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Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? [Re: 1jeff] #1796041
04/04/15 09:14 PM
04/04/15 09:14 PM
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 15
Delaware,USA
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1jeff Offline OP
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1jeff  Offline OP
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Joined: Apr 2015
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Delaware,USA
I do want to make the car capable of running faster. How I am going to use that has yet to be determined, I foresee a throttle stop in my future. I do not have a power or et goal in mind. The car will cert., it has. I don't like the heat, wearing a 3 layer suit in the middle of the summer does not appeal to me. But I can if I want to!
My local tack switched to Ihra this year and is starting a index program, one class will be 10.00. Yep, interested! I haven't talked to the track or really looked at the Ihra rule book to see what the differences are.
Going from a iron headed 440 to a aluminum headed 4oo will take some weight out and a good set of heads are going to make some more power. I am a bracket racer and have not been bitten by the go faster bug. Running super at my local track I'm being chased 99% of the time and I'm good with that. Lots of low 9, 8 and 7 second cars. I refuse to spend that kind of money to bracket race. If I can't be competitive the car will be for sale.
I understand from everything I've read that alcohol is more consistent. I know absolutely nothing about it. How bad is the learning curve?

Last edited by 1jeff; 04/04/15 10:45 PM.
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? [Re: 1jeff] #1796042
04/05/15 02:15 PM
04/05/15 02:15 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
RodStRace Offline
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RodStRace  Offline
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Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
It's been a while, but alky if you can get consistant fuel easily is a better route.

The plugs are harder to read, 02s can fool you until you get a good baseline, but it's much more forgiving and the sweet spot is wider, making it better for all day events where you run at 10AM, 4PM and 9PM.
You will want that weather station to include water grains too. It's more affected by this than gas is.

I don't know about east coast weather, but out here if you want to run a 10.00 index, you want you be able to run a 9.8 or faster in the worst expected conditions (hot, muggy, low baro) and drop what it takes to run the number no matter what. Given you have a car, you should be able to plug in the numbers and come up with a target HP/torque/RPM and build with those expectations.
There are plenty of BB combos that can do the job, you have to decide what amount of money, maintenance and longevity you are willing to suffer.

Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? [Re: RodStRace] #1796043
04/05/15 02:57 PM
04/05/15 02:57 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,408
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula Offline
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Dragula  Offline
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Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
My experience, as a pump gas racer, watching the alky guys goof around with that fuel and the problems they have, and breaking out the fuel testers and such...Ain't worth it. All my stuff runs on the same fuel. The ATV, the generator, and the race car...can't beat that. And I only need to take 10g for a weekend of racing vs an entire drum and all the pumps and BS. We won the season on E10 93...I won three big races that year, and anything can be made consistent with time and good parts...

I am simple, and plenty of MBB combo's will make more than enough HP to kill a stock block on pump gas with today's heads. If you have a race fuel motor already, we have found Snow's water injection to work really well on 93 and 14:1...I would go that route long before I went to alky...And we have never had any cooling issues on pump, even round robin.

Last edited by Dragula; 04/05/15 02:58 PM.

'70 Cuda,...605 EFI Hemi Street Car (6.20 best pass, 1.33 60ft)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph from inside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zQEb9uxFng (6.25 at 108mph from outside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)

'66 Barracuda AWB Stretched nose Blown 440 Car in build stage

'71 Duster Drag Car 400 Low Deck 512 best 6.002 at 115.44mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znuo3jMUXTk
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? [Re: 1jeff] #1797135
04/07/15 08:54 AM
04/07/15 08:54 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,013
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart Offline
I Live Here
gregsdart  Offline
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Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
Somehow my last posts got deleted, so here is a repeat.
My thinking on going small motor was based on getting max life pout of a motor that will not overpower the tires even on a junk track, yet still make enough power to keep you at a 10.00, out of the expensive 9.99 or faster zone. One combo that would be dirt cheap would be to go with a 400 block, 7.10 rods, Ross 1.120 ch flat tops, a 383 crank cut to 3.54 stroke for 426 cubes. The biggest expense are pistons and rods, somebody will probably give you a crank! Compression with flat tops would be about 10.00, for pump 93. A 426 with a set of small port heads ought to make great power and still shift at 6400 rpm, about perfect with your current gears.


8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? [Re: 1jeff] #1797137
04/07/15 09:02 AM
04/07/15 09:02 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,013
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart Offline
I Live Here
gregsdart  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,013
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
Originally Posted By 1jeff
gregsdart ,

Care to elaborate on the keeping it small for my deal? Don't disagree by any means, just curios. I am extremely interested in the theory.
Badass car by the way!
Thanks!
Later you mentioned going faster. If you are going to cert the car for 8.50, then for a budget motor I would go with a 400 block, 4.25 stroke for 512 cubes, 12.5 compression on E85, and I would seriously look at the new trickflow heads and intake. The combo ought to make great power down low which works well with a glide, and make your car about as fast per $$ as you can build. [img]http://[/img]


8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? [Re: gregsdart] #1797185
04/07/15 10:50 AM
04/07/15 10:50 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,528
Mansfield, Tx
Jacob Pitt Offline
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Jacob Pitt  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,528
Mansfield, Tx
You could get 100 different answers for this question really, but it all comes down to what you want out of it. If you want a low maint deal that will run good but you're not concerned about rotating the earth I would go with a .030 or .055 over stock block 440 with a half fill and main studs. Buy a good stock stroke 440 rotating assembly with flat top pistons. When I say good I mean forged crank, rods, and pistons. A set of RPM heads and decent intake with a 950 gas or e85 carb. Build it to about 11to1 compression for pump gas or e85 with a small roller around .650ish. This combo in your light car would easily run 9's and would run forever. But that's just what I would do.


2013 NHRA D4 Stock Champ
#4 in the World IHRA Stock
2x IHRA Div.4 Stock Champ
14x Track Champ
All using a Ultimate Converter Concepts converter. Call Lenny today 704-892-6837
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? [Re: 1jeff] #1797277
04/07/15 12:30 PM
04/07/15 12:30 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,422
Pittsburgh PA
Eric Offline
top fuel
Eric  Offline
top fuel

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,422
Pittsburgh PA
The Arrow has a lowdeck 499 with CNC S/R's... Indy intake.. Comp .650 .. H/S rockers and a AED 1000cfm 4150. It's only around 12:1 and a pretty basic piece. With a glide 1.76 first gear and a UCC 5800 stall converter it's run deep in the 5.50's on the launch control. Weighs #2330 with driver.


5.53 @ 125 1/8th on the launch control..more left in her!

Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? [Re: Dragula] #1797830
04/07/15 09:03 PM
04/07/15 09:03 PM
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 15
Delaware,USA
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1jeff Offline OP
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1jeff  Offline OP
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Joined: Apr 2015
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Delaware,USA
Originally Posted By Dragula
My experience, as a pump gas racer, watching the alky guys goof around with that fuel and the problems they have, and breaking out the fuel testers and such...Ain't worth it. All my stuff runs on the same fuel. The ATV, the generator, and the race car...can't beat that. And I only need to take 10g for a weekend of racing vs an entire drum and all the pumps and BS. We won the season on E10 93...I won three big races that year, and anything can be made consistent with time and good parts...

I am simple, and plenty of MBB combo's will make more than enough HP to kill a stock block on pump gas with today's heads. If you have a race fuel motor already, we have found Snow's water injection to work really well on 93 and 14:1...I would go that route long before I went to alky...And we have never had any cooling issues on pump, even round robin.

Thanks for the reply!
The last engine would run on pump, 10:1 comp. with 280@ .050 cam. The po mixed 50/50. I drained the cell and filled it with 93. I've heard many say Race gas is more consistent. I didn't see any change in performance or consistency. 5 gal. fuel cell burnt about a quart a pass. I just topped it off after every pass and mixed the fuel I bought with what was left over in the can from the previous week.
The car has a good cooling system and a alternator. I can sit on the line for a long time without the temp. rising.
The new engine will be a pump gas deal. If for some reason I can't find the consistency I'm looking for I may make the switch.

Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? [Re: gregsdart] #1797832
04/07/15 09:05 PM
04/07/15 09:05 PM
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 15
Delaware,USA
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1jeff Offline OP
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1jeff  Offline OP
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Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 15
Delaware,USA
Originally Posted By gregsdart
Somehow my last posts got deleted, so here is a repeat.
My thinking on going small motor was based on getting max life pout of a motor that will not overpower the tires even on a junk track, yet still make enough power to keep you at a 10.00, out of the expensive 9.99 or faster zone. One combo that would be dirt cheap would be to go with a 400 block, 7.10 rods, Ross 1.120 ch flat tops, a 383 crank cut to 3.54 stroke for 426 cubes. The biggest expense are pistons and rods, somebody will probably give you a crank! Compression with flat tops would be about 10.00, for pump 93. A 426 with a set of small port heads ought to make great power and still shift at 6400 rpm, about perfect with your current gears.


There are some other posts missing as well. Thanks for the repeat!

Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? [Re: 1jeff] #1797974
04/07/15 10:50 PM
04/07/15 10:50 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 9,366
Lehigh Acres, Florida
rickstershemi Offline
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rickstershemi  Offline
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Posts: 9,366
Lehigh Acres, Florida
Originally Posted By 1jeff
I do want to make the car capable of running faster. How I am going to use that has yet to be determined, I foresee a throttle stop in my future. I do not have a power or et goal in mind. The car will cert., it has. I don't like the heat, wearing a 3 layer suit in the middle of the summer does not appeal to me. But I can if I want to!
My local tack switched to Ihra this year and is starting a index program, one class will be 10.00. Yep, interested! I haven't talked to the track or really looked at the Ihra rule book to see what the differences are.
Going from a iron headed 440 to a aluminum headed 4oo will take some weight out and a good set of heads are going to make some more power. I am a bracket racer and have not been bitten by the go faster bug. Running super at my local track I'm being chased 99% of the time and I'm good with that. Lots of low 9, 8 and 7 second cars. I refuse to spend that kind of money to bracket race. If I can't be competitive the car will be for sale.
I understand from everything I've read that alcohol is more consistent. I know absolutely nothing about it. How bad is the learning curve?


Did I hear Throttle Stop smile If you're looking at SST 10.90??? I would at least shoot for running 9.90 or 1-second under at the very least (more would be even better and at your weight shouldn't be all that hard. .02

Rickster


Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? [Re: rickstershemi] #1798114
04/08/15 12:16 AM
04/08/15 12:16 AM
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 15
Delaware,USA
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1jeff Offline OP
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1jeff  Offline OP
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Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 15
Delaware,USA
Originally Posted By rickstershemi
Originally Posted By 1jeff
I do want to make the car capable of running faster. How I am going to use that has yet to be determined, I foresee a throttle stop in my future. I do not have a power or et goal in mind. The car will cert., it has. I don't like the heat, wearing a 3 layer suit in the middle of the summer does not appeal to me. But I can if I want to!
My local tack switched to Ihra this year and is starting a index program, one class will be 10.00. Yep, interested! I haven't talked to the track or really looked at the Ihra rule book to see what the differences are.
Going from a iron headed 440 to a aluminum headed 4oo will take some weight out and a good set of heads are going to make some more power. I am a bracket racer and have not been bitten by the go faster bug. Running super at my local track I'm being chased 99% of the time and I'm good with that. Lots of low 9, 8 and 7 second cars. I refuse to spend that kind of money to bracket race. If I can't be competitive the car will be for sale.
I understand from everything I've read that alcohol is more consistent. I know absolutely nothing about it. How bad is the learning curve?


Did I hear Throttle Stop smile If you're looking at SST 10.90??? I would at least shoot for running 9.90 or 1-second under at the very least (more would be even better and at your weight shouldn't be all that hard. .02

Rickster


Oh yes you did! Local track is going to run some index races, one class is 10.00. Sounds like fun. Once I get the car together and learn to use the stop consistently I'd like to do some more of this type of racing. I wouldn't mind travelling a little.

Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? [Re: 1jeff] #1798140
04/08/15 12:26 AM
04/08/15 12:26 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,408
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula Offline
I Live Here
Dragula  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,408
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Originally Posted By 1jeff
Originally Posted By Dragula
My experience, as a pump gas racer, watching the alky guys goof around with that fuel and the problems they have, and breaking out the fuel testers and such...Ain't worth it. All my stuff runs on the same fuel. The ATV, the generator, and the race car...can't beat that. And I only need to take 10g for a weekend of racing vs an entire drum and all the pumps and BS. We won the season on E10 93...I won three big races that year, and anything can be made consistent with time and good parts...

I am simple, and plenty of MBB combo's will make more than enough HP to kill a stock block on pump gas with today's heads. If you have a race fuel motor already, we have found Snow's water injection to work really well on 93 and 14:1...I would go that route long before I went to alky...And we have never had any cooling issues on pump, even round robin.

Thanks for the reply!
The last engine would run on pump, 10:1 comp. with 280@ .050 cam. The po mixed 50/50. I drained the cell and filled it with 93. I've heard many say Race gas is more consistent. I didn't see any change in performance or consistency. 5 gal. fuel cell burnt about a quart a pass. I just topped it off after every pass and mixed the fuel I bought with what was left over in the can from the previous week.
The car has a good cooling system and a alternator. I can sit on the line for a long time without the temp. rising.
The new engine will be a pump gas deal. If for some reason I can't find the consistency I'm looking for I may make the switch.


If you go pump gas, there are two tricks to running it...Get it at the same station every week, and try and keep it as fresh as possible. I typically burn about 5g/ week and keep it fresh....With E10 it does not keep as well. That is why racing fuel tends to be better for some people. And the fact most race fuel is sold in lined drums or cans...


'70 Cuda,...605 EFI Hemi Street Car (6.20 best pass, 1.33 60ft)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph from inside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zQEb9uxFng (6.25 at 108mph from outside car)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9)

'66 Barracuda AWB Stretched nose Blown 440 Car in build stage

'71 Duster Drag Car 400 Low Deck 512 best 6.002 at 115.44mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znuo3jMUXTk
Re: Bracket engine, What would you build and why? [Re: 1jeff] #1798376
04/08/15 11:33 AM
04/08/15 11:33 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,422
Pittsburgh PA
Eric Offline
top fuel
Eric  Offline
top fuel

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,422
Pittsburgh PA
Wait till you start T/S racing...it's addictive for sure. I almost never bracket race if I can get to a S/R race instead. You live in a good area for IHRA Div 1 also. Not to bad a tow for any of the divisionals.


5.53 @ 125 1/8th on the launch control..more left in her!

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