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Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: sasquatch] #1851945
06/18/15 04:29 PM
06/18/15 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted By sasquatch
Plug the valve covers up and put some air in it and try soap bubbling the seal area. I know of several top shelf mopar engine builders who are ready to rip their hair out right now over these dang seals.
Todd


Forgot to mention that--On attempt #4 I rigged an air fitting right where the sending unit comes out of the back of the block. I pressurized it with up to 5 psi and sprayed the crank flange--no bubbles. I realize I may have to pressurize crankcase but really at that point I may as well dyno it and bring it up to temp. I have already proven it a few times--no leaks until you rev it up @ temperature.Thanks though. J.Rob


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Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: RAMM] #1851953
06/18/15 04:45 PM
06/18/15 04:45 PM
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It might pay to try an electric vacuum pump off a new car. They can be bought pretty cheap. Pretty sure Summit even carries one now.


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Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: JCCuda] #1851973
06/18/15 05:08 PM
06/18/15 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted By JCCuda
Originally Posted By poppaj
There is a small oil pressure relief hole drilled in the block in the rear. It relives full pressure from the rear seal. Went thru the same problems a couple of years ago on a low deck motor, fought it all year found relief hole and cleaned it out Problem solved


I am not aware of this hole. Does anyone have a picture that shows the location of this hole?

The hole is just over the main bearing, it was clogged with machining debris I must add this was on a Indy Maxx aluminum block, but is was causing the exact problem you have


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Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: poppaj] #1852021
06/18/15 06:21 PM
06/18/15 06:21 PM
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Here's the 3 retainers that have been tried. You can see the clearancing for the studs/nuts. J.Rob

retainers.jpgretainers.jpg

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Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: RAMM] #1852022
06/18/15 06:22 PM
06/18/15 06:22 PM
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have you tried another retainer?

Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: RAMM] #1852027
06/18/15 06:27 PM
06/18/15 06:27 PM
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Studying this closely I think I may have to provide more clearance between the #5 cap rear and the "deflector" on the crank. The black squiggle is where I could machine .057" off. It may do the trick. I really don't think there is any issue with the seal itself. I am leaning towards a severe oil/pressure buildup that NO seal can handle. I'm also starting to think the windage tray should be left out to provide more room between the rear counterweight and the cap. J.Rob

440rearcap.jpgmill440cap.jpg

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Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: RAMM] #1852034
06/18/15 06:36 PM
06/18/15 06:36 PM
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Canada north shore lake Ontari...
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Did you happen to tank the block really good before the rebuild. I read a piece by Rick Ehrenburg a few years ago and he stated that some blocks because of poor manufacturing were porous at the rear and were sealed by some coating applied to the block at the factory.He warned about possible oil leaks after a good tank cleaning as it could remove this sealant. In your case it may be seeping just above the crank and presenting itself as a seal leak. I sure feel for you on this one.
Ross

Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: ross] #1852151
06/18/15 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted By ross
RAMM
Did you happen to tank the block really good before the rebuild. I read a piece by Rick Ehrenburg a few years ago and he stated that some blocks because of poor manufacturing were porous at the rear and were sealed by some coating applied to the block at the factory.He warned about possible oil leaks after a good tank cleaning as it could remove this sealant. In your case it may be seeping just above the crank and presenting itself as a seal leak. I sure feel for you on this one.
Ross


This is actually something the customer suggested to me this morning. I do not have a hot tank but I do have a very good jetwash. It was suggested that I could have cleaned out or dislodged some material that was previously blocking some porosity. I will coat with Glyptol tomorrow as it is not difficult to do. Thanks, J.rob


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Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: RAMM] #1852212
06/18/15 10:13 PM
06/18/15 10:13 PM
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OK,,, I have been through this hell before.
I had my 383 engine built by the best in the business; a professional, 30 year, race engine shop.
First run it leaked on the stand. Second seal...leaked on the stand.
We pulled it apart 4 times.
We checked and sent the crank out to an expert. Perfect crank.

Finally...
He tore the engine down to the bare block. Checked everything with a micrometer. After measuring and researching we found that a small percentage of MOPAR block rear main seal retaining threads are drilled off to one side, ever so slightly. It is literately thousands of an inch off. Enough for a small leak according to Felpro.

He eventually used an OEM rear main seal retainer (they have some slop in the side to side placement. Driver to passenger side movement). He shimmed the retainer to one side the distance it needed to go to center the retainer exactly over the crank and to pull the weak side seal over to the crank surface. If you look closely you will see the weak seal side against the crank. also you will need to have the seal slightly off center in the block and retainer to have the retainer grab and pull the weak side over to the crank as you push the retainer to one side.

This is about component machine errors. DO NOT believe in crap like the type of knurling on the crank end, Rope seal fixes, and other non-mathematical crap. It's all about tolerances and measurements. Something has to be measurably wrong. either the crank is off or the retainer/block is off.
Don't grind the retainer to make it tighter. Look at the seal as it presses all the way around the crank. I believe he said he used a snap gauge to measure the exact distance it was off from center and that measurement is what he used to push the retainer over.

My engine builder now checks every MOPAR block for this error. He spent months on my engine and cost him time and money that he does not want to go through again.

It was a nightmare. I feel your pain. My engine is now dry and runs strong.

Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: smos001] #1852216
06/18/15 10:21 PM
06/18/15 10:21 PM
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Smos011, if you took pics of your seal being off, can you post them?
I'm fighting the same issue on my 70 383 Mag. I was just about to loosen
the caps & do the rope seal thing, but your situation has me wondering.

Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: Triggerfish] #1852235
06/18/15 10:47 PM
06/18/15 10:47 PM
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I don't have a good pic of the problem.
But, I am telling you this is the problem. I talked to some real experts on this. It's about components. It's about math. You have to measure everything. Something is out of tolerances. Things don't fix a leak because of knurling or smooth polish on the crank surface, grooves in bearings, or the grinding of OEM retainers.Ropes seal don't last and 1960 and 70s era motors did not have rope seals. It's about tolerances.

when we found the measurable problem. We did not even have to test the solution on the stand. We knew we had solved the problem.



Here is one guys solution that started our research I found on another site. He was very helpful. Our solution was similar but using micrometers. His discussion saved my engine (he was a saint!):


Install The rear main lip seal half in the block "flush" with the cap parting line.
Install the Crank.
If your Lip Seal compression on one side, is less than the other under close inspection with a light, with the Crank in the block, you have a potential for a leaky main.
Gently, using a small screwdriver, GENTLY, insert it behind the offending side of poor compression, and "eyeball" the amount required to equal Lip compression "side to side".
DO NOT damage the back of the seal with the screwdriver. It doesn't take much.
Record the amount required to move the lip seal into equal compression.

Now dis-assemble.

Re-assemble this time, with the Block side Rear Seal lip half protruding approx. 1/4" above the parting line on the offending side.
Reverse the same Seal offset installation in the Retainer.
Now use the Retainer when installing, to CAPTURE and DRAG the offending poor contact side over into proper seal lip compression, the same amount as you recorded earlier, as you Tighten & Torque the Seal Retianer into place.
Silicon up the sides of the Seal Retainer to the Block, deleting the paper inserts. (The paper side inserts probably won't go in anyways due to the Retainer offset installation)

Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: RAMM] #1852243
06/18/15 11:07 PM
06/18/15 11:07 PM
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WOW, this is a helpful and interesting topic. Can't wait to see what actually worked to fix this.


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Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: 9secondsatellite] #1852244
06/18/15 11:07 PM
06/18/15 11:07 PM
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southern conn
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Had a rear main seal tryed evry thing the fix. In my case had a aluminum tool made that fit the seal and fit in the main bairing put the lower seal cap on then shine a flashlight from the back the seal was to low at the block shimed the up worked grate. will never install a rear seal without testing the fit.


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Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: smos001] #1852277
06/18/15 11:38 PM
06/18/15 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted By smos001
OK,,, I have been through this hell before.
I had my 383 engine built by the best in the business; a professional, 30 year, race engine shop.
First run it leaked on the stand. Second seal...leaked on the stand.
We pulled it apart 4 times.
We checked and sent the crank out to an expert. Perfect crank.

Finally...
He tore the engine down to the bare block. Checked everything with a micrometer. After measuring and researching we found that a small percentage of MOPAR block rear main seal retaining threads are drilled off to one side, ever so slightly. It is literately thousands of an inch off. Enough for a small leak according to Felpro.

He eventually used an OEM rear main seal retainer (they have some slop in the side to side placement. Driver to passenger side movement). He shimmed the retainer to one side the distance it needed to go to center the retainer exactly over the crank and to pull the weak side seal over to the crank surface. If you look closely you will see the weak seal side against the crank. also you will need to have the seal slightly off center in the block and retainer to have the retainer grab and pull the weak side over to the crank as you push the retainer to one side.

This is about component machine errors. DO NOT believe in crap like the type of knurling on the crank end, Rope seal fixes, and other non-mathematical crap. It's all about tolerances and measurements. Something has to be measurably wrong. either the crank is off or the retainer/block is off.
Don't grind the retainer to make it tighter. Look at the seal as it presses all the way around the crank. I believe he said he used a snap gauge to measure the exact distance it was off from center and that measurement is what he used to push the retainer over.

My engine builder now checks every MOPAR block for this error. He spent months on my engine and cost him time and money that he does not want to go through again.

It was a nightmare. I feel your pain. My engine is now dry and runs strong.


Thankyou and yes I have noticed this same thing time and time again. On attempt #4 I influenced the retainer to the side in order to increase contact on the weak side. I am aware of this, I have even taken measurements and shimmed fore and aft. I am all about the tolerances and my instincts say a rubber/PTFE/ whatever seal can take up a lot of misalignment. I am dealing with something dynamic--not static. Thanks for the response though. J.Rob


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Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: 1969gtx] #1852285
06/18/15 11:43 PM
06/18/15 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted By 1969gtx
Had a rear main seal tryed evry thing the fix. In my case had a aluminum tool made that fit the seal and fit in the main bairing put the lower seal cap on then shine a flashlight from the back the seal was to low at the block shimed the up worked grate. will never install a rear seal without testing the fit.


This is exactly the next step! I am machining a "stub" that will sit in the main journal and feature the seal journal to eliminate the crank flange. I want to "see" WTF is going on without the damn crank flange in the way. Thanks again! J.Rob

Last edited by RAMM; 06/18/15 11:44 PM.

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Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: Monte_Smith] #1852290
06/18/15 11:46 PM
06/18/15 11:46 PM
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Byron, NY
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Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
Never seen or heard of a hole, that relieves pressure off the seal.

Ramm, just try the sealing ends 90* apart can't hurt. And like I said, I never glue the seal in the block or retainer. Just place it in there. Place lower half of seal, put crank in, then take upper half of seal and work it around crank until you parting lines at 90*. Then put the retainer in


iagree


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Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: W.I.N. Racing] #1852311
06/19/15 12:05 AM
06/19/15 12:05 AM
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I have been putting big block mopars together for close to 50 years and never had a leak, except the stud/pan problem mentioned earlier,lucky I guess. I haven't turned a seal 90 degree's but have off set them maybe 3/8" , never has a seal leak. Now watch the next one will pour put like there's no seal in it at all. I think this block is outa wack.


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Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: RAMM] #1852376
06/19/15 03:16 AM
06/19/15 03:16 AM
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All this is exactly the reason I say put the seal in the block FIRST, with the ends at 12 and 6 oclock. Then you do whatever you have to do to make the retainer slide over that seal cleanly and freely, with NO influence either direction. With it all dry and no bolts, drop the retainer on and see how it feels and look in the holes to see if it is where it NEEDS to be, not where the bolts, or those idiotic side seals put it. One thing to understand.......the SEAL is what seals the crank. The retainer only holds the seal where it needs to be. With the seal in the block around the crank, the seal IS where it needs to be. Now make the retainer cleanly hold it. This is a piss poor design and always has been, but not unfixable. You need to drill the retainer holes out, drill them, makes no difference. This is NOT a critical piece. It ONLY holds the seal, nothing else. It's just not this hard

Other motors with two piece seals don't have this issue. The reason, is the seal is retained by the rear cap and is always consistent and goes on where it should every time. BBM doesn't have that luxury but is not hard to MAKE it work in a similar way.

If you have never had a BBM rear seal leak.........you simply haven't built enough of them. But since I started doing the above procedure....30 years ago or more........no more leaks

Many also want to "face" the retainer on the bottom, to make sure it sits flush. It MAY need it, but usually not. This generally just makes the seal groove not round any more and changes the crush. If you do that and put the seal where the ends are flush with block and retainer, it will NEVER seal. Its an easy measurement to determine if the retainer NEEDS a shave. Don't do it "just because"

Last edited by Monte_Smith; 06/19/15 03:37 AM.
Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: RAMM] #1852430
06/19/15 10:06 AM
06/19/15 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted By RAMM
Studying this closely I think I may have to provide more clearance between the #5 cap rear and the "deflector" on the crank. The black squiggle is where I could machine .057" off. It may do the trick. I really don't think there is any issue with the seal itself. I am leaning towards a severe oil/pressure buildup that NO seal can handle. I'm also starting to think the windage tray should be left out to provide more room between the rear counterweight and the cap. J.Rob


Here is how the cap looks after machining. There is about double the room between the back of the cap and the deflector now. I figure it can't hurt. Also I am going to try Monte's method of seal installation. Also reassembling WITHOUT windage tray. Back on the dyno later today. J.Rob

440cap.JPGseal.JPG

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Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: RAMM] #1852455
06/19/15 11:10 AM
06/19/15 11:10 AM
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Stop grinding...
Just my 2 cents. But without a measured mathematical problem, you chasing ghosts.

Check the crank for errors. Check the block for errors.

Also, rear main seals have very little pressure on them. The oil that they stop from pushing through is from splash oil. It's not a pressure seal. It's mostly a barrier seal. You have a gap somewhere in the crank to seal lip.

Either the crank is out of tolerance or the block is off.

I know this is frustrating. I was there. Lots of advice. Most is urban legend. I even bought a rope seal at one point. Engine builder laughed. Refused to put an inferior product in the engine that would eventually fail. I was to the point of buying a new block.

My engine builder did build a aluminum billet crank plug to the exact specs of the crank. He used that to look at the issue.

Again, it's about the seal to the crank surfaces.

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