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Re: So...how many predator engines are out there?
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1762442
03/02/15 08:40 PM
03/02/15 08:40 PM
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 220
Jerry Kathe
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 220
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Quote:
Could somebody build it..........sure. Has history shown enough would buy it to make it a viable investment......No. Plus that ship has sailed. Chevy guys are WAY past 4.840 stuff now and 5.0 motors are "bracket" motors these days. Mopar is too far behind and even "hardcore" guys have just gone with the flow and have Chevy "based" power plants. Too little, too late, even if somebody WOULD do it. Plus, some feel the head would look so much like whats available for "other" motors, that "what's the point" and I tend to agree.
I don’t believe everyone in the bracket world is in pursuit of maximum effort builds. Many like myself would be content with retrofitting their old B1, -1, -13 type combos.
Look at the newly introduced trick flow head; I have spent enough years working as an engineer in the manufacturing sector to assure you that a new product line has essentially the same cost when tooling up for production regardless of geometrical variations. Then when you consider that all you are doing is reverse engineering a GM concept onto a std BBM bore space block - the product startup expenses are negligible in difference. Someone obviously thinks the ROI for yet another OEM replacement head is out there (personally I don’t, but it’s not my $$$$).
I clearly understand your view points Monte, but the larger bore spacing blocks basically mean all new components from ground up.
My comment on economics is pointed at the shear raping the Mopar loyalist get today if interested in going to a spread port head design - it should barely cost more than purchasing any of the std 4.84 spread port GM parts…..if any more at all…..certainly not twice as much.
For me its all about $ per HP, An example for those who purchase from engine builders; you can spend 40K plus for a 1200 HP Mopar in a crate or 25K for the GM, so you have to ask yourself "just how loyal am I?"
I truly believe if someone would produce a good spread port symmetrical valve BBM head and price it right, it would dominate the Mopar market just like the -1 and B1 heads did in the early nineties. Typically there is more profit from volume than margin....the margin approach has a very short life line with no follow up sales....or so I was told - lol
My  FWIW
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Re: So...how many predator engines are out there?
[Re: dakotawilly]
#1762444
03/03/15 12:34 AM
03/03/15 12:34 AM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
camastomcat
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
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Quote:
 BINGO....theres a whole lot of truth in that concept.the only reason the predator goodies are that pricey is that nobody has a choice with that type of configuration.and you get what you pay for,the only spread port mopar head available.it doesnt cost any more to produce that head than any comparable gm head.but it costs you way more to buy it just for that reason alone.and maybe a little indy greed thrown in there for good measure.....
I agree as well with the exception of a B1 head top end, pistons, good rockers, pushrods and short block and other parts to finish a build, isn't that much cheaper than the predator deal. And there are a whole lot more B1's than Predators.
If I had it to do over, I would be buying the 5" 4.75X4.75 Sunset Racecraft 674. It's supposed to make 1350 with one carb and get 150-200 passes between rebuilds. $42,500 with aluminum block. Sounds like a deal to me.
I bought predator stuff though, so I'm going to see what I can get out of it.
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Re: So...how many predator engines are out there?
[Re: camastomcat]
#1762445
03/03/15 01:05 AM
03/03/15 01:05 AM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,050
San Jose Ca.
boatracer572
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,050
San Jose Ca.
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Quote:
Quote:
BINGO....theres a whole lot of truth in that concept.the only reason the predator goodies are that pricey is that nobody has a choice with that type of configuration.and you get what you pay for,the only spread port mopar head available.it doesnt cost any more to produce that head than any comparable gm head.but it costs you way more to buy it just for that reason alone.and maybe a little indy greed thrown in there for good measure.....
I agree as well with the exception of a B1 head top end, pistons, good rockers, pushrods and short block and other parts to finish a build, isn't that much cheaper than the predator deal. And there are a whole lot more B1's than Predators.
If I had it to do over, I would be buying the 5" 4.75X4.75 Sunset Racecraft 674. It's supposed to make 1350 with one carb and get 150-200 passes between rebuilds. $42,500 with aluminum block. Sounds like a deal to me.
I bought predator stuff though, so I'm going to see what I can get out of it.
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Re: So...how many predator engines are out there?
[Re: camastomcat]
#1762447
03/03/15 02:11 AM
03/03/15 02:11 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Let me rephrase what I characterized as "bracket racers". Most racers will be happy with their B-1s motors, Indy motors what have you. But when you get up to the BIGGER motors, say 600+ inches, a lot of those guys, like AL, are looking to run Top Dragster or Top Sportsman. Depending on what division you are in, those classes can be REALLY fast. These classes used to be the domain of the 600 inch motor. The class has gotten faster and faster and on the GM side is now the domain of 5.0 and 5.300 bore space motors. The guys who are still running 4.840 stuff, are having to get after their stuff REALLY hard to make the field. So if you are a die hard Mopar guy, you START out behind the eight ball. The BEST Mopar based combo, won't make the steam of the top 4.840 Chevy stuff and many of those guys are borderline now. So sinking a boat load of cash into a Predator or TS deal is a tough pill to swallow, when that may or may NOT get it done. This is the reason many Mopar guys have tossed in the towel and just gone with the flow and who can blame them. As has been covered many times, when you get into 5.0 and larger bore space motors, it is essentially just an aftermarket, alum race motor, so the feasibility of tooling up and making one a Mopar based deal, just doesn't make a lot of sense. After all, if you DID make one, you are going to base the heads off what is out there NOW and that is spreadport GM and Ford style heads, that for all intents and purposes look the same. You are not going to reinvent the wheel, because what is there makes power. So that leaves you with the option of making the block LOOK Moparish..........whats the point?
As for a 600-13 head, on a 4.600 bore, making MORE steam than a Predator head on a 4.530 or 4.560 bore.......well, call me very skeptical. In inline wedge, making equal or more than a splayed/canted deal.......umm, ok. I would feel the big power increase had a little to do with the larger bore, as well as less stroke. I would think the 5" stroke motor wasn't happy
Monte
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Re: So...how many predator engines are out there?
[Re: dakotawilly]
#1762449
03/03/15 02:46 PM
03/03/15 02:46 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
camastomcat
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
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Quote:
word of the day,"moparish" because thats all it would be.and why?it would be an aftermarket motor anyway.its either mopar or not.no in between.if somebody were to design another ground up mountain motor,the only reason to use any existing parts would be cost and availability.one can mix all makes and manufacturers parts if you wish.it would be great if mopar actually built some large c.i. parts .not gonna happen.they went as far as they were ever going to go with the 5.0 99 stuff,and its as rare as hens teeth.having said that,i guess nobody will ever be really happy with whats out there until they decide whats more important.race the class,or watch...... 
Let's not forget, there's always NOS. I would like to run N/A, but if need be NOS will get me where I need to be and then some. At some point, I would like to talk to Monte about it. Monte, when time permits, can you PM a number where to reach you?
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Re: So...how many predator engines are out there?
[Re: camastomcat]
#1762450
03/03/15 05:51 PM
03/03/15 05:51 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Yes, nitrous IS an option......BUT, the problem is that guys bought 600" motors......then they sprayed 600" motors. Then they bought 5.0 stuff and now guys are spraying 5.0 and larger bore space stuff and the trend will only continue.
I work with LOTS of TS and TD guys and yes I have several with 4.840 stuff. A 6.40-6.50 door car with a 4.840 motor is FAST, but you can bet they are getting after it pretty hard. At some races, a 6.80 won't get you in the show and that trend is going to get quicker.
Top Dragster is the same, with the proliferation of big inch motors and blower cars. Same goes here, I have 4.840 customers and one was Number 1 at the last Division II race with a 6.25. That's a 632 Chevy with two stages, but we are getting after it pretty good.
I work with one of the more well known TD/TS engine builders on this side of the country. He sends me all his intakes. They used to be all 4.840 stuff. Lately it is a LOT of 5.0 stuff and done three 5.300 intakes already this year. These guys ain't playin.........LOL!!! Matter of fact, I have 4 intakes here now from smaller motors getting a third kit and one is getting 3rd and 4th, but the latter runs PDRA Top Sportsman and he expects it to take low 4 teens to make the show this year. He has been 4.15 on two pretty decent stages, but last year that was putting him deep in the bottom half
Admittedly, divisions 2&3 and PDRA are pretty fast, but I see that spreading to others as well.
One last thing, most smaller motors BUILT to be N/A motors are not usually nitrous friendly for large amounts. You CAN'T have it both ways and that is a simple fact. If you plan to spray it pretty hard, plan on making SEVERAL changes and then it is NOT going to be a rocket on motor only.
Monte
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Re: So...how many predator engines are out there?
[Re: dvw]
#1762453
03/03/15 08:39 PM
03/03/15 08:39 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Quote:
Why wouldn't a blown BAE provide enough power?
Doug
Plenty of those in T/D. Fast and qualify at the top........go rounds in the "bracket" type class.......not so much.
Monte
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Re: So...how many predator engines are out there?
[Re: camastomcat]
#1762454
03/03/15 08:41 PM
03/03/15 08:41 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Quote:
Monte,
Out west it's not that bad and I was able to get into T/D in the middle of the bottom half at 7.30 with my B1/MC, at a divisional. National events on the other hand, are another story and I would need to be in the 6.70-6.80 range to make the field. I have nitrous pistons in my 572, and the cam is somewhat NOS friendly. The hemi style 604 is not NOS pistons, and the cam is a 114 LC. I would just like to use maybe a 150-200 plate if that would suffice, and not blow anything up. If it wouldn't be enough anyway, I guess it's back to S/C. The 604 or the 572 should be in the 7.0-7.10 range at sea level N/A.
I can PM you cam specifics or whatever else you need.
Let me know if I am out of my element and should just stay in S/C.
Email me all your info and I will look it over........gtxmonte@msn.com
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Re: So...how many predator engines are out there?
[Re: Wv68charger]
#1762458
03/03/15 10:50 PM
03/03/15 10:50 PM
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 515
geezer acres rest home
dakotawilly
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 515
geezer acres rest home
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bad part is to use the spread port on the existing 4.80 bore space blocks would be dropping a brick on your toe.limited by valve size,how much better could a spread port configuration be?and stepping up to a 4.84 means new block.if your going to spend the coin on that,why not go even bigger for relatively same cost.its a tough situation for the mopar faithfull.i believe there is room for another wedge head that would flow in the 500 range. that could be usefull,sort of fill the gap between whats available.and some new blocks too....
SFI 25.5 depends,no leak,even at 213 mph....
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Re: So...how many predator engines are out there?
[Re: hustlin hoosier]
#1762459
03/03/15 11:28 PM
03/03/15 11:28 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Quote:
Monte, what is your opinion of the hemi 99 stuff?
Depends on what you want to do with it. Plus they were designed for the 500" platform. There were some 5.0 Hemi 99 parts for IHRA pro-stock, but those motors didn't run that well after the dimensions were expanded.
What stuff makes N/A or what it a good N/A platform matters little to me, because that is not what I do for a living. So all my observations stem from "will it make a good nitrous motor". So from that standpoint I don't see the point in a Hemi 99
Monte
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Re: So...how many predator engines are out there?
[Re: hustlin hoosier]
#1762460
03/04/15 12:57 AM
03/04/15 12:57 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,638
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,638
Las Vegas
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Just watched one make 1217 on a notoriously stingy dyno yesterday, this was in nitrous trim. Cam and piston. Admittedly not a three kit nitrous deal but one moderately sized fogger.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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