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Re: 650 HP street car?????
[Re: belv2vert66]
#181455
01/04/09 10:56 PM
01/04/09 10:56 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,384
Madison Wi
NTOLERANCE
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,384
Madison Wi
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Is a 500hp engine with a 150hp shot of nitrous out of the question? Too many people poo-poo nitrous.... IMO  Youre not competitively racing in a class that prohibits nitrous. Just a thought.... 
I used to care but....... things have changed
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Re: 650 HP street car?????
[Re: belv2vert66]
#181456
01/05/09 02:33 AM
01/05/09 02:33 AM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,402
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,402
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
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Quote:
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be carefull what you wish for. yes, you can build a maintence free 511 that makes 650hp. but is the rest of the car up to the task? you may not be turning wrenches on the engine but i assure you that you will be turning them somewhere. if your car isnt ready, you will be disappointed in its performance and have your butt handed to you be a chevy making 400 hp
Yup. A well set-up car can really make the difference.What does your '62 have done to it, to make sure that +600hp isn't going to take and put your drive shaft into orbit and hurt the heck out of the floor boards?
I can't describe the reaction I felt from Wize's video on a family site....anyway... I would do anything for a motor like that..... But your point on the whole car working is close to me in that I watch a local guy here with a very simply built very clean Duster with a 360 that just put's it on guy after guy with their radical HP motors. But the thing leaves like a rocket, doesn't spin, doesn't break, He shuts it off, doesn't touch it for a week, gets in it and does it again. It just plain makes a lot of those guys upset, Chevy, Ford or Mopar. He does it all the time......That being said......I'm gonna go watch Wize's vid again and check to see how much room I have on my credit card......
I bracket raced for years, and it takes two seasons typically to extract everything out of a combination. My '72 340, pump gas, almost stock, Cuda ran a 13.3s pass first time out...Year later 12.0 flat at 114mph with a super consistant 60ft of 1.60...with the same almost everything, but optimized. Car was lethal in the foot brake class. It would run high 10's on 125 shot of NOS or 12.0 all day in the heat. I like doing things right, and trust me, a 400hp car on the street, with everything done right, is down right evil...
http://s427.photobucket.com/albums/pp357/cudahalr/72Cuda340/
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Re: 650 HP street car?????
[Re: Dragula]
#181459
01/05/09 09:55 PM
01/05/09 09:55 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,876
Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,876
Weddington, N.C.
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Having built big blocks anywhere from near stock ~400hp to 750+ (6-71 blown) I can tell you the single most important factor is HEAT...the more powerful the motor the more heat it pushes through the drivetrain. on the street , reagardless of the maximum power you are very seldom tapping all of it, in fact my current motor I barely have to tap the gas and sometimes I leave the stop sign in second gear (manual VB auto). I will say most people Think "Strip" but should build more street oriented motors that are tractible and don't want or need a ton of stall which to my way of driving is little more than a waste of a lot of fat juicy grunt. Case in point, my friend's 440 six pack 70 Charger runs high 11's at 114+ mph with a stock stall and 3.23 gears....idles at 900 rpm and has plenty of torque all over the powerband. He drives 70 miles to the track (charlotte to rockingham).....could he run 11.50's with 4.10 gears and a "correct" (the typical 'race only' advice) 4000 stall converter? Sure he could but that couple tenths (to him) isn't worth losing that much of the highway cruise and part throttle drivability. To be fair with a slick (that might otherwise bog) you you need a lot of stall/flash to come off the line but what's Ideal for a slick surely won't work on a most street tires (otherthan DOT Cheaters). So very much of it depends what your set-up is going to be. It's what you want to wind up with that determines how you should build. The advantage of stroker cubes are you can Cam up what would be "radical" for a 360 or 440 but might otherwise be borderline streetable....with a stroker you pack in an additional 60+ cubes to put the streetability back in it. I typically advise for ~600-650 HP to essentially build around what would make for a reliable (though borderline steetable) ~525-550HP+ at 6000rpm in a 440...then take the heads and induction a little bit further in order to carry the displacement to a comparable RPM. Or to look at it another way 6000RPM power peak in a 500" motor would be a cam and induction that would take a 440" motor to roughly 6600-6800 and produce the same power. To build a 440 for that high a power peak probably wouldn't make for a practical street motor in most cases. In simplist terms Displacement x 1/2 RPM (4 stroke)/1728 (cubic inches in a cubic foot) times VE is your airflow. Here's another nugget....when you have a better flowing/more efficient head you often don't need as much cam timing to keep the motor happy (making power) up in the higher RPM....that's what I mean when I say I build the shortblock for torque and the heads/induction for horsepower....find the best overall "fit" for the way you want the motor to run. Sometimes to build for and hit a certain target you can work backwards from an already proven Result and get pretty close.
Last edited by Streetwize; 01/05/09 10:12 PM.
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Re: 650 HP street car?????
[Re: Streetwize]
#181461
01/05/09 10:21 PM
01/05/09 10:21 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 416
London,Ontario,Canada
1962Savoy
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 416
London,Ontario,Canada
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Quote:
Here's my 517 (4.375" bore B motor, 4.30" stroke)...it's got some pretty killer heads and a hydraulic roller but I can assure you it's perfectly streetable at the 700hp range. I cruise in traffic all the time, never runs hot, never loads up, razor sharp throttle response and great street manners are 100% required whenever I do a motor.
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=jd8GeXYYkKU&feature=channel_page]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd8GeXYYkKU&feature=channel_page[/url]
so 650 is perfectly doable....so long as you build from a solid foundation of a wise selection of parts, excellent machine work and careful assembly. (A top notch cooling system is a must too for those days when you get caught in a summer traffic jam). With the right cam, compression inductio nad stall/gearing it can be perfectly docile and tractible in street traffic....but whenever you nail it....all  will break loose!!
BOING!!!!
That sounds sweet 
I want one too 
could you list the build or pm me??
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Re: 650 HP street car?????
[Re: 383man]
#181462
01/05/09 10:26 PM
01/05/09 10:26 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 416
London,Ontario,Canada
1962Savoy
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 416
London,Ontario,Canada
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Quote:
How fast do you want to go if you dont mind me asking ? I only ask because my very mild 440 is putting out around 500 flywheel hp and runs mid 11's at 3700 lbs. If I had 650 HP with the right torque I feel I could run mid 10's. What I mean is a nice 650 hp stroker should push your 62 to easy mid 10's with a decent suspension and the right gear. Ron
Thats were i want to go mid 10's 
I know the chassis is going to need some improvements but i have the 650hp trermec 5 speed now and prolly going about this side ways but i'm a newby in this stuff and im learning thanks to you guys!!!!
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Re: 650 HP street car?????
[Re: Dragula]
#181463
01/05/09 10:33 PM
01/05/09 10:33 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 416
London,Ontario,Canada
1962Savoy
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 416
London,Ontario,Canada
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Quote:
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be carefull what you wish for. yes, you can build a maintence free 511 that makes 650hp. but is the rest of the car up to the task? you may not be turning wrenches on the engine but i assure you that you will be turning them somewhere. if your car isnt ready, you will be disappointed in its performance and have your butt handed to you be a chevy making 400 hp
Yup. A well set-up car can really make the difference.What does your '62 have done to it, to make sure that +600hp isn't going to take and put your drive shaft into orbit and hurt the heck out of the floor boards?
WELL NOT MUCH YET!! 
I do have a 8-3/4 742 posi 391 rearend and a tremec 650hp 5 speed tranny.
I need to tie the frame rails yet and possibly get a dana rear but that will all come in time
like i said earleir im may be going at it sideways but im learning 
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Re: 650 HP street car?????
[Re: NTOLERANCE]
#181464
01/05/09 10:35 PM
01/05/09 10:35 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 416
London,Ontario,Canada
1962Savoy
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 416
London,Ontario,Canada
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Quote:
Is a 500hp engine with a 150hp shot of nitrous out of the question?
Too many people poo-poo nitrous.... IMO
Youre not competitively racing in a class that prohibits nitrous.
Just a thought....
I want to do this on all motor and no juice
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Re: 650 HP street car?????
[Re: 1962Savoy]
#181466
01/05/09 10:49 PM
01/05/09 10:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,876
Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,876
Weddington, N.C.
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Tremecs can be pretty hard to shift fast up near their max HP (torque) levels. Basic run-down of my combo: 517" low deck 12:1 (runs on ~50/50 93/100 but will run on 93) JE "D" dish N20 Pistons +.003 over deck Chapman Stage VI max wedge heads (flow 285@.400/330@.500/362 @.600/380 @.750) 4.30 Stroke (4.15" offset ground 2.200 journals by DRAM) 6.535 rods, .990 pin 2241g bobweight Indy MW 440-2d...fully ported Cam: Hydraulic roller...My own spec but it's ~ mid 260's @.050 & .620 lift Headers custom modified Hooker 1 7/8 primary 3 1/2" collectors, jet-hotted. 3 1/2 to 3" x pipe Dynomax Hemi turbos TTI tailpipes & ntips...it'd be way too loud with straight-through muffs like Ultraflows. Carb: custom spec Pro-systems 1000hp Block work: Mike at Midland Machine/Midland NC Chenoweth Scraper and customized Milodon tray Custom 9 1/2" PTC converter ~3200 stall/4400 flash 3.54 Dana. The 727 I trusted at 600hp is coming out (thanks for the unfortunate wake-up call Chip!) I'll be going to either a red stripe 4 speed or a conventional spread 833 with 4.10 gears & cal tracs soon. ~30 yrs of BB MoPar tuning tricks BTW...this motor(with only slightly larger induction/cam/exhaust) was originally intended to go into a 9 second A body bracket car project that didn't quite work out (couldn't find the right car for the right $$)....so it found itself in my 70 Charger R/T. I know there's an easy 75hp more in the combo with just a single plane/dommy a solid roller with .700+ lift and 2 -2 1/8 steps but....Sometimes unintended consequences work out pretty nice.
Last edited by Streetwize; 01/05/09 10:57 PM.
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Re: 650 HP street car?????
[Re: 1962Savoy]
#181468
01/05/09 11:13 PM
01/05/09 11:13 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,314
Carstairs, Alberta, Canada
dave571
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,314
Carstairs, Alberta, Canada
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Quote:
I do have a 8-3/4 742 posi 391 rearend and a tremec 650hp 5 speed tranny.....
I need to tie the frame rails yet and possibly get a dana rear but that will all come in time
.......
Don't even bother with the 8 3/4. This power level with a manual trans it will be junk in no time. Sell it while it's still in one piece.
I don't think there is even a 8 3/4 lover on the board who will disagree here.
As for the thread in general, I think it's doable, as long as you are realistic about the cash. Biggest stroker you can do.
There is a guy in lethbridge. "Joss technical" Wayne is the guy. He builds crazy big stroker motors, and may eb worth a talking too since he's on our side of the border.
(not knocking any american vendors at all, it can just be a pain to get big stuff across the border)
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Re: 650 HP street car?????
[Re: Streetwize]
#181470
01/05/09 11:29 PM
01/05/09 11:29 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 416
London,Ontario,Canada
1962Savoy
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 416
London,Ontario,Canada
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Quote:
Tremecs can be pretty hard to shift fast up near their max HP (torque) levels.
Basic run-down of my combo:
517" low deck 12:1 (runs on ~50/50 93/100 but will run on 93)
JE "D" dish N20 Pistons +.003 over deck
Chapman Stage VI max wedge heads (flow [Email]285@.400/330@.500/362[/Email] @.600/380 @.750)
4.30 Stroke (4.15" offset ground 2.200 journals by DRAM)
6.535 rods, .990 pin
2241g bobweight
Indy MW 440-2d...fully ported
Cam: Hydraulic roller...My own spec but it's ~ mid 260's @.050 & .620 lift
Headers custom modified Hooker 1 7/8 primary 3 1/2" collectors, jet-hotted.
3 1/2 to 3" x pipe Dynomax Hemi turbos TTI tailpipes & ntips...it'd be way too loud with straight-through muffs like Ultraflows.
Carb: custom spec Pro-systems 1000hp
Block work: Mike at Midland Machine/Midland NC
Chenoweth Scraper and customized Milodon tray
Custom 9 1/2" PTC converter ~3200 stall/4400 flash
3.54 Dana.
The 727 I trusted at 600hp is coming out (thanks for the unfortunate wake-up call Chip!)
I'll be going to either a red stripe 4 speed or a conventional spread 833 with 4.10 gears & cal tracs soon.
~30 yrs of BB MoPar tuning tricks
BTW...this motor(with only slightly larger induction/cam/exhaust) was originally intended to go into a 9 second A body bracket car project that didn't quite work out (couldn't find the right car for the right $$)....so it found itself in my 70 Charger R/T. I know there's an easy 75hp more in the combo with just a single plane/dommy a solid roller with .700+ lift and 2 -2 1/8 steps but....Sometimes unintended consequences work out pretty nice.
Thanks Bro 4 the info... i havent picked a builder yet but i like this info!!
I figured the 8 3/4 wouldn't last so this is why the dana 60 down the road.
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Re: 650 HP street car?????
[Re: 1962Savoy]
#181471
01/06/09 12:23 AM
01/06/09 12:23 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
sixpackgut
Drag Week Mod Champion
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Drag Week Mod Champion
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
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dana, fuel system, cooling system, suspension, chassis, driveline and safety will all need to be addressed in short order. because i dont have money, i have been chipping away at that same list for over 5 years the cooling system itself can make you lose your mind till you find the right combination but you may not have those same issues since palm trees dont grow there
Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135
Follow @g3hemiswap on instagram
performance only racing, CRT, ultimate converter, superior design concepts, ThumperCarbs
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Re: 650 HP street car?????
[Re: dave571]
#181472
01/06/09 10:28 PM
01/06/09 10:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,907
Athens, Greece
Pyper70
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,907
Athens, Greece
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Hey Street....
Why is the 727 doomed? What is your back up plan?
Is the 8 3/4 really going to be toast with a powerplant like yours?
I am still gathering my parts for my build as I have other responsibilities taking over currently. I pretty much have all the parts from the dual quad up top to the stroker crank at the bottom and everything in between. Only thing I am unsure of is the rest of the drivetrain. Guy I bought the 727 from said it could take a beating of about 550hp before I see problems, he rebuilt it as he does that on the side for cash.....I should mention there is a Gear Vendors OD on it....will the GVO remain intact for the ride? My entire suspension is 5000 miles old with subrames connectors welded to the floor. Front and Rear Sway Bars.
My desire for the stroker is along the same lines as the original poster. Comes out a few times a month, probably no drag racing since there aren't any of those in this country. 11:1 440 with a 4.15 crank bored 60 over, I have already purchased the .541 roller. 6.76 H-Beams, and topped off with Stock Eddy heads. Probably still about 12 months out from even assembling my engine stand but research is grand and experience is golden.
Family owned 1969 Charger R/T DualQuad 440/727/GVO/3.55s
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Re: 650 HP street car?????
[Re: Pyper70]
#181473
01/06/09 10:41 PM
01/06/09 10:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,876
Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,876
Weddington, N.C.
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Pete,
My buddy Chip had his similar build 727 Fragg and about blew the floorboards out of his very nice Cuda. I could build my tranny for 700HP and more but it's an original 4 speed car so......it's my preference to do that.
As for the rear, My car has a Dana the heavier the car the more instantaneous the shock load to the rear, the 8 3/4 is a stout piece up to it's limit but when you get over 600 hp you are approaching 2 times the factory horsepower it was designed for. Mopar put hte Dana in the 4 speed and trac pack 440's and Hemis for a reason. A full perimeter weld of the tubes is a big step inthe right direction if you want any rear to withstand even occasional abuse.
Last edited by Streetwize; 01/06/09 10:42 PM.
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