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Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block
[Re: mopar346]
#1762202
02/26/15 12:38 AM
02/26/15 12:38 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,374
fredericksburg,va
cudaman1969
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,374
fredericksburg,va
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Quote:
Quote:
Ok, the number at the end of the casting number i was told meant how many cylinder molds had been replaced as they where used to cast each block, so a 1 would be what the guy was looking for, to be used for a HP block. The best mold the best block, less chance of core shift. No need for x-ray vision.
Not sure that makes sense or maybe I don't understand you. If each replacement mold carrier the sunsequent number why would it matter the 1st molds were the best. I would think the 1 block out of the 4th mold would be better than the 100th block out of the 1st mold. If you thought is correct (again, assuming I understand you) then all HP blocks would be -1 blocks and I don't believe that is the case.
As each block is cast the mold deteriates a little till the mold is "patched up" where ever its needed meaning not as good as the first run. All this is in the old DC manual
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Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block
[Re: cudaman1969]
#1762203
02/26/15 01:12 AM
02/26/15 01:12 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Ok, the number at the end of the casting number i was told meant how many cylinder molds had been replaced as they where used to cast each block, so a 1 would be what the guy was looking for, to be used for a HP block. The best mold the best block, less chance of core shift. No need for x-ray vision.
Not sure that makes sense or maybe I don't understand you. If each replacement mold carrier the sunsequent number why would it matter the 1st molds were the best. I would think the 1 block out of the 4th mold would be better than the 100th block out of the 1st mold. If you thought is correct (again, assuming I understand you) then all HP blocks would be -1 blocks and I don't believe that is the case.
As each block is cast the mold deteriates a little till the mold is "patched up" where ever its needed meaning not as good as the first run. All this is in the old DC manual
I get that it's only logic, don't need a manual to tell me that, but are you saying they changed the -X number for every block they cast? If that is the case way is there not a -25. But again I would think the first few blocks or maybe the first few hundred cast from a mold are the best, again only logical. I guess I am failing to understand the relationship of the dash number to the mold, is it the second block out of the mold or is it the second mold used?
Careful, your character's showing!
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Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block
[Re: cudaman1969]
#1762204
02/26/15 01:41 AM
02/26/15 01:41 AM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
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Quote:
Ok, the number at the end of the casting number i was told meant how many cylinder molds had been replaced as they where used to cast each block, so a 1 would be what the guy was looking for, to be used for a HP block. The best mold the best block, less chance of core shift. No need for x-ray vision.
Except that's not what that number means.
Molds are of sand, they get destroyed each time a block is done being cast. That's why you have "freeze plugs", to get the sand out of the inside of the block.
The number means which form the mold came out of. They used multiple forms to make multiple molds to pour multiple blocks in one batch. The don't make them one at a time. The number is useful for finding out which form made a bad mold, that is all and it is nothing more.
As for using your eye to see core shift, well I think the cylinder walls would be the number one concern for an "HP" block and you cannot use your eyes for that. The cam tunnel is machined and if it's off a bit, so what, it's not like that is as important or as stressed as the cylinder. Lord know it's not like Chrysler worried all that much about how well the blocks were machine. Lifter bores pop to mind.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
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Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block
[Re: Supercuda]
#1762205
02/26/15 12:03 PM
02/26/15 12:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,374
fredericksburg,va
cudaman1969
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,374
fredericksburg,va
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Can't remember more, been awile, but it did'nt go to 25 since there is only 8 cylinders. How many 440 blocks where made( with wood forms to make sand molds) that year?When someone doubts what's said do the research, report back, then all this back and forth is done. Of course the workers could have just stamped the block for HP they needed as they came out of the rack, not looking at numbers. If it ran when testing, use it.
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Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block
[Re: cudaman1969]
#1762206
02/26/15 12:20 PM
02/26/15 12:20 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
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Quote:
Can't remember more, been awile, but it did'nt go to 25 since there is only 8 cylinders. How many 440 blocks where made( with wood forms to make sand molds) that year?When someone doubts what's said do the research, report back, then all this back and forth is done. Of course the workers could have just stamped the block for HP they needed as they came out of the rack, not looking at numbers. If it ran when testing, use it.
The dash number had nothing to do with the cylinder count, think about all the 340-6 blocks people want to think are T/A blocks. I agree, the worker grabbed a block to build that had been though (assuming) some sort of quality control, simple as a useable block and stamped it if it were an HP build.
Careful, your character's showing!
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Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block
[Re: cudaman1969]
#1762207
02/26/15 12:25 PM
02/26/15 12:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
dogdays
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
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The "dash number" is the number of times the cores had been repaired, something like that.
It has been proven over and over that the dash number means NOTHING to the quality of the block. There are -1 blocks that came from the factory with 0.090" thick cylinder walls.
The ONLY way to tell how thick the cylinder walls are is to UT them, and fortunately the UT prices have come down to the point that they are quite common.
IF the dash number hype indeed came from old Direct Connection books, consider the source, the same bonehead or liar who promulgated the myth that '75 and newer blocks have thin cylinder walls.
BACK IN THE DAY We didn't know that UT equipment even existed. So we had to use whatever clues existed to grade blocks. The books from the early '70s pretty much all recommended using the centering of machined holes in cast bosses, like the cam bore, as the way to see if substantial core shift had occurred. This isn't something that was just made up.
When you consider that the raw blocks coming down the machine line faced a series of machines that each did their job by placing the machined hole exactly where it was supposed to go in space, in other words using X-Y-Z coordinates, if the machined hole isn't in the center of a cast boss then there is something wrong with the casting.
Simple as that.
It wasn't like some sleepy machine operator put the hole in the wrong place.
R.
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Re: Whats the diifference between a 440 and HP 440 block
[Re: mopar346]
#1762208
02/26/15 12:32 PM
02/26/15 12:32 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,042
Leucadia, Ca.
vdriver
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,042
Leucadia, Ca.
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This is a copy and paste directly from 440source.com: "While we are on the subject of casting numbers, often there will be what is known as a "tooling revision number" or a "dash number" after the casting number. A 1968 440 block, for instance, might read 2536430-12, or sometimes there will just be a space, such as 2536430 12, or sometimes 253643012. While 2536430 would be the casting number, the 12 would be the tooling revision number, which indicates how many times the tooling (core molds) have been reconditioned back to the proper specifications or modified to include improvements. After so many "pours" the tooling gets worn and needs to be reshaped or reconditioned. So theoretically, higher numbers will be later dates and have any casting improvements incorporated into them. The only problem with this theory is that engines were produced in such volume that many many different sets of tooling were used concurrently to meet the necessary output. So while some may have lasted for quite a while, (in which case you will find later dates with earlier revisions) some got worn quickly or damaged and needed to be revised after a short time. So while in some cases, parts with later numbers may include some improvements the earlier parts may not have, on a practical level, it means nothing as far as the quality of the piece. In other words, don't waste your time looking for an early or late tooling revision number. Blocks, heads, water pump housings and many other cast parts have revision numbers as well. Another thing to keep in mind is that tooling revision numbers have absolutely nothing to do with core shift, which is when the core molds move around as the cast iron is poured. That will vary depending on how much the molds moved in the specific piece (usually engine block) you are talking about, and the only way to tell if there is enough material in the cylinder walls is to sonic check the specific block you are going to use. As you probably learned from our "Everything you've ever wanted to know about engine blocks" page, (and if you haven't read this page yet, you should) there are no thinwall blocks, however we have found core shift to be less prevalent in the later blocks, perhaps due to improvements in casting technology over the two decades the engines were in production." http://www.440source.com/partnumberinfo.htm
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