appear to be stronger than a B/RB engine.
'18 Ford Raptor, random motorcycles, 1968 Plymouth Fury III - 11.37 @ 118
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Re: Cross Bolted Main Conversion
[Re: Thumperdart]
#1908210
09/07/15 06:40 PM
09/07/15 06:40 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890 North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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I have tried using a girdle. Didn't work for me. Now I will see what happens when I increase the cap strength. I haven't tried aluminum caps yet. I have a hard time understanding how they would stop cap walk. I think it may be making it harder to detect. But I do intend to try some in the future. They DON'T.........nothing does Monte was surprisingly terse in his reply, but the benefit of the aluminum main cap (as he has explained before) is that it absorbs some of the shock transferred to the cap that a steel cap will pass on to the block. Think of the rebound difference when striking a metal object with a dead-blow hammer vs a normal hammer. That`s what THEY say but what about the expansion and contracting deal being alum. in an iron block....... Most all alum blocks have steel caps
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Re: Cross Bolted Main Conversion
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1908257
09/07/15 07:55 PM
09/07/15 07:55 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 576 Texas
ChevyTS
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 576
Texas
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Well the good thing is we can all agree that the main caps need to be upgraded. I'm not trying to promote any system of doing that. I view this as a learning PROCESS! First off think about what cap walk is. Under a load the main cap is forced down. This caused the sides to pull in. No longer held tight by the register the cap can move around. We see the same elongation happen in a connecting rod. Rod bearings are designed to allow for this. Think of the cap register as more of a way to preload the cap. This is why blocks with loose registers have more cap movement. Mopar blocks are not the only ones that suffer from cap movement. Ask a machinist how they fix the problem in other blocks and most of them will say that they use a stronger cap and force them tighter into the register. Think about this as well. Have you ever seen aluminum caps used to increase strength on any other engine block??? (again not saying they are a bad investment) I trust the machinist that have worked before me. Someone had to be the first to use aluminum caps and I'm sure they had a good reason. I just don't think they made that reason clear. I do intend to use aluminum caps in the future. For now I'm testing the cross bolted caps. After doing the machine work to install the caps I do not feel that I have removed any material to weaken the block. The cross bolts are 5/16 and they torque to 24 ft.lb. Just enough to help support the register.
T & K Performance
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Re: Cross Bolted Main Conversion
[Re: ChevyTS]
#1908270
09/07/15 08:24 PM
09/07/15 08:24 PM
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 220
Jerry Kathe
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 220
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Well the good thing is we can all agree that the main caps need to be upgraded. I'm not trying to promote any system of doing that. I view this as a learning PROCESS! First off think about what cap walk is. Under a load the main cap is forced down. This caused the sides to pull in. No longer held tight by the register the cap can move around. We see the same elongation happen in a connecting rod. Rod bearings are designed to allow for this. Think of the cap register as more of a way to preload the cap. This is why blocks with loose registers have more cap movement. Mopar blocks are not the only ones that suffer from cap movement. Ask a machinist how they fix the problem in other blocks and most of them will say that they use a stronger cap and force them tighter into the register. Think about this as well. Have you ever seen aluminum caps used to increase strength on any other engine block??? (again not saying they are a bad investment) I trust the machinist that have worked before me. Someone had to be the first to use aluminum caps and I'm sure they had a good reason. I just don't think they made that reason clear. I do intend to use aluminum caps in the future. For now I'm testing the cross bolted caps. After doing the machine work to install the caps I do not feel that I have removed any material to weaken the block. The cross bolts are 5/16 and they torque to 24 ft.lb. Just enough to help support the register. I still follow another belief….aluminum caps DO work as a SHOCK absorber, but only allow more dimensional shift with the main bores when stressed - shifting the fall out to the crankshaft…..Best fix for getting all you can from a oem block @ 750 – 800 hp and get reasonable life? ……get rid of harmonics….or as much of it as you can. Cap chatter is a vibratory frequency that actually transfers material from one surface to another, the bounce that is mentioned. This vibratory frequency is as much or more of the problem than anything else. The clearance with the registers is definitely important and once this cap walk problem generates, the registers will only get more clearance....blocks fail and ect. A stock block, professionally machined with a good set of studs (properly installed), NO FILL and even stock caps.....yep......stock caps......have made many, many laps over many, many years doing this without ONE failure. A couple hundred passes were also made on a throttle stop killing ALL throttle at .001 - .01 out…..nothing worse on hammering the bottom end than that.
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Re: Cross Bolted Main Conversion
[Re: ChevyTS]
#1908279
09/07/15 08:39 PM
09/07/15 08:39 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,120 MN
JERICOGTX
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,120
MN
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The aluminum caps were worth 5 lbs off the front of the car. I think I heard some older Cadillac iron blocks came with aluminum main caps?
69 GTX
68 Road Runner
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Re: Cross Bolted Main Conversion
[Re: Thumperdart]
#1908320
09/07/15 09:20 PM
09/07/15 09:20 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 576 Texas
ChevyTS
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 576
Texas
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Was just stating my curiosity about the different metals expansion rates and figured it would have to influence bearing clearances somehow but maybe not...... That may be part of the reason they use them. If they expand faster they should register tighter as the rest of the engine is coming up to temp???/
T & K Performance
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