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Re: Cross Bolted Main Conversion [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1907910
09/07/15 09:52 AM
09/07/15 09:52 AM
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Posts: 685
pennsylvania
poboyengineering Offline
mopar
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Originally Posted By MR_P_BODY
I like the 4 bolt caps... will it STOP cap walk... no
but it does stabilize the cap better... but the cap is
still bending/bouncing to give you the cap walk... thats
weight and/or detonation... I have 1 SB that has 4 bolt
mains(not cross bolted) and I like that block.. it has
shown to be good over the years.. the outer bolts are 3/8
but the caps are massive.... billet steel
EDIT
looks like you might have to grind the side washers
to clear the pan(just guessing on that.. but looks close)
wave


I have a similar block. Don't know whose caps they are, but it uses 3/8ths bolts also. Do you know the torque sequence and spec for these caps?


It may be ugly, but it sure is slow.

Girls comb their hair in rear view mirrors and the boys try to look so hard....
Re: Cross Bolted Main Conversion [Re: Monte_Smith] #1907914
09/07/15 10:08 AM
09/07/15 10:08 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Taking time off to work on my car
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Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
Originally Posted By ChevyTS
I have tried using a girdle. Didn't work for me. Now I will see what happens when I increase the cap strength. I haven't tried aluminum caps yet. I have a hard time understanding how they would stop cap walk. I think it may be making it harder to detect. But I do intend to try some in the future.
They DON'T.........nothing does

Monte was surprisingly terse in his reply, but the benefit of the aluminum main cap (as he has explained before) is that it absorbs some of the shock transferred to the cap that a steel cap will pass on to the block. Think of the rebound difference when striking a metal object with a dead-blow hammer vs a normal hammer. hammer

Re: Cross Bolted Main Conversion [Re: poboyengineering] #1907933
09/07/15 10:41 AM
09/07/15 10:41 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
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Romeo MI
Originally Posted By poboyengineering
Originally Posted By MR_P_BODY
I like the 4 bolt caps... will it STOP cap walk... no
but it does stabilize the cap better... but the cap is
still bending/bouncing to give you the cap walk... thats
weight and/or detonation... I have 1 SB that has 4 bolt
mains(not cross bolted) and I like that block.. it has
shown to be good over the years.. the outer bolts are 3/8
but the caps are massive.... billet steel
EDIT
looks like you might have to grind the side washers
to clear the pan(just guessing on that.. but looks close)
wave


I have a similar block. Don't know whose caps they are, but it uses 3/8ths bolts also. Do you know the torque sequence and spec for these caps?


I tighten up the big mains first to the spec then I use

45# on the 3/8.. I have the ARP main studs so I use that
spec for them
EDIT
mine also have 3/16" dowl pins in them for alignment and
maybe it helps other things.. I dont know
wave

Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 09/07/15 10:45 AM.
Re: Cross Bolted Main Conversion [Re: ChevyTS] #1907969
09/07/15 11:57 AM
09/07/15 11:57 AM
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usa
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lewtot184 Offline
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from my experience on a 470 with bill miller rods, light ross pistons, half fill, that the bottom end was darn near bullet proof. there wasn't any evidence of cap walk or metal transfer and i believe that the dissimilar metals helped in that respect. the key here, in my opinion, is the quality of the machine work. if the part of the cap were the cross bolt ties to the block is machined for a "snug" fit then the rest is easy. a loose fit will screw up the end play in the crank when the tie bolts torqued down. this engine i messed with wasn't a mega horsepower thing, about 650hp, but during freshening up the bearings could have been reused. this told me the bottom end was stable. don't let the moparts naysayers prevent you from getting your head out of the "box"!

Re: Cross Bolted Main Conversion [Re: BradH] #1908035
09/07/15 01:32 PM
09/07/15 01:32 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 23,613
Here
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Originally Posted By BradH
Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
Originally Posted By ChevyTS
I have tried using a girdle. Didn't work for me. Now I will see what happens when I increase the cap strength. I haven't tried aluminum caps yet. I have a hard time understanding how they would stop cap walk. I think it may be making it harder to detect. But I do intend to try some in the future.
They DON'T.........nothing does

Monte was surprisingly terse in his reply, but the benefit of the aluminum main cap (as he has explained before) is that it absorbs some of the shock transferred to the cap that a steel cap will pass on to the block. Think of the rebound difference when striking a metal object with a dead-blow hammer vs a normal hammer. hammer

I have over the years many times questioned the engineering merits of the typical girdle. It was never clear as wimpy as they are, as to what stiffness they really provided. The only explanation ever offered that might make some sense, which I have no way to verify, is if the crank is weak, and it flexes under extreme load with every revolution, it would want to, in the explainer's words, rock the cap(s) front and rear, and since the girdle is mounted the farthest distance from the crank on top of the cap, the girdle would reduce the cap from rocking, which maybe the same as "cap walk". The alum explanation for reducing harmonics makes some sense to me, but if alum is moving/flexing, it is slowly reducing its fatigue life.


I'm with Helmuth Hübener, and no soup is being served today.
Re: Cross Bolted Main Conversion [Re: ChevyTS] #1908044
09/07/15 01:46 PM
09/07/15 01:46 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,946
Bend,OR USA
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I've never been a fan of drilling through the side of the block to add side bolts due to the loss of material in the main webbing shruggy work twocents The Mopar 426 Hemi blocks where designed and cast for that work shruggy


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Cross Bolted Main Conversion [Re: ChevyTS] #1908059
09/07/15 02:11 PM
09/07/15 02:11 PM
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Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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What we all refer to as "cap walk" is really not that at all. What we have is a lack of clamping force and that lets the cap "bounce" and is what creates the fretting on the faces. As myself and others have stated, you even see this on iron Mega-Blocks, that have ductile caps and are cross bolted. These blocks are actually MADE for the cross bolt cap, like the HEMI, yet does not eliminate the issue. So the thoughts of an aftermarket cap, placed in a block that was NOT designed to do that, is not going to stop it either. The better blocks survive the issue better.......because, well, they are BETTER blocks, but the problem itself is NOT gone. Girdles, cross bolts and all the other stuff, that are an attempt to "lock the cap down" simply don't work. Now do they help?........that's all a matter of speculation.

Do the aluminum caps "fix" the issue?.......absolutely not, but it is my impression and others, that alum absorbs some of the movement and puts less stress on the main webs. Again, NOT a fix, just another form of bandaid.

So how do you "fix" the cap bounce........in a factory design B block, the simple answer is you don't. Your only hope is that the block is beefy enough to take it and that design includes Mega-Blocks, HEMI blocks and so forth. So how COULD it be fixed? In my opinion, that would take a total redesign of the bottom end, with much larger and beefier main webs, bigger studs and enough material to accept a splayed angle, 4 bolt cap like other brands

Re: Cross Bolted Main Conversion [Re: ChevyTS] #1908107
09/07/15 03:33 PM
09/07/15 03:33 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,334
NE Ohio
DoubleD Offline
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NE Ohio
If you work under the premise that there are two types of stock blocks when HP levels go above 600HP- those that are cracked and those that will crack - you accept the fact that stock blocks have limits - anything you do to them is a band-aid that might extend the life of the block some. Its a coin flip at best. But until somebody steps up and starts making aftermarket iron blocks again - band-aids is what we will use! I have used the ductile Mopar caps with decent results - I have used the program caps also - nothing stops cap walk maybe reduces it some - I do have a 512 RB with the aluminum caps ready to go - I will see how that works!

Re: Cross Bolted Main Conversion [Re: Monte_Smith] #1908136
09/07/15 04:14 PM
09/07/15 04:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,243
Charlotte, North Carolina
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Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
What we all refer to as "cap walk" is really not that at all. What we have is a lack of clamping force and that lets the cap "bounce" and is what creates the fretting on the faces.


Never thought of it that way. So the rotational side forces from the crank and rods is actually trying to push out of the journal bores at a given point in rotation. A side to side push would also explain how the block webbing cracks. Maybe the aluminum caps already have a better "preload" when clamped down, and springs back a further distance than steel, which is why there is a higher resistance to evidence of cap walk. Lighter components (rods, crank counterweights) would lessen the damaging side forces. If this is correct, then my next question is: How much can you rifle drill the center of a rod journal before you compromise strength?


[image][/image]
Re: Cross Bolted Main Conversion [Re: BradH] #1908149
09/07/15 04:48 PM
09/07/15 04:48 PM
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State of confusion
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Originally Posted By BradH
Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
Originally Posted By ChevyTS
I have tried using a girdle. Didn't work for me. Now I will see what happens when I increase the cap strength. I haven't tried aluminum caps yet. I have a hard time understanding how they would stop cap walk. I think it may be making it harder to detect. But I do intend to try some in the future.
They DON'T.........nothing does

Monte was surprisingly terse in his reply, but the benefit of the aluminum main cap (as he has explained before) is that it absorbs some of the shock transferred to the cap that a steel cap will pass on to the block. Think of the rebound difference when striking a metal object with a dead-blow hammer vs a normal hammer. hammer


That`s what THEY say but what about the expansion and contracting deal being alum. in an iron block.......


72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
Re: Cross Bolted Main Conversion [Re: Monte_Smith] #1908184
09/07/15 05:57 PM
09/07/15 05:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 622
sing sing
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sing sing
Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
What we all refer to as "cap walk" is really not that at all. What we have is a lack of clamping force and that lets the cap "bounce" and is what creates the fretting on the faces. As myself and others have stated, you even see this on iron Mega-Blocks, that have ductile caps and are cross bolted. These blocks are actually MADE for the cross bolt cap, like the HEMI, yet does not eliminate the issue. So the thoughts of an aftermarket cap, placed in a block that was NOT designed to do that, is not going to stop it either. The better blocks survive the issue better.......because, well, they are BETTER blocks, but the problem itself is NOT gone. Girdles, cross bolts and all the other stuff, that are an attempt to "lock the cap down" simply don't work. Now do they help?........that's all a matter of speculation.

Do the aluminum caps "fix" the issue?.......absolutely not, but it is my impression and others, that alum absorbs some of the movement and puts less stress on the main webs. Again, NOT a fix, just another form of bandaid.

So how do you "fix" the cap bounce........in a factory design B block, the simple answer is you don't. Your only hope is that the block is beefy enough to take it and that design includes Mega-Blocks, HEMI blocks and so forth. So how COULD it be fixed? In my opinion, that would take a total redesign of the bottom end, with much larger and beefier main webs, bigger studs and enough material to accept a splayed angle, 4 bolt cap like other brands
The cross bolt mains must not be to bad of a design, lots of OEM have gone that route. Ford Chevy. Im pretty sure the TFX block still has cross bolted mains,a few more bolts of course.

Re: Cross Bolted Main Conversion [Re: ChevyTS] #1908192
09/07/15 06:10 PM
09/07/15 06:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,248
Plymouth, MI
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Both Ford mod motors and the LS series engines have 4 bolt caps + 2 crossbolts. Chrysler's 3rd gen Hemi is only 2 bolt with crossbolting but the main webs appear to be stronger than a B/RB engine.


'18 Ford Raptor, random motorcycles, 1968 Plymouth Fury III - 11.37 @ 118
Re: Cross Bolted Main Conversion [Re: ChevyTS] #1908200
09/07/15 06:24 PM
09/07/15 06:24 PM
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aZLiViN
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new engines were designed with this design.... not an after thought.

Re: Cross Bolted Main Conversion [Re: ChevyTS] #1908203
09/07/15 06:28 PM
09/07/15 06:28 PM
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Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
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On the stud girdles, I don't see the 1/4" thick ones which support stock caps doing much other than being a 1/4" oil pan spacer.

The BCR Aluminum caps and 1/2" thick girdle is a different system. The caps are designed to span the width between the oil pan rails, and they bolt to the girdle further away from the main stud bolts, almost like cross bolted caps, but with the girdle being held down by the oil pan studs.

Re: Cross Bolted Main Conversion [Re: Thumperdart] #1908210
09/07/15 06:40 PM
09/07/15 06:40 PM
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North Alabama
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Originally Posted By Thumperdart
Originally Posted By BradH
Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
Originally Posted By ChevyTS
I have tried using a girdle. Didn't work for me. Now I will see what happens when I increase the cap strength. I haven't tried aluminum caps yet. I have a hard time understanding how they would stop cap walk. I think it may be making it harder to detect. But I do intend to try some in the future.
They DON'T.........nothing does

Monte was surprisingly terse in his reply, but the benefit of the aluminum main cap (as he has explained before) is that it absorbs some of the shock transferred to the cap that a steel cap will pass on to the block. Think of the rebound difference when striking a metal object with a dead-blow hammer vs a normal hammer. hammer


That`s what THEY say but what about the expansion and contracting deal being alum. in an iron block.......
Most all alum blocks have steel caps

Re: Cross Bolted Main Conversion [Re: Monte_Smith] #1908257
09/07/15 07:55 PM
09/07/15 07:55 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 576
Texas
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ChevyTS Offline OP
mopar
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Texas
Well the good thing is we can all agree that the main caps need to be upgraded. I'm not trying to promote any system of doing that. I view this as a learning PROCESS! First off think about what cap walk is. Under a load the main cap is forced down. This caused the sides to pull in. No longer held tight by the register the cap can move around. We see the same elongation happen in a connecting rod. Rod bearings are designed to allow for this. Think of the cap register as more of a way to preload the cap. This is why blocks with loose registers have more cap movement. Mopar blocks are not the only ones that suffer from cap movement. Ask a machinist how they fix the problem in other blocks and most of them will say that they use a stronger cap and force them tighter into the register. Think about this as well. Have you ever seen aluminum caps used to increase strength on any other engine block??? (again not saying they are a bad investment) I trust the machinist that have worked before me. Someone had to be the first to use aluminum caps and I'm sure they had a good reason. I just don't think they made that reason clear. I do intend to use aluminum caps in the future. For now I'm testing the cross bolted caps. After doing the machine work to install the caps I do not feel that I have removed any material to weaken the block. The cross bolts are 5/16 and they torque to 24 ft.lb. Just enough to help support the register.


T & K Performance
Re: Cross Bolted Main Conversion [Re: ChevyTS] #1908270
09/07/15 08:24 PM
09/07/15 08:24 PM
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Jerry Kathe Offline
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Originally Posted By ChevyTS
Well the good thing is we can all agree that the main caps need to be upgraded. I'm not trying to promote any system of doing that. I view this as a learning PROCESS! First off think about what cap walk is. Under a load the main cap is forced down. This caused the sides to pull in. No longer held tight by the register the cap can move around. We see the same elongation happen in a connecting rod. Rod bearings are designed to allow for this. Think of the cap register as more of a way to preload the cap. This is why blocks with loose registers have more cap movement. Mopar blocks are not the only ones that suffer from cap movement. Ask a machinist how they fix the problem in other blocks and most of them will say that they use a stronger cap and force them tighter into the register. Think about this as well. Have you ever seen aluminum caps used to increase strength on any other engine block??? (again not saying they are a bad investment) I trust the machinist that have worked before me. Someone had to be the first to use aluminum caps and I'm sure they had a good reason. I just don't think they made that reason clear. I do intend to use aluminum caps in the future. For now I'm testing the cross bolted caps. After doing the machine work to install the caps I do not feel that I have removed any material to weaken the block. The cross bolts are 5/16 and they torque to 24 ft.lb. Just enough to help support the register.



I still follow another belief….aluminum caps DO work as a SHOCK absorber, but only allow more dimensional shift with the main bores when stressed - shifting the fall out to the crankshaft…..Best fix for getting all you can from a oem block @ 750 – 800 hp and get reasonable life? ……get rid of harmonics….or as much of it as you can.

Cap chatter is a vibratory frequency that actually transfers material from one surface to another, the bounce that is mentioned. This vibratory frequency is as much or more of the problem than anything else. The clearance with the registers is definitely important and once this cap walk problem generates, the registers will only get more clearance....blocks fail and ect.

A stock block, professionally machined with a good set of studs (properly installed), NO FILL and even stock caps.....yep......stock caps......have made many, many laps over many, many years doing this without ONE failure. A couple hundred passes were also made on a throttle stop killing ALL throttle at .001 - .01 out…..nothing worse on hammering the bottom end than that.

Re: Cross Bolted Main Conversion [Re: Monte_Smith] #1908273
09/07/15 08:36 PM
09/07/15 08:36 PM
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State of confusion
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Was just stating my curiosity about the different metals expansion rates and figured it would have to influence bearing clearances somehow but maybe not...... shruggy


72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
Re: Cross Bolted Main Conversion [Re: ChevyTS] #1908279
09/07/15 08:39 PM
09/07/15 08:39 PM
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MN
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The aluminum caps were worth 5 lbs off the front of the car. I think I heard some older Cadillac iron blocks came with aluminum main caps?


69 GTX 68 Road Runner
Re: Cross Bolted Main Conversion [Re: Thumperdart] #1908320
09/07/15 09:20 PM
09/07/15 09:20 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 576
Texas
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ChevyTS Offline OP
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Texas
Originally Posted By Thumperdart
Was just stating my curiosity about the different metals expansion rates and figured it would have to influence bearing clearances somehow but maybe not...... shruggy
That may be part of the reason they use them. If they expand faster they should register tighter as the rest of the engine is coming up to temp???/


T & K Performance
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