Does that system require an air cleaner sitting on top of it? What attracted me to the Pro Flo XT is it didn't need that and it's set up for cold air

Make sure the XT will fit under the hood of your car. The throttle body is based off a GM LS manifold, but I don't think the manifold opening is setup for anything larger than 90mm out of the box so if you wanted to go to a 105mm or something the manifold may require porting. I had an XT w/90mm throttle body on my 440 running megasquirt and I was really happy with it. I have no experience with the edelbrock controller so I cant speak to that. I agree with ahy, the in tank fuel pump is the way to go. I used to have a ton of issues using an external pump with a stock tank with an add on sump. the in tank pump was the cure to all my fuel supply problems.

Make sure the XT will fit under the hood of your car. The throttle body is based off a GM LS manifold, but I don't think the manifold opening is setup for anything larger than 90mm out of the box so if you wanted to go to a 105mm or something the manifold may require porting. I had an XT w/90mm throttle body on my 440 running megasquirt and I was really happy with it. I have no experience with the edelbrock controller so I cant speak to that. I agree with ahy, the in tank fuel pump is the way to go. I used to have a ton of issues using an external pump with a stock tank with an add on sump. the in tank pump was the cure to all my fuel supply problems.

I installed the Edelbrock Xt EFI on my 505" stroker (0.030" over 440 with 4.25" crank), and it works good. I chose it because I wanted something that would fit under a stock hood of my Coronet. This was my first EFI setup to use, and I used the complete Edelbrock XT system.
If you plan to go this route, don't get the entire Edelbrock XT system, just get the intake and fuel rails, then get the best prices on the injectors, pressure regulator, throttle body, and sensors (all GM stuff.) The controller is outdated and very limited as it will not control cooling fans or A/C clutch (and A/C idle.)
I am upgrading my computer system to the FAST XFI 2.0 with data logging, and using the FAST dual sync dist. This controller also has the adaptive learning and wide band O2 sensor, and has a ton more features, but is expensive. The new mega squirt MS3 also has most of theses features at a lower price.
You will need a long lokar throttle cable with the EFI end to connect to the throttle body. There are a few places making EFI tanks with internal pumps which is likely the easy and clean way to setup the fuel system. I like the Tanks Inc setup with the separate sending unit and pump, but the one for the '68-70 B-Body is still not avaliable yet, so I ordered a Spectra Performance CR9CFI Fuel tank with internal pump from Amazon ($366.02) to try out. I will post more info on this when I get it. I really want to use my Walbro TIA485-2 450LPH E-85 fuel pump ($140 from Amazon) with a flex-fuel sensor that the FAST computer reads to know how much alcohol is in the fuel, then the the computer will correct the air/fuel mixture.

You can do flex fuel with the megasquart, it's a sensor from what I understand.
I really like the intake, anyone know what the cost is for just the intake and rails?

Racepartsolutions.com is a good place to check out for all your fuel injection needs.

I run the Edelbrock Pro Flo intake on my 70 Challenger but with a different engine management system. I run an Autronic SM4 system.





I run E85 and use this Siemens sensor to detect percentage of ethanol



I plumbed the sensor into the return line, you can see it mounted on the left side of the fuel cell towards the rear

There is a lot of stuff required to "piece together" your own custom efi system, which is exactly why the pre-built kit systems are so popular because they save you all that trouble. Fortunately there is a lot of info on the web to help you, just do some searches like "how to convert to efi" and you will find many articles such as these:

Fuel Injection Conversion Part 1

Fuel Injection Conversion Part 2

Fuel Injection Conversion Part 3

I didn't read those particular articles but I'm just listing them as examples of what you can find when you search. There are many others, you just have to do some searches and you will find the info is out there.

What size injectors are you going to use?

I would suggest these injectors. they are $41 each on Rock Auto

I used them on my MS3X 440. They are 60lb-Hr out of the 2013 Ford Mustang Cobra.



I then purchased hats to make them full length to fit on my Edelbrock ProFlo-XT Manifold!

Super race car lookin!




Here is a link to the hats:
http://www.t1racedevelopment.com/categor...-injectors.html

If you want quality injectors I believe Bosch, Siemens etc. would be a safe bet.
Myself I'm using 82 lbs Siemens injectors in my 512, but I'm running E85 so I need a little more than on gasoline.

Edelbrock, Holley, Fast, etc do NOT build their own injectors. They simply buy them from Bosch, Siemens, etc. So it doesn't matter where you buy the injectors.

As far as choosing your injections, just size them to your max HP you can make. Figure it a .5 BSFC and figure a 70% duty cycle at max.

I personally wouldn't use the Ford injector or any factory injector for that matter.........the simple reason is the connector. If you use a standard aftermarket injector, Bosch, Siemens, etc, the connectors will match your harness. The less you have to modify the harness you buy, the better off you will be. Plus I don't care for those hats on the top. Why add an extra place to have a leak.

As for which ECU to choose..........they mostly do the same thing and that is what YOU TELL them to do. So look at some software and see what YOU are most comfortable with. I have personally tuned Holley, Edelbrock, FAST, BS3, Haltech, Fuel-Tech, Motec and a couple others. Of that list, the Edelbrock would be my LAST choice and I think the Holley is the most user friendly, but others will like different ones

Monte

I think you will be happy with either.

You will need to buy a harness at the same time you get the ECU. Most people get the universal but you can build one from scratch.

Make sure you get the wide band 02 and harness. Or call Monty and give him your specs and he can hook u up.

Edelbrock, Holley, Fast, etc do NOT build their own injectors. They simply buy them from Bosch, Siemens, etc. So it doesn't matter where you buy the injectors.

As far as choosing your injections, just size them to your max HP you can make. Figure it a .5 BSFC and figure a 70% duty cycle at max.

I personally wouldn't use the Ford injector or any factory injector for that matter.........the simple reason is the connector. If you use a standard aftermarket injector, Bosch, Siemens, etc, the connectors will match your harness. The less you have to modify the harness you buy, the better off you will be. Plus I don't care for those hats on the top. Why add an extra place to have a leak.

As for which ECU to choose..........they mostly do the same thing and that is what YOU TELL them to do. So look at some software and see what YOU are most comfortable with. I have personally tuned Holley, Edelbrock, FAST, BS3, Haltech, Fuel-Tech, Motec and a couple others. Of that list, the Edelbrock would be my LAST choice and I think the Holley is the most user friendly, but others will like different ones

Monte

What???

Where is the confusion? You buy an aftermarket generic harness, it will NOT have connectors that fit those Ford injector plugs, unless the company offers that in an injector harness. Some do, some don't. And are those injectors low or high impedance. Does the ECU you are interested in drive either? Again, some do, some don't.

To the OP........it is pretty obvious that you are not SURE what you need. I suggest you contact somebody such as myself or Mopar Rich who does this stuff a LOT and let them put you a package together that will WORK. For the most part, users are going to suggest what THEY use. That may be good and it may not.

This is SIMPLE stuff really. You pick an ECU and harness that you want to use and go with that. The rest of the ancillary pieces don't really matter. We/Holley for example, have our boxes configured to work with both GM and Ford factory TPS, coolant, IAC, IAT, etc sensors. Some may not and that requires custom configuration or their specific sensors. Our box also controls the fuel pump, fans, water pump........basically whatever you want it to.......some don't. Ours has a full function data logger........some don't. We offer a full size monitor dash......some don't. Ours has a self learn system......some don't. Ours can control DBW throttle bodies and electronic transmissions.......some don't...........Ours will drive "smart coils" if you want to loose the dist and ignition box.......some don't........Do your research

injectors are sized from as low as 20lb/hr to over 500lb/hr.....you buy the injector size you NEED........makes no difference from who

Monte

Monte they are standard EV-6/EV-14 injector connectors... They are high Z injectors I found dead time to be .94 MS with my injector drivers. They are also very linear at the base in idle range since they are a factory injector.

OP if your harness does not have this connector style, move on in my opinion...

If you have to buy a custom Holley style fuel injectors of some sort, run away! You wont be finding those injectors at the local parts store if needed.

I built an MS3X setup on my 440, and love it.


I'm just trying to suggest easy to find, off the shelf, ultra reliable, inexpensive parts that work for the OP.

[img]http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/KIOiHGJGuNZ9kwuhZC0j3yT4aZgHEWz0r1brZY-nbnM=w1132-h641-no[/img]

That's one gorgeous setup you got there! Parts list for your EFI?

What I see is that the MS3 EMS assembled and ready is $659 (including the MAP sensor), the complete harness is $79 + $79. That adds up to $817.
An Innovate MTX-l is a complete Lambda sensor system (can be used stand-alone) that connects to the MS3 EMS and the cost is $209.
Now we are at $1026.
What is missing is intake air temp sensor, engine temp sensor, crank sensor, cam sensor etc, but the cost for these is marginal IMHO.

What I see is that the MS3 EMS assembled and ready is $659 (including the MAP sensor), the complete harness is $79 + $79. That adds up to $817.
An Innovate MTX-l is a complete Lambda sensor system (can be used stand-alone) that connects to the MS3 EMS and the cost is $209.
Now we are at $1026.
What is missing is intake air temp sensor, engine temp sensor, crank sensor, cam sensor etc, but the cost for these is marginal IMHO.

Injectors, intakes, sensors, throttle bodies, pumps etc, cost what they cost, so that is a wash, with whichever system you buy, so that is a non factor.

Now, what the "system" costs you depends. The Mega-Squirt 3 with a DIY harness is about $1000 and with a custom harness is $1150 and comes with NO sensors. I can get you a Holley HP ECU and wiring "kit" that comes with ECU, a terminated plug and play harness, a Bosch o2 sensor, map sensor, coolant temp and IAT sensor included off the Holley web site right now for $1650 and I can likely beat that price. So to say that piecing a system together is WAY cheaper than a "boxed" kit is not entirely true.

Monte

Seems to me after all this discussion that several parts of the EFI systems are now commodities. Some of you don't have any idea how cool that is. Others of us remember back, way back in the day when streetable fuel injection was one of those hopeless dreams, and people tried to get Hilborn systems to live on the street. Those few who actually did were considered magicians.

The concept of being able to measure air/fuel ratio in a moving vehicle, real-time, didn't exist except in the farthest out dreams. So we are living in a golden age.

To the guy who wants to start out an EFI project the question I'd ask is why are you doing it? It boils down to a "Journey or Destination" question. From what Monte is saying, there doesn't seem to be a big financial reason to go either way. So pick the approach that suits your head.

In my case projects always take six times as long as I estimate, so if I wanted the EFI system to work in my lifetime, I'd better get a system that's already assembled.

R.

Injectors, intakes, sensors, throttle bodies, pumps etc, cost what they cost, so that is a wash, with whichever system you buy, so that is a non factor.

Now, what the "system" costs you depends. The Mega-Squirt 3 with a DIY harness is about $1000 and with a custom harness is $1150 and comes with NO sensors. I can get you a Holley HP ECU and wiring "kit" that comes with ECU, a terminated plug and play harness, a Bosch o2 sensor, map sensor, coolant temp and IAT sensor included off the Holley web site right now for $1650 and I can likely beat that price. So to say that piecing a system together is WAY cheaper than a "boxed" kit is not entirely true.

Monte

There is also the issue of legally using this fuel-injected car on the street. Is a '70 Challenger a pre-pollution control vehicle? If I swap the engine that was previously in it for the 440, does it make it legal? I'm going by what I saw on Holley and Edelbrock's website

Dude, you live in Florida, land of no emissions inspections. You'll be fine. For years, I drove a '73 Duster with an 8-71 blown and twin Dominator'd 528 Hemi on the streets around Tampa, and I was never bothered by the fuzz.

Fair enough. I do intend to take this thing to other states on trips, but I will have it registered in Florida. Are the emissions control laws on a state-by-state basis? As far as I know, there are none in Florida pertaining to aftermarket modifications like I'm proposing to do.

Yes,

It is entirely true. All the junkyards here give sensors and wire for free. They know they might not work, so you can grab whatever you want for free. of course this can apply to the Holley setup as well... however!

MS3 PCB Kit $385
MS3X XPNDR $219
MS3 Harness $79
MS3X Harness $79

GM TPS FREE
GM IAT FREE
GM CLT FREE
GM MAP FREE
GM TPS FREE
CPS Sensor $30
Crank Sensor FREE
GM IAC FREE
All sensor pigtails FREE

Tuner Studio $20
(LS) Coils x8 $80
Trigger Wheel $25
Injectors x8 $328
LS Throttle body $120
Fuel rails $112
AEM A/F Wideband $150

$1627 for all the stuff above "Pieced" together and I am ahead of the Holley setup

with Coils, Injectors, Throttle body, fuel rails, Trigger wheel and sensors.

That is a big chunk of change that needs to be added to a Holley kit.


As "Hot rodding" in the modern sense becomes more popular, companies like Holley, Edelbrock, FAST and the likes will have to start dropping prices to compete. I think that is great!

Sweet, thank God for being born in Florida (only time in my life I thought I'd say that).

Say I build the 440/512 stroker with flat top pistons, aluminum heads, the proper roller camshaft, 3.54 gears, TTI 2" Headers, windage tray, and the fuel injection system I'm talking about, all hooked up with a Gear Vendors 727 auto. About how much horsepower and foot pounds of torque could I expect? Anyone have any dyno results from a similar build?

You can read my entire thread on how I home built the system, from start to finish here: http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,99432.0.html

Sweet, thank God for being born in Florida (only time in my life I thought I'd say that).

Say I build the 440/512 stroker with flat top pistons, aluminum heads, the proper roller camshaft, 3.54 gears, TTI 2" Headers, windage tray, and the fuel injection system I'm talking about, all hooked up with a Gear Vendors 727 auto. About how much horsepower and foot pounds of torque could I expect? Anyone have any dyno results from a similar build?

Sweet, thank God for being born in Florida (only time in my life I thought I'd say that).

Say I build the 440/512 stroker with flat top pistons, aluminum heads, the proper roller camshaft, 3.54 gears, TTI 2" Headers, windage tray, and the fuel injection system I'm talking about, all hooked up with a Gear Vendors 727 auto. About how much horsepower and foot pounds of torque could I expect? Anyone have any dyno results from a similar build?

I have a similar built 512 in my 69 Bee. Indy EZ -1 heads, dish pistons and small flat tappet hydraulic cam. I also run a 727, GV and 3.54 rear. I built this engine for the street and to run on pump gas. Never put it on a dyno, so I can't tell you the HP. On a carb it went 11.7 in the 1/4 on a 90 degree day. Not bad for a 4000 lb brick with PS, PB and AC. Four months ago I ditched the carb and installed a FAST 2.0 throttle body EFI. Love it. I don't believe the EFI did much to increase HP but as expected the engine runs much better over the intire RPM range now. I love the fact that the FAST control box lets me build my ignition curve, then controls it. I also like the real time display and not needing to use a laptop for set up or making changes. The FAST may be more expensive than the route you are considering but for my application I believe it was the best choice. Good luck with what ever system you decide on.

EFI pricing is all over the board, because people never compare apples to apples. When it comes down to it, all the ancillary parts are parts and cost what they cost, regardless of system. The cost of the ECU is the MAIN thing. As stated the Holley HP ECU, which has tons of features, such as 4 stage nitrous controller, built in data logger, the ability to run CNP ignition, built in boost control, built in water/meth controls, 31x31 resolution fuel tables, 20 programmable inputs and outputs and lots of other things, LISTS for $1100. The Dominator ECU, which adds a second wideband, the ability to run DBW throttle bodies and an electronic trans and has 40 inputs and outputs, lists for $1900. They both work on a can bus system are can link directly with two available dashes we have. The data logger is GREAT and can be programmed to read ANY sensor you choose to use. External G-meters, shock sensors, transducers, speed sensors, whatever, it will read it.

We have non terminated "build your own" harnesses, as well as plug n play harnesses for about anything, including late HEMIs, LS motors and Coyote Mustangs.

The key is knowing what you NEED. You look on Summit and see an EFI "kit" for 3k and think wow, that's high. But that "kit" probably has a manifold, throttle body, injectors, maybe a pump and reg, along with other stuff. then you see that Billy Bob on Moparts, put a "kit" together with this and that and spent fourteen dollars and think the HOlley is way high. Again, NOT the case when you get down to buying what you NEED. So the ECU is the thing. And as I stated earlier, if a build it yourself $300 ECU will do all YOU need to do, that's fine, that's what you should do. But DON'T compare it to another brand and say it does ALL the same stuff at a 1/3 the cost, because it does NOT.

You can pay $250 for a set of factory injectors, $400 for some Holley injectors, $750 for some from Injector Clinic, or $1100 for some from Billet Atomizer and they ALL flow the same lb/hr of fuel. Again, depends on what you WANT and what you NEED.

And I don't care who makes it, be it Holley, FAST, BS3, Mega-Squirt, etc............for the SAME features in an ECU, you WILL pay similar money and that's just the way it is.

You have a lot of patience, Monte.

That sounds awesome! I think I want flat top pistons though for higher compression especially if I go with aluminum 440 Source stealth heads. However, I would have my heads ported in a different way, instead of making the ports large & straight I would work on air speed , twist & swirl to cause the air to enter the cylinder at a better angle & create swirl to better mix & suspend fuel. I have been told doing it this way really helps both performance and fuel mileage (according to Chryco Psycho on cuda-challenger.com). Normally I wouldn't care about that on a hotrod, but I'd love to be able to drive this on long road trips or in town without having to fill up every 100 miles. The fuel injection and GV 727 should also help with that.

A controller tablet would be great, I'm considering the Holley system for that reason (cheaper than FAST and MS3 doesn't have the tablet).

By the way, what is the max compression ratio I can run with 93 octane? Is 10.5-11.5 pushing it?

from Matt Cramer...

This is comparing the two ECU's Monte is talking about.

I'll compare the MS3-Pro to the Holley HP, as this one is closest in price. Both of them are fully sealed ECUs with self tuning capabilities for fuel, sequential fuel injection, and full support of the 58X LS ignition, and both have two knock sensor inputs.

Price with generic harness: $1199 for the MS3-Pro, $1575.95 for the Holley HP

LS drop on harnesses: Currently available for the Holley HP, in development for the MS3-Pro

Traction control: Built in on MS3-Pro, uses external module on all Holley variants

Boost control: Both can do open or closed loop.

Launch control: Both allow a 2 and 3 step rev limiter. MS3-Pro can also control a trans brake, variable launch input for the 2-step mode, and trans brake creep for turbo staging.

Staged injection (V: Standard on the MS3-Pro, available on Holley Dominator but not HP

Extra input channels: The MS3-Pro has 3 analog, 4 switched, and 3 high frequency switched inputs. Holley HP has 4 general purpose inputs.

Extra output channels: MS3-Pro has 8, Holley HP has 4.

Wideband controller support: External on MS3-Pro, internal on Holley

Nitrous stages: 2 on MS3-Pro, 4 on Holley - Both can run progressive.

Internal data logging: 8 GB on MS3-Pro, 4 GB on Holley

Individual cylinder trim: Holley uses a fixed amount for each cylinder. MS3-Pro uses 6 x 6 individual trim tables.

Load methods: Holley supports speed density or alpha-N. MS3-Pro supports speed density, alpha-N, and MAF.

Diagnostics: Both offer some level of check engine functionality. The MS3-Pro is capable of detecting failed MAP or cam sensors and entering a fall-back mode automatically. The fallback for a failed MAP sensor does require tuning.
__________________

Yes it IS the case for me, I don't need frickin 4 stages of nitrous control for hell sakes, come on man! haha

Sorry Monte, but for the average user, the Holley stuff is way over priced, and a system can be built by "Billy Bob" for way less. If you swapped a Holley ECU into my car, and everything remained the same, it would be MORE expensive. there is no getting around it.

I am sure some day when I go to grab that 4th kit of nitrous and it's not there, I will regret my MS3X install.

I am on your side here ya know, I don't know why you are getting so pissed off at me. I am providing options for the OP, and I have backed your system in every post... It's a nicer system, It has more options, (or does it??) most not needed. It's much more refined, however it is also not as user serviceable and costs more.... And you know what?? THATS OK!!

The MS3X has ALL of the features listed above and is not even half of the cost of the MS3 Pro. The ONLY thing the Pro has on the 3 is it is fully assembled (you can get a MS3X assembled too for far less) and it is in a sealed case.

I run MS3X and have more features and inputs/outputs than I can possibly utilize, and I am running dual wide bands, dual knock sensors, sequential fuel/spark, launch control, closed loop idle, a multitude of output LED's, tach output, fuel pressure sensor, oil pressure sensor, A/C control, and probably a few other things I cannot remember. And I still have unused channels!

I'm also using it to talk to an MS2 based TCM via CAN for integrated shift control.

Heck, they both even use the same software. So unless you need a water submersible super tough ECU for an off road vehicle, a V12 engine, or really like shiny boxes and have a lot of disposable income, there is no reason to get a Pro.

A fully assembled MS3X starts at $660 minus the harness. If you want knock control and a harness add another $150. If you can solder, save yourself another couple hundred and assemble it yourself like I did.

The MS3X and Pro both blow the Holley system out of the water with the ridiculous amount of features and flexibility they offer, but in all reality most people probably won't even be able to utilize half of it. If you want a basic port injection set up, you can even use an MS1 or MS2 with great results.

Here's my write up with Megasquirt if anybody is interested....

http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=100689.45

The MS3X has ALL of the features listed above and is not even half of the cost of the MS3 Pro. The ONLY thing the Pro has on the 3 is it is fully assembled (you can get a MS3X assembled too for far less) and it is in a sealed case.

I run MS3X and have more features and inputs/outputs than I can possibly utilize, and I am running dual wide bands, dual knock sensors, sequential fuel/spark, launch control, closed loop idle, a multitude of output LED's, tach output, fuel pressure sensor, oil pressure sensor, A/C control, and probably a few other things I cannot remember. And I still have unused channels!

I'm also using it to talk to an MS2 based TCM via CAN for integrated shift control.

Heck, they both even use the same software. So unless you need a water submersible super tough ECU for an off road vehicle, a V12 engine, or really like shiny boxes and have a lot of disposable income, there is no reason to get a Pro.

A fully assembled MS3X starts at $660 minus the harness. If you want knock control and a harness add another $150. If you can solder, save yourself another couple hundred and assemble it yourself like I did.

The MS3X and Pro both blow the Holley system out of the water with the ridiculous amount of features and flexibility they offer, but in all reality most people probably won't even be able to utilize half of it. If you want a basic port injection set up, you can even use an MS1 or MS2 with great results.

Here's my write up with Megasquirt if anybody is interested....

http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=100689.45

I wanted the Holley stuff really bad, I fell in love with it when Roadkill did the engine swap and EFI conversion at PRI awhile back.

I quickly crapped my pants as I added up parts, I wanted room to grow so I wanted the top system. I think(summit) $1800 gets you the top ECU, then you have to add in cost for Different Harnesses etc. I cried a little bit and kind of forgot about it.

Then came Redmist with his MS3X build and it got my wheels turning. It wasn't long before I bought the MS3X kit and proceeded to assemble it myself. It was pretty fun and my son was just a few months old so I was always home and it was easy to work on during his many naps. It for sure took longer, and it was more work, but I had lots more time than I had money at the time(who ever has both?) and I really enjoyed building it.

I ordered a Spectra Performance CR9CFI Fuel tank with internal pump from Amazon ($366.02) to try out. I will post more info on this when I get it.