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Re: Valvetrain geometry......mid lift pushrod measurement
[Re: B3RE]
#1738688
01/27/15 05:39 PM
01/27/15 05:39 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 361
Canada
onig
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 361
Canada
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Correct geometry is important as we all know.
Some people don't know to check it, some will check it and live with it, others will put different rocker arms on and just go with it.
Mind you not on a mopar shaft system, but on a stud mounted rocker system, I had to go through 3 different makes to find one that gave good geometry. For the same engine, different makes and models had different lengths. What really ticked me off was when I called Comp cams and asked for a distance from roller tip to fulcrum, they asked why I wanted it. They gave me a hard time. I finally pushed them to get me a spec on the ultra gold which I had in my hand. They did, but they used a pair of calipers to give me the spec, and were off by .090" from my measurement, how is that for accuracy. When I called Harland Sharp, no problem, looked it up, two seconds later,gave me an exact spec. I bought the HS, not the best looking rocker, but it worked out great.
The geometry at least should be checked, then you can decide what to do, if you think spending the money is worth it or not. Interesting pics on B3RE's website, stuff is all over the place.
Last edited by onig; 01/27/15 05:40 PM.
69 Dart
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Re: Valvetrain geometry......mid lift pushrod measurement
[Re: Stanton]
#1738689
01/27/15 05:44 PM
01/27/15 05:44 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
B3RE
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
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No, you do not have to live with what you get!!! Total nonsense. Rocker geometry has to do with way more than just the rocker arm, and any roller rocker that will fit the head can have correct geometry.
Holy crap, here we go ... !!!!
Stanton,
I believe I talked to you at Carlisle two years ago about this subject, and if I recall, several times you returned an I answered your questions. You got it then, even when one gentleman argued with me until he stomped off in a huff. I can explain the principles behind the way I do things, but some others never explain why they give advice other than they read it in a book somewhere.
Yes, you're correct. But you know that this opens a whole can of worms!
And to address Mr P Body's point about this gentleman trying to run a business and not liking to share, let's not forget that AndyF rarely misses an opportunity to promote and peddle his wares! Will Andy give you his timing cover CNC program? The answer is a simple NO. So why should this gentleman disclose his secrets. He tells you "how" he achieves near perfect geometry, the math is his proprietary information. Just like Andy's CNC program, if you want it - go figure it out for yourself.
Well said, but I do want to mention one thing. Some of the math formulas are mine, and others I learned from some very intelligent people. I'm not going to take credit that is not due me.
Mike Beachel
I didn't write the rules of math nor create the laws of physics, I am just bound by them.
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Re: Valvetrain geometry......mid lift pushrod measurement
[Re: B3RE]
#1738690
01/27/15 05:51 PM
01/27/15 05:51 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 361
Canada
onig
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 361
Canada
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B3RE, take the credit.
We all learn in different forms. Listening, reading, applying, experience, seeing, experimenting ...
You are applying what you learned or were taught.
I give you credit.
69 Dart
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Re: Valvetrain geometry......mid lift pushrod measurement
[Re: Stanton]
#1738692
01/27/15 08:31 PM
01/27/15 08:31 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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No, you do not have to live with what you get!!! Total nonsense. Rocker geometry has to do with way more than just the rocker arm, and any roller rocker that will fit the head can have correct geometry.
Holy crap, here we go ... !!!!
Stanton,
I believe I talked to you at Carlisle two years ago about this subject, and if I recall, several times you returned an I answered your questions. You got it then, even when one gentleman argued with me until he stomped off in a huff. I can explain the principles behind the way I do things, but some others never explain why they give advice other than they read it in a book somewhere.
Yes, you're correct. But you know that this opens a whole can of worms!
And to address Mr P Body's point about this gentleman trying to run a business and not liking to share, let's not forget that AndyF rarely misses an opportunity to promote and peddle his wares! Will Andy give you his timing cover CNC program? The answer is a simple NO. So why should this gentleman disclose his secrets. He tells you "how" he achieves near perfect geometry, the math is his proprietary information. Just like Andy's CNC program, if you want it - go figure it out for yourself.
This is why I posted that... he is trying to run a
business... he isnt into the sharing thing due to
the business.. thats his choice
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Re: Valvetrain geometry......mid lift pushrod measurement
[Re: onig]
#1738693
01/27/15 09:11 PM
01/27/15 09:11 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
B3RE
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
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Thanks Onig, I can say this, I put a lot of effort into it, so I will take credit for that. 
Mike Beachel
I didn't write the rules of math nor create the laws of physics, I am just bound by them.
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Re: Valvetrain geometry......mid lift pushrod measurement
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1738695
01/27/15 09:27 PM
01/27/15 09:27 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
B3RE
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
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[quote Yes, you're correct. But you know that this opens a whole can of worms! And to address Mr P Body's point about this gentleman trying to run a business and not liking to share, let's not forget that AndyF rarely misses an opportunity to promote and peddle his wares! Will Andy give you his timing cover CNC program? The answer is a simple NO. So why should this gentleman disclose his secrets. He tells you "how" he achieves near perfect geometry, the math is his proprietary information. Just like Andy's CNC program, if you want it - go figure it out for yourself.
This is why I posted that... he is trying to run a
business... he isnt into the sharing thing due to
the business.. thats his choice
I don't know, Mike. It sounded like there was more to it than that but it's ok. I will help anyone as much as I can, but I won't go bankrupt to do it. I have a family to take care of and bills to pay just like everyone else. It's not like I'm making a killing correcting geometry either. If you consider the price, and the time it takes to make a custom kit or do custom machining, I would make more money honing blocks all day. I just can't stand when stuff isn't right and it destroys parts. What I don't get is how someone will spend 10 large to build a stroker motor, and then balk at less than $200 to get the valvetrain right. But hey, that is their choice.
Mike Beachel
I didn't write the rules of math nor create the laws of physics, I am just bound by them.
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Re: Valvetrain geometry......mid lift pushrod measurement
[Re: B3RE]
#1738696
01/27/15 10:00 PM
01/27/15 10:00 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,846
MI, usa
dvw
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,846
MI, usa
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It's like everything else. Will wrong geometry run, in most cases yes. In that vein will a motor run with single angle valve job and out of round cylinder bores, sure. The closer to perfect everything is, the better the motor will run. How far off can various specs be? That is the million dollar question. I've run motors both ways, sloppy and worn or as good as I can make it. It all comes down to how much time and money do you want to spend? Some items are worth a lot, some a little. To some it only matters that it stays together and runs. I say learn what is correct, make a decision if you feel that is important and go with it.
Doug
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Re: Valvetrain geometry......mid lift pushrod measurement
[Re: dvw]
#1738698
01/28/15 12:33 AM
01/28/15 12:33 AM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
B3RE
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
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Quote:
It's like everything else. Will wrong geometry run, in most cases yes. In that vein will a motor run with single angle valve job and out of round cylinder bores, sure. The closer to perfect everything is, the better the motor will run. How far off can various specs be? That is the million dollar question. I've run motors both ways, sloppy and worn or as good as I can make it. It all comes down to how much time and money do you want to spend? Some items are worth a lot, some a little. To some it only matters that it stays together and runs. I say learn what is correct, make a decision if you feel that is important and go with it.
Doug
Oh, I've beat on some worn out junk before, Doug. That's why i referred to an expensive stroker to make my point.
Short story: I once put a very high miles junkyard 400 core in my car to run the rest of the season when I cracked a cylinder in the good stroker motor and didn't have a spare. I tore the motor down, honed the worn out cylinders, bought some .030" over 440 rings off Ebay and file fit them, and put it all back together with the lower mileage left over parts from the stroker motor and a cheap set of gaskets. I put some better heads on it and beat it until the used bearings started to rattle. Darn thing clogged my brand new radiator with rusty junk that was in the water jackets.
My point is, I had two hundred dollars in the motor, so I wasn't concerned about destroying high dollar parts. If that had been my good motor, I would certainly have been concerned. I don't think too many people are running that kind of junk, but maybe I'm wrong about that.
Mike Beachel
I didn't write the rules of math nor create the laws of physics, I am just bound by them.
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Re: Valvetrain geometry......mid lift pushrod measurement
[Re: B3RE]
#1738699
01/28/15 01:48 PM
01/28/15 01:48 PM
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 760
Canada
CTD5.9
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 760
Canada
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Quote:
Oh, I've beat on some worn out junk before, Doug. That's why i referred to an expensive stroker to make my point.
Short story: I once put a very high miles junkyard 400 core in my car to run the rest of the season when I cracked a cylinder in the good stroker motor and didn't have a spare. I tore the motor down, honed the worn out cylinders, bought some .030" over 440 rings off Ebay and file fit them, and put it all back together with the lower mileage left over parts from the stroker motor and a cheap set of gaskets. I put some better heads on it and beat it until the used bearings started to rattle. Darn thing clogged my brand new radiator with rusty junk that was in the water jackets.
My point is, I had two hundred dollars in the motor, so I wasn't concerned about destroying high dollar parts. If that had been my good motor, I would certainly have been concerned. I don't think too many people are running that kind of junk, but maybe I'm wrong about that.
I'm pretty sure you just described the engine in my mud bogging truck perfectly, I don't know whether I should be depressed or relieved that I'm not the only one who has done this.
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Re: Valvetrain geometry......mid lift pushrod measurement
[Re: CTD5.9]
#1738700
01/28/15 02:15 PM
01/28/15 02:15 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
B3RE
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
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Don't be depressed. We all do what our wallets, abilities, and time allow us to do.
Mike Beachel
I didn't write the rules of math nor create the laws of physics, I am just bound by them.
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Re: Valvetrain geometry......mid lift pushrod measurement
[Re: B3RE]
#1738702
01/28/15 10:04 PM
01/28/15 10:04 PM
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 235
Gilbert AZ
tsanchez
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 235
Gilbert AZ
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Depends on how serious the engine is and how much money/time you want to spend on it.
For a typical street/strip SB or BB you just have to live with what you get. If you buy a good set of rocker arms then you'll be okay for .550 to .600 type lift.
If you're going to run more than .700 lift then you'll need to spend some time sorting it out. Once you get past .800 lift you'll probably need to switch to Jesel or T&D to get anything that will work.
For really high spring pressure you'll want to use the 2/3 lift rule rather than mid-lift. The 2/3 lift rule minimizes the amount of travel under load but the total scrub pattern is wider than the mid-lift method.
No, you do not have to live with what you get!!! Total nonsense. Rocker geometry has to do with way more than just the rocker arm, and any roller rocker that will fit the head can have correct geometry.
I agree you can get the valve side geometry pretty close by shimming and moving the fulcrum stand, you cannot do anything about the pushrod side unless the rocker is made for the lift and head in use. The last valve train issue I had involved the pushrod side and had to get rockers remade
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