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Re: Replacing Timing Chain [Re: MoparforLife] #187078 01/08/09 08:43 PM 01/08/09 08:43 PM
Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 10,354 Someplace you aren't S SomeCarGuy I Live Here
SomeCarGuy I Live Here S Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 10,354 Someplace you aren't	Quote: Quote: This is getting funny. Some of you guys act like degreeing a cam is some sort of high science. I couldn't care less what you did 40 years ago. Giving a rookie advise like skipping simple check work is crap. It takes a very few minutes to due. Not doing it is just plain LAZY. Try for more than 40 years. Experience works. Parts are probably closer to specs now than they were then and it worked then as it does now. You sound like one that thinks that every engine out there off the line has been degreed. Yep I am getting lazier by the year. You will to. It is just poor advise to tell a newbie that it isn't needed. What if he gets off a tooth? Not hard to do when you don't have 40 years experience. I just hate to see something so simple get pushed aside. If he has a problem later, guess what, the installed centerline will be asked and he will have to pull it apart again to check. MUCH easier to do now. Ever have a "factory freak" or a "dog"? Details do matter.

Re: Replacing Timing Chain [Re: SomeCarGuy] #187079 01/08/09 09:53 PM 01/08/09 09:53 PM
Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 284 Chicago suburbs D dartgame enthusiast
dartgame enthusiast D Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 284 Chicago suburbs	If you want to save some money and do not want to check the center line - at least compare your old timing sets gears and marks to the new ones on the replacement set. At least you'll then have some idea if the marks are out of whack. Once upon at time I had a name brand timing set that was mismarked. I installed it and low and behold the motor ran like crap. I pulled it apart and found one of the marks was a tooth off. Ever since then I check the centerline on every build I do. Better to know, than not know.

Re: Replacing Timing Chain [Re: HemiStan] #187080 01/08/09 10:10 PM 01/08/09 10:10 PM
Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 390 pacific northwest W wings471 enthusiast
wings471 enthusiast W Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 390 pacific northwest	Quote: wtucker, I live up in Newport News. Shoot me a PM with your number and I can talk you through putting that timing chain in. Stan You can't beat a generous offer like that. The opportunity to learn how to do something like this just makes your mechanical knowledge greater and will aid in understanding other related technical questions/problems ...do it. http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm136/wings440/P8050125-1.jpg "Uhmmmm......I got nuthin'."

Re: Replacing Timing Chain [Re: dartgame] #187081 01/08/09 10:14 PM 01/08/09 10:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 6,620 Abilene, Texas F fastmark master
fastmark master F Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 6,620 Abilene, Texas	Quote: If you want to save some money and do not want to check the center line - at least compare your old timing sets gears and marks to the new ones on the replacement set. At least you'll then have some idea if the marks are out of whack. Once upon at time I had a name brand timing set that was mismarked. I installed it and low and behold the motor ran like crap. I pulled it apart and found one of the marks was a tooth off. Ever since then I check the centerline on every build I do. Better to know, than not know. Amen from the cheap seats. You guys can brag all you want to about building a thousand or a million motors. I started about 30 year ago and have built maybe a hundred or so. I have found TWO motors that the timing marks were off from the factory. They were both 340 factory sets or may have been replacement sets. One was off 8 and the other off 16 degrees. The friend with the 16 degree off motor always wondered why it ran like crap. I have found a few aftermarket sets needing as much as 4 degrees to correct.I would say the chances are less than 2-3% it would be off more than a few degrees, but it can happen. Degreeing a cam is not rocket science and is just the first step in learning how to blueprint motors. Buying mics and tools will make it enjoyable to build motors. Get busy and learn.

Re: Replacing Timing Chain [Re: SomeCarGuy] #187082 01/08/09 10:31 PM 01/08/09 10:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,968 Hampton, Ga. 7 70dart360 Green Meister
70dart360 Green Meister 7 Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,968 Hampton, Ga.	Quote: This is getting funny. Some of you guys act like degreeing a cam is some sort of high science. I couldn't care less what you did 40 years ago. Giving a rookie advise like skipping simple check work is crap. It takes a very few minutes to due. Not doing it is just plain LAZY. If its stock dude whats the use? Its gonna be a pig anyway ya look at it. And as far as valve to piston clearance in a stocker Mopar? Whatever, the dang piston is 1/4 inch in the hole. Say what ya want, but I been a master mechanic for 25 years and unless its a performance engine why waste the time and try to confuse they guy? Never seen someone degreee a cam in a stock engine doing a basic timing chain job. You must be one of those shop owners that suck every red cent out of their customers for worthless extras! Line your dots up man and run with it. 70 Dart Swinger 72 D-100 440 shortbed 76 Pinto, 68k 21mpg!

Re: Replacing Timing Chain [Re: 70dart360] #187083 01/08/09 11:13 PM 01/08/09 11:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 25,200 Upper Midwest M MoparforLife Too Many Posts
MoparforLife Too Many Posts M Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 25,200 Upper Midwest	Quote: Quote: This is getting funny. Some of you guys act like degreeing a cam is some sort of high science. I couldn't care less what you did 40 years ago. Giving a rookie advise like skipping simple check work is crap. It takes a very few minutes to due. Not doing it is just plain LAZY. If its stock dude whats the use? Its gonna be a pig anyway ya look at it. And as far as valve to piston clearance in a stocker Mopar? Whatever, the dang piston is 1/4 inch in the hole. Say what ya want, but I been a master mechanic for 25 years and unless its a performance engine why waste the time and try to confuse they guy? Never seen someone degreee a cam in a stock engine doing a basic timing chain job. You must be one of those shop owners that suck every red cent out of their customers for worthless extras! Line your dots up man and run with it.

Re: Replacing Timing Chain [Re: MoparforLife] #187084 01/08/09 11:42 PM 01/08/09 11:42 PM
Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 4,179 California mickm master
mickm master Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 4,179 California	or how about, if he feels like getting more technical and learning something new, degree it. if he doesn't, don't. problem solved.

Re: Replacing Timing Chain [Re: SomeCarGuy] #187085 01/08/09 11:47 PM 01/08/09 11:47 PM
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Quote: Quote: Quote: This is getting funny. Some of you guys act like degreeing a cam is some sort of high science. I couldn't care less what you did 40 years ago. Giving a rookie advise like skipping simple check work is crap. It takes a very few minutes to due. Not doing it is just plain LAZY. Try for more than 40 years. Experience works. Parts are probably closer to specs now than they were then and it worked then as it does now. You sound like one that thinks that every engine out there off the line has been degreed. Yep I am getting lazier by the year. You will to. It is just poor advise to tell a newbie that it isn't needed. What if he gets off a tooth? Not hard to do when you don't have 40 years experience. I just hate to see something so simple get pushed aside. If he has a problem later, guess what, the installed centerline will be asked and he will have to pull it apart again to check. MUCH easier to do now. Ever have a "factory freak" or a "dog"? Details do matter. This is absolute nonsense. FIRST degreeing a cam won't do much good if you don't know what you started with. That is, it might run better on the factory marks, anyhow. SECOND just because you didn't degree the damn thing does not mean you'll "get it off a tooth." Please don't make fun of 40 years experience. Engines pretty much work the same way now as they did 40 years ago, WAIT!!! WAIT!!! WE ARE talking about a 40 year old engine!!!! I'll guarantee you that the thousands of 340's 440's 383's and probably street hemi's that went down the production line NEVER SAW A DEGREE WHEEL. The factory assembly line folks slapped the sprocket "on the marks" and down the line it went. AND ONE LAST TIME. If you get the cam "on the marks" degreeing will NOT do you any good until you have a baseline. Depending on whether this is a "torque monster" street engine or an RPM screamer, you won't know which way to push the wheel until you find the baseline. From the sounds of the original poster, I doubt that he has access to a chassis dyno, and neither do most of the rest of us.

Re: Replacing Timing Chain #187086 01/09/09 12:09 AM 01/09/09 12:09 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 6,620 Abilene, Texas F fastmark master
fastmark master F Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 6,620 Abilene, Texas	Quote: I'll guarantee you that the thousands of 340's 440's 383's and probably street hemi's that went down the production line NEVER SAW A DEGREE WHEEL. The factory assembly line folks slapped the sprocket "on the marks" and down the line it went. AND ONE LAST TIME. If you get the cam "on the marks" degreeing will NOT do you any good until you have a baseline. Depending on whether this is a "torque monster" street engine or an RPM screamer, you won't know which way to push the wheel until you find the baseline. This is my point exactly.If you lined it up "on the marks" as you call it, the timing marks could be off and you would never know.The only way to check the marks is to degree it. You say that you have done thousands of engines and never degreed a stock motor, then how do you know they were all correct? One of the motors that I found to be off 8 degrees was one that I had built before I started checking the cam degree. I always wondered why is had less low end torque than I expected. I agree that the chances are slim, but I have had two in my "short" 30 years of engine building.

Re: Replacing Timing Chain [Re: fastmark] #187087 01/09/09 12:14 AM 01/09/09 12:14 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,968 Hampton, Ga. 7 70dart360 Green Meister
70dart360 Green Meister 7 Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,968 Hampton, Ga.	Quote: but I have had two in my "short" 30 years of engine building. Take all the mechanics that dont, and break it down into odds like in Vegas. Bout a million to one that it'll make a drastic difference. 70 Dart Swinger 72 D-100 440 shortbed 76 Pinto, 68k 21mpg!

Re: Replacing Timing Chain [Re: fastmark] #187088 01/09/09 12:38 AM 01/09/09 12:38 AM
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	You say that you have done thousands of engines and never degreed a stock motor, Just for clarity, I never said that. The point I'm trying to make, though, is that DEGREEING a cam to whatever the grinder specked does not guarantee that is what you are going to want. So without trying it, establishing a baseline, and then deciding to advance/ retard it from there is simply shooting in the dark

Re: Replacing Timing Chain #187089 01/09/09 09:49 AM 01/09/09 09:49 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 6,620 Abilene, Texas F fastmark master
fastmark master F Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 6,620 Abilene, Texas	I agree with that statement. I decided that since I was a decent engine builder, I would build my own Jr Dragster motors a few year back. I did not realize the close tolerances and severe duty that was placed on the parts. I only had one failed motor in all those years so I can safely say I was successful. One of the things I tried was changing the cam timing to kill the low end and give me better finish line power. My engine part provider said not to do it and he had his cams dialed in to the perfect degree as per his R and D. I used his cam timing for awhile and then went to my experiment. Small changes in a 50 hp 3.5 Rhino make a big difference. After that I had less trouble with tire spin and ran max mph. We were usually the fastest kids at the track. Man I miss those days. Like I said, the marks are probably ok and just lining them up will be fine. It always pays to check.I kind of get like the mad scientist when I get mics in my hand. It's fun!

Re: Replacing Timing Chain [Re: fastmark] #187090 01/09/09 10:30 AM 01/09/09 10:30 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 25,200 Upper Midwest M MoparforLife Too Many Posts
MoparforLife Too Many Posts M Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 25,200 Upper Midwest	So far no one has brought up the fact that the gear broke - where are the pieces? The pan should really really be pulled and cleaned. The threads at least checked for condition to see if they will hold or if a new cam is in order. If this is an old engine it wouldn't hurt to check bearings while the pan is off. As for degreeing this cam it is an unknown centerline so you need a base line to start with. Put the gears and chain on and run it.

Re: Replacing Timing Chain #187091 01/09/09 10:33 AM 01/09/09 10:33 AM
Joined: Nov 2007 Posts: 21,927 Kirkland, Washington Pacnorthcuda Too Many Posts
Pacnorthcuda Too Many Posts Joined: Nov 2007 Posts: 21,927 Kirkland, Washington	Quote: You say that you have done thousands of engines and never degreed a stock motor, Just for clarity, I never said that. The point I'm trying to make, though, is that DEGREEING a cam to whatever the grinder specked does not guarantee that is what you are going to want. So without trying it, establishing a baseline, and then deciding to advance/ retard it from there is simply shooting in the dark I don't build engines, but I install cams from time to time, and I want to KNOW the installed centerline so I have that baseline info. If I install a cam straight up without degreeing it I don't really know what the ICL is. Then, if some issue comes up, like a soft bottom end, or a top end that lays down early, I am left guessing if its the cam ICL or not. My last install on a Voodoo ended up 106.75 on a recommended 106 install. (yes I installed straight up) If I did not degree it, I would not know.

Re: Replacing Timing Chain [Re: 70dart360] #187092 01/10/09 12:24 AM 01/10/09 12:24 AM
Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 10,354 Someplace you aren't S SomeCarGuy I Live Here
SomeCarGuy I Live Here S Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 10,354 Someplace you aren't	Quote: Quote: This is getting funny. Some of you guys act like degreeing a cam is some sort of high science. I couldn't care less what you did 40 years ago. Giving a rookie advise like skipping simple check work is crap. It takes a very few minutes to due. Not doing it is just plain LAZY. If its stock dude whats the use? Its gonna be a pig anyway ya look at it. And as far as valve to piston clearance in a stocker Mopar? Whatever, the dang piston is 1/4 inch in the hole. Say what ya want, but I been a master mechanic for 25 years and unless its a performance engine why waste the time and try to confuse they guy? Never seen someone degreee a cam in a stock engine doing a basic timing chain job. You must be one of those shop owners that suck every red cent out of their customers for worthless extras! Line your dots up man and run with it. This is a performance website so... A stock engine will need all the help it can get and if it is off it will for sure be a pig. Why leave it to chance on the sole reason that you feel like being lazy?

Re: Replacing Timing Chain [Re: 70dart360] #187093 01/10/09 12:25 AM 01/10/09 12:25 AM
Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 10,354 Someplace you aren't S SomeCarGuy I Live Here
SomeCarGuy I Live Here S Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 10,354 Someplace you aren't	Quote: Quote: but I have had two in my "short" 30 years of engine building. Take all the mechanics that dont, and break it down into odds like in Vegas. Bout a million to one that it'll make a drastic difference. Why roll the dice?

Re: Replacing Timing Chain #187094 01/10/09 12:26 AM 01/10/09 12:26 AM
Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 10,354 Someplace you aren't S SomeCarGuy I Live Here
SomeCarGuy I Live Here S Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 10,354 Someplace you aren't	Quote: You say that you have done thousands of engines and never degreed a stock motor, Just for clarity, I never said that. The point I'm trying to make, though, is that DEGREEING a cam to whatever the grinder specked does not guarantee that is what you are going to want. So without trying it, establishing a baseline, and then deciding to advance/ retard it from there is simply shooting in the dark Yes, you need a baseline but without doing the job you will be pondering about what to do without a clue.

Re: Replacing Timing Chain [Re: SomeCarGuy] #187095 01/10/09 07:45 AM 01/10/09 07:45 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,982 Ansonia, CT C CJK440 master
CJK440 master C Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,982 Ansonia, CT	What if the intake lobe for #1 was ground right and all the others ground off??? 2017 Contusion Blue Challenger T/A 392 M6 "BLKNBLU"

Re: Replacing Timing Chain [Re: SomeCarGuy] #187096 01/10/09 07:45 AM 01/10/09 07:45 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 25,200 Upper Midwest M MoparforLife Too Many Posts
MoparforLife Too Many Posts M Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 25,200 Upper Midwest	Another point being like in this case it is an unknown and unknown spec. No idea what to degree it to. Yep better pull a number out of your A&& and that will be fine, it is degreed now. Quote: This is a performance website so.. Whoopie Poopie this is a performance sight, that being the case it is an unwarranted question for it being a stock engine. No more non performance questions asked here. Oh better run right out and degree that driver too because coming from the factory it wasn't. Suprising that they even run not being degreed. BTW: if it makes you feel better by all means go ahead and degree it. But for a driver you won't gain squat.

Re: Replacing Timing Chain [Re: MoparforLife] #187097 01/10/09 07:48 AM 01/10/09 07:48 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,982 Ansonia, CT C CJK440 master
CJK440 master C Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,982 Ansonia, CT	Quote: So far no one has brought up the fact that the gear broke - where are the pieces? The pan should really really be pulled and cleaned. The threads at least checked for condition to see if they will hold or if a new cam is in order. If this is an old engine it wouldn't hurt to check bearings while the pan is off. As for degreeing this cam it is an unknown centerline so you need a base line to start with. Put the gears and chain on and run it. And what about the valves??? If it broke while running I'm sure some met the pistons in a bad way. 2017 Contusion Blue Challenger T/A 392 M6 "BLKNBLU"

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