Re: new dart mopar blocks !
[Re: Brian Hafliger]
#1772234
03/06/15 03:06 AM
03/06/15 03:06 AM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302 Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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I might have got a little excited, but I do stick behind this statement of ANY STOCK Charger RT ON THE STREET against a new RT. I think we all can say the aftermarket for us Mopar folks is stagnant and has been for a while. Im not saying the old stuff is junk because it is not at all, the old stuff is what got me hooked to begin with. I hope there is a future in this stuff SOMEWHERE that we can still own the crown other than Top Fuel. The LX/LC aftermarket is doing pretty damn good though all else considered.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: new dart mopar blocks !
[Re: 72Swinger]
#1772237
03/06/15 12:59 PM
03/06/15 12:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,817 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Master of nothing...
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Master of nothing...
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,817
Benton, IL.
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Quote:
The Gen III is where its at RIGHT NOW, you have drag racers loving them and an entire market of new Mopar gearheads with 2006 and newer hot rods that are putting blowers and turboes on by the 100's. One example, take ANY Charger RT from 68-71 and put it against my wifes 2012 Charger RT and I can promise you will see nothing but tail lights of my wifes car. Things are a changing guys.
While I admire your passion, you have let it run away with you on this one. You simply cannot support your conclusions in the real world.
The new generation of Hemis are a very good design and we are very fortunate to have them. BUT THEY CANNOT NOR WILL NOT REPLACE THE WEDGES AND 2ND GEN HEMIS AS THE "GO-TO" ENGINES FOR MOST MOPAR MUSCLE CAR GUYS!
And there are a ton of reasons for that. Here's a few: For there to be enough sales volume to justify new development and production of pieces for the new Hemi, non-racers will be the bulk of the buyers. Just like it was 40 or 50 years ago. And most street car guys will not be looking for big hard parts like blocks, cams, stoker kits for these new Hemis like they have been and still are for our old engines. And this thread is about lack of blocks for our much more popular old stuff.
Park your new R/T next to a 2nd gen R/T and look which gets the most attention at a car show. Especially from Mopar guys.
After you spend the coin to build up your new Hemi, you will then need to spend that much again on the drive train to hold the additional power.
While we still get some very good parts at reasonable prices at the salvage yards for our dinosaurs, there will not be much of that going on with the new stuff.
Most muscle car guys still can't tune a carb after all these decades and now you expect them to deal with electronics and computers? Dream on. Then there's Chrysler's closed architecture.
If handled wisely, our dinosaurs are an investment, more likely to appreciate than depreciate. What do you think happens to your new R/T's value when throw that blower on it, beat on it a few years and then want to sell it? How much of your money will you get back?
It takes much, much more of our disposable income today to play with these new toys than it did with the old ones. And household budgets matter to most of us. Frankly, far fewer guys have the time or the money to throw at beefing up these newer toys today. Especially given the depreciation involved.
Master, again and still
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Re: new dart mopar blocks !
[Re: DaveRS23]
#1772238
03/06/15 05:40 PM
03/06/15 05:40 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302 Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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Quote:
Quote:
The Gen III is where its at RIGHT NOW, you have drag racers loving them and an entire market of new Mopar gearheads with 2006 and newer hot rods that are putting blowers and turboes on by the 100's. One example, take ANY Charger RT from 68-71 and put it against my wifes 2012 Charger RT and I can promise you will see nothing but tail lights of my wifes car. Things are a changing guys.
While I admire your passion, you have let it run away with you on this one. You simply cannot support your conclusions in the real world.
The new generation of Hemis are a very good design and we are very fortunate to have them. BUT THEY CANNOT NOR WILL NOT REPLACE THE WEDGES AND 2ND GEN HEMIS AS THE "GO-TO" ENGINES FOR MOST MOPAR MUSCLE CAR GUYS!
And there are a ton of reasons for that. Here's a few: For there to be enough sales volume to justify new development and production of pieces for the new Hemi, non-racers will be the bulk of the buyers. Just like it was 40 or 50 years ago. And most street car guys will not be looking for big hard parts like blocks, cams, stoker kits for these new Hemis like they have been and still are for our old engines. And this thread is about lack of blocks for our much more popular old stuff.
Park your new R/T next to a 2nd gen R/T and look which gets the most attention at a car show. Especially from Mopar guys.
After you spend the coin to build up your new Hemi, you will then need to spend that much again on the drive train to hold the additional power.
While we still get some very good parts at reasonable prices at the salvage yards for our dinosaurs, there will not be much of that going on with the new stuff.
Most muscle car guys still can't tune a carb after all these decades and now you expect them to deal with electronics and computers? Dream on. Then there's Chrysler's closed architecture.
If handled wisely, our dinosaurs are an investment, more likely to appreciate than depreciate. What do you think happens to your new R/T's value when throw that blower on it, beat on it a few years and then want to sell it? How much of your money will you get back?
It takes much, much more of our disposable income today to play with these new toys than it did with the old ones. And household budgets matter to most of us. Frankly, far fewer guys have the time or the money to throw at beefing up these newer toys today. Especially given the depreciation involved.
Looking at it like that, investment, why the need for new blocks? If a car is only there for its value, how hard does it get beat on? Enough to go through a block every 20 years? I have a slant 6 Dart that I built to drive the wheels off of, its already been through a 451 B engine. I was going to go to a 496" B motor then I started doing the math, for what a GOOD set of BB heads cost I built a solid 420" 6.1 short block that SHOULD out last a 500" BB and be right on par power wise for my street and race needs. It will also run on pump gas, has a 0 maintenance valvetrain and I would bet gets double the fuel mileage. Those are the reasons I went to the new stuff, efficiency. My car is worth the same with a slant 6 as it is with a BB at the end of the day so "period correct" means nothing to me.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: new dart mopar blocks !
[Re: dakotawilly]
#1772239
03/06/15 05:53 PM
03/06/15 05:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,282 A gulag near you.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,282
A gulag near you.
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Quote:
josh king just posted that the world mopar blocks are back in production and that arrow racing engines is doing the machining.they should be available in the next couple months.thats good news ,but still doesnt address the need for good replacement b/rb and hemi blocks for the average joe racer.....
and the average joe racer is not going to see one because average joe racer is so cheap he squeaks when he walks.
I doubt you will ever see a B/RB/Hemi Mopar block at the same price level as chevy/ford. Sadly it's just not going to happen because it can't be done and make a profit in the amount of time required. Even when the [censored] claimed they could do it for $1500, almost everyone was salivating but guess what, never happened and it was more than likely tooling costs even going overseas ... it's easier to sell thousand or 2 sets of heads that look STOCK ... because that's what average joe racer wants ... for $899, but most guys won't pony up 1500 - 2k for a block when they can run a $400 stock block.
If there was money to be made Dart would have made them 15 yrs ago , when people actually had money ...
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Re: new dart mopar blocks !
[Re: DaveRS23]
#1772240
03/06/15 06:26 PM
03/06/15 06:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,275 Canada
WO23Coronet
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,275
Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
The Gen III is where its at RIGHT NOW, you have drag racers loving them and an entire market of new Mopar gearheads with 2006 and newer hot rods that are putting blowers and turboes on by the 100's. One example, take ANY Charger RT from 68-71 and put it against my wifes 2012 Charger RT and I can promise you will see nothing but tail lights of my wifes car. Things are a changing guys.
While I admire your passion, you have let it run away with you on this one. You simply cannot support your conclusions in the real world.
The new generation of Hemis are a very good design and we are very fortunate to have them. BUT THEY CANNOT NOR WILL NOT REPLACE THE WEDGES AND 2ND GEN HEMIS AS THE "GO-TO" ENGINES FOR MOST MOPAR MUSCLE CAR GUYS!
And there are a ton of reasons for that. Here's a few: For there to be enough sales volume to justify new development and production of pieces for the new Hemi, non-racers will be the bulk of the buyers. Just like it was 40 or 50 years ago. And most street car guys will not be looking for big hard parts like blocks, cams, stoker kits for these new Hemis like they have been and still are for our old engines. And this thread is about lack of blocks for our much more popular old stuff.
Park your new R/T next to a 2nd gen R/T and look which gets the most attention at a car show. Especially from Mopar guys.
After you spend the coin to build up your new Hemi, you will then need to spend that much again on the drive train to hold the additional power.
While we still get some very good parts at reasonable prices at the salvage yards for our dinosaurs, there will not be much of that going on with the new stuff.
Most muscle car guys still can't tune a carb after all these decades and now you expect them to deal with electronics and computers? Dream on. Then there's Chrysler's closed architecture.
If handled wisely, our dinosaurs are an investment, more likely to appreciate than depreciate. What do you think happens to your new R/T's value when throw that blower on it, beat on it a few years and then want to sell it? How much of your money will you get back?
It takes much, much more of our disposable income today to play with these new toys than it did with the old ones. And household budgets matter to most of us. Frankly, far fewer guys have the time or the money to throw at beefing up these newer toys today. Especially given the depreciation involved.
You're missing the point, I don't think anyone is expecting a Gen III to replace the B/RB platform for "classic car" guys, it's a dying market as it is, hell we can't even get a decent aftermarket RB block, BUT the future is definitely the Gen III, young guys (you know, the future of this hobby) don't generally care about a platform that's been out of production for almost 40 yrs. they care about what can be bought cheaply now. It's this investment attitude (your own words) that are killing classics because no one can afford them. BTW, I've always been a BB guy, matter of fact the engine going into my 67 Coronet is a 400 w/a 440 crank, it's the cheapest way for me to get 450 HP (509 cam, 915 heads, M1 tunnel ram, etc), BUT if I had the $ it would be a Gen III, 400+ cfm out of factory heads with no bore shrouding just makes sense
Last edited by WO23Coronet; 03/06/15 07:21 PM.
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Re: new dart mopar blocks !
[Re: dakotawilly]
#1772242
03/06/15 08:16 PM
03/06/15 08:16 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302 Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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I have a cherry 73' 440 block and a just as nice 72' 630 400 block sitting under my bench. Im saving them as an investment....
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: new dart mopar blocks !
[Re: WO23Coronet]
#1772245
03/06/15 10:08 PM
03/06/15 10:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,817 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Master of nothing...
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Master of nothing...
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,817
Benton, IL.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The Gen III is where its at RIGHT NOW, you have drag racers loving them and an entire market of new Mopar gearheads with 2006 and newer hot rods that are putting blowers and turboes on by the 100's. One example, take ANY Charger RT from 68-71 and put it against my wifes 2012 Charger RT and I can promise you will see nothing but tail lights of my wifes car. Things are a changing guys.
While I admire your passion, you have let it run away with you on this one. You simply cannot support your conclusions in the real world.
The new generation of Hemis are a very good design and we are very fortunate to have them. BUT THEY CANNOT NOR WILL NOT REPLACE THE WEDGES AND 2ND GEN HEMIS AS THE "GO-TO" ENGINES FOR MOST MOPAR MUSCLE CAR GUYS!
And there are a ton of reasons for that. Here's a few: For there to be enough sales volume to justify new development and production of pieces for the new Hemi, non-racers will be the bulk of the buyers. Just like it was 40 or 50 years ago. And most street car guys will not be looking for big hard parts like blocks, cams, stoker kits for these new Hemis like they have been and still are for our old engines. And this thread is about lack of blocks for our much more popular old stuff.
Park your new R/T next to a 2nd gen R/T and look which gets the most attention at a car show. Especially from Mopar guys.
After you spend the coin to build up your new Hemi, you will then need to spend that much again on the drive train to hold the additional power.
While we still get some very good parts at reasonable prices at the salvage yards for our dinosaurs, there will not be much of that going on with the new stuff.
Most muscle car guys still can't tune a carb after all these decades and now you expect them to deal with electronics and computers? Dream on. Then there's Chrysler's closed architecture.
If handled wisely, our dinosaurs are an investment, more likely to appreciate than depreciate. What do you think happens to your new R/T's value when throw that blower on it, beat on it a few years and then want to sell it? How much of your money will you get back?
It takes much, much more of our disposable income today to play with these new toys than it did with the old ones. And household budgets matter to most of us. Frankly, far fewer guys have the time or the money to throw at beefing up these newer toys today. Especially given the depreciation involved.
You're missing the point, I don't think anyone is expecting a Gen III to replace the B/RB platform for "classic car" guys, it's a dying market as it is, hell we can't even get a decent aftermarket RB block, BUT the future is definitely the Gen III, young guys (you know, the future of this hobby) don't generally care about a platform that's been out of production for almost 40 yrs. they care about what can be bought cheaply now. It's this investment attitude (your own words) that are killing classics because no one can afford them. BTW, I've always been a BB guy, matter of fact the engine going into my 67 Coronet is a 400 w/a 440 crank, it's the cheapest way for me to get 450 HP (509 cam, 915 heads, M1 tunnel ram, etc), BUT if I had the $ it would be a Gen III, 400+ cfm out of factory heads with no bore shrouding just makes sense
I may be missing your point. But my point was that there has not been enough sales volume with the BB and Hemi blocks of old to warrant production. So it is hard to believe that there is enough sales demand for the new Hemi block production without major inroads into our classic cars as well as today's modern cars.
We are talking about engine blocks here. Not air induction systems or computer controllers. So while I could see an explosion in demand for bolt-on items for the new Hemis, there are fewer and fewer guys (young and old) that are willing to build an engine from scratch. So I would be shocked to see enough demand for aftermarket blocks to be produced.
As to investment value, most of us will want another car/project at some point and will need to recover enough money from our current car in order to move on to the next car/project. At least those of us that are not made of money, anyway. And that will be harder to do when depreciation is a big part of the picture.
A lot of the older guys will not move onto the new Hemis because they will be more expensive to build and because there is a lot that has to be learned. And it will take a certain number of older guys along with the younger guys to generate enough sales volume to justify an aftermarket block source.
Heck, there may be enough guys being syphoned off by the new Hemi, that there is even less demand for the older stuff and thereby helping to put the nails in it's coffin.
It does all come down to dollars and cents.
I am not debating the current or future popularity of the new Hemi vs our old iron. I am just laying out why I do not think there will ever be enough demand for aftermarket block production of the new Hemis. The already small pie can only be sliced into so many pieces.
Master, again and still
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Re: new dart mopar blocks !
[Re: DaveRS23]
#1772246
03/06/15 11:36 PM
03/06/15 11:36 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Not enough sales volume because when you want one they have never been available-Think how many hundreds of sales were LOST for that reason forcing folks to band aid up a stocker and race--so when they are available again ( ha ha) those guys won't toss what they built just to do another with that new block. It has been a joke for over a decade now with zero signs of meaningful improvement in the near future. Tooling exist--tooling does not need to be created again at high cost--That tooling need to be transported to China and hand delivered to a real company that has the CNC equipment and the desire to make a profit by producing a quality product with reasonable price. China makes some crap and lots of it but--China also makes some darn good stuff--The new Sidewinder is produced by a modern company that IMO is second to NONE--IF you examine the alloy quality of the Sidewinder and the alloy quality of the guides and the perfect press fit of the seats and the perfection that is the CNC work you would see that it is World Class Quality Now...the Chevy head they are making and the SBF head as well as new FE Ford head will soon dominate the market--they are all AWESOME units!! The intelligent redesign of the water jackets in the Chevy head is astounding--those guys are smart! It is like Japan after WW2--stuff from there was crap--now it is among the best stuff produced anywhere in the world--China is making that happen even faster--they will be on the moon soon and we will look up and think WTH!! Quality and markets EVOLVE--they are getting better FAST. They HAVE to to keep on keeping on There already exists knock offs of Dart Chevy blocks--on Racejunk for cheap and ..Dart blocks are CHEAP over here already so there is room --it can be done men! I just have to ad for the small block guys I have been selling Mopar parts for over 25 years and over that time the one thing I know is that 90% of Mopar sales is big block so even as a Mopar guy I would not ever take a chance on anything small block Mopar--the market is so small it is unbelievable so you guys are screwed--I would bet my house you will not get another aftermarket block so better gather what is out there already--didn't say I don't love a small block--I do! But any parts dealer anywhere will tell you it is true.
Last edited by crabman173; 03/06/15 11:41 PM.
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Re: new dart mopar blocks !
[Re: DaveRS23]
#1772247
03/07/15 12:34 AM
03/07/15 12:34 AM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,275 Canada
WO23Coronet
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,275
Canada
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I see what you're saying but respectfully disagree, peruse LXForums or one of the many modern Mopar ones, plenty of $$$ builds going on, plenty of money being spent on new HEMIS. Proof is the numerous supercharger and turbocharger kits offered (6-10K), if there wasn't a market they wouldn't be there. If someone came out with a reasonably priced ($2500ish?) Gen III Hemi block with upgrades previously mentioned (4.2"ish bore, maybe a raised deck) they would sell. Like I said earlier I'm going old school because of cost and it'll make what I need,but it will be replaced by a Gen III in the future, probably with forced induction. I'm not against an aftermarket BB again at all, more options the better, I just think we're putting ourselves further behind by not getting a Gen III option.
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Re: new dart mopar blocks !
[Re: WO23Coronet]
#1772248
03/07/15 10:31 AM
03/07/15 10:31 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,817 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Master of nothing...
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Master of nothing...
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,817
Benton, IL.
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To be honest, I hope you're right on this one. Without it, there isn't as much future in this hobby.
Master, again and still
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Re: new dart mopar blocks !
[Re: ]
#1772249
03/07/15 01:33 PM
03/07/15 01:33 PM
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 220
Jerry Kathe
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 220
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Crabman173 is dead on with a zero. The market WILL and always has lend its self to areas of volume, and speaking only in terms Mopar, that is the bracket racer and muscle car combinations that use BB combos. Vehicles that have been built with the BB as the platform have the transmission pattern, motor/mid plate spacing and all the associated peripherals already established. I think it is fabulous the Gen III hemi has come along, but the burden and expense to convert would be impractical for the vast majority. Just like the GM LS platform, it’s a great new market, but in no way has affected the BB GM market. I also agree (sorry this may sting) in thinking it would be ludicrous to develop anything small block….why? There is no replacement for displacement and the current SB Mopar is a very small minority. If you are fortunate enough to throw huge $$ at your project or program….move on with the generic wide BS blocks and call it what you wish. I’m fortunate enough to have the money for the better existing BBM pieces, (ie. Predator) but simply refuse to pay 2X the realistic value. Additionally I have no interest in completely shelving all my current BB Mopar parts in favor of starting all over just to bracket race. But I would defiantly consider continuous upgrades to the components during maintenance intervals. Yet another contribution......
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Re: new dart mopar blocks !
[Re: Jerry Kathe]
#1772250
03/07/15 04:36 PM
03/07/15 04:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,478 Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,478
Kalispell Mt.
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Personally I would love to see a new aftermarket SB or BB block. It does not make that much sense to develop right now financially, it would make about as much sense as it would have to come out with a new flat-head ford V8 block 20 years ago. If someone that already had the tools and know how to do one it would make sense for a stock but much stronger block. Stretched bore centers are going to eliminate tons and tons of buyers because of the expense of replacing EVERYTHING. A SB would make more sense with a 4.25 bore, I know if they were somewhat affordable I would build one for my R/T dakota with a 4.25 crank. Prefer AL but iron would do. In the grand scheme of things though the gen III would make most financial sense if you had to make one from scratch and it would need a bigger bore and more strength, that is the only thing the factory blocks lack in and it is only a problem in the very high end stuff. Of course lots of guys with the newer cars would buy one just to get more displacement for bragging rights
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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