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Does this sound like steering gear problem?
#1704631
11/29/14 08:17 PM
11/29/14 08:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,959
Central Florida
larrymopar360
OP
Stud Muffin
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OP
Stud Muffin
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,959
Central Florida
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I had a spare k frame from 1988 Diplomat Police car, filled with poly bushings. I drove the car before it was parted out, and it drove well. Steered and handled well despite old ball joints and pitman and idler arms. Not even any surface rust, so I decided to swap it into my '80 Aspen Police car. The Aspen drove pretty good too, but the k frame had surface rust and old bushings. So before swapping it in, I put new balljoints, idler arm, pitman arm, and tie rods. So now, everything is new or almost new. Now it doesn't steer well. It also feels like it wanders, but that might be ride height (I am tinkering with that). I notice that in turns the wheel doesn't want to come back to straight position on it's own. It just stays kind of locked in the turn position I stopped turning. It turns back to straight easily enough when I steer, but not on it's own. I checked thoroughly underneath, and nothing is binding. The steering gear sat for several months connected to the k frame before I installed it. Could it go bad just sitting? It's strange that the car drives worse now then it did prior to all the new parts and used but good (when removed) steering gear. Thanks.
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: Does this sound like steering gear problem?
[Re: stumpy]
#1704633
11/29/14 08:39 PM
11/29/14 08:39 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,959
Central Florida
larrymopar360
OP
Stud Muffin
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OP
Stud Muffin
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,959
Central Florida
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Yes, supposedly was aligned by shop that did the install. But, I don't think it's properly aligned because it feels like it pulls slightly left and after a short drive I noticed some cupping of front tires that was not there before (this was before I adjusted ride height up because it was waaaay too low).
Can improper alignment cause wandering and the wheel not to return? I thought improper alignment might cause the cupping but I wasn't sure about the other issues. Btw, shocks are fairly new KYB ride adjusts. And the front tires on the parts car were VERY evenly worn.
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: Does this sound like steering gear problem?
[Re: larrymopar360]
#1704634
11/29/14 11:29 PM
11/29/14 11:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,959
Central Florida
larrymopar360
OP
Stud Muffin
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Stud Muffin
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Posts: 15,959
Central Florida
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I know I am going to have to take it back for re-alignment. It's a good shop, but the last time I had one of my cars aligned there, I had to take it back with tire cupping, and have it re-aligned. Father and son shop, and dad does the alignments, and his eyesight is getting bad  I feel like there is something else going on too though. It'd be nice if an alignment fixed everything, but I don't recall improper alignment ever causing the wheel to fail to return after a turn.
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: Does this sound like steering gear problem?
[Re: larrymopar360]
#1704636
11/29/14 11:49 PM
11/29/14 11:49 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
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I would jack up the front till the wheels are off the ground & with the wheels pointed straight ahead (st wheel should be centered at that point) start it & let it idle & see if the st wheel stays put. turn the wheel all the way to the right and all the way to the left then back to center & see if it stays put. Then count the # of turns lock to lock & see if it takes the same number (1/2) of turns either way. Other than that see what the alignment guy says
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Does this sound like steering gear problem?
[Re: larrymopar360]
#1704637
11/29/14 11:50 PM
11/29/14 11:50 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
mopar346
Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
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Let me tell ya about fat chicks!
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
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Caster issues will cause one not to return to center and cause wandering so that is where I would start. Changing your ride hiegth will change your camber so now that is off too. Cupping is typically shocks, alignment generally causes edge wear. If Pop & Son's don't have a modern alignment machine with print out then I would go somewhere else, not because you cant do it right without one but because they have proven they cant do it right without one. Get the print out.  Good luck!
Careful, your character's showing!
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Re: Does this sound like steering gear problem?
[Re: poorboy]
#1704640
11/30/14 03:11 PM
11/30/14 03:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,255
Columbus, GA
Michael Ecks
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,255
Columbus, GA
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Headers? I know you said you looked underneath and nothing was binding but>... Years back I had a situation where the combination of a bad motor mount and close clearance between the collector and drag link would cause the steering to not return in sharp turns. The bad motor mount allowed the engine to lift up causing just enough contact between the center link and header that it would not straighten out of a sharp turn without a little help on the wheel. Scared the poop out of me a couple times until I found the problem.
That aside, I would bleed the power steering just to make sure nothing is gunked up inside. I can't imagine one going bad just by sitting. Usually "going bad" for steering means leaking seals or excessive play from wear.
Then have it professionally aligned before worrying about it too much. Toe and caster (if I recall) play a large role in controlling wander and pulling the wheels toward center while driving.
"The happiness of your life depends upon the quality of
your thoughts" ~ Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius
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Re: Does this sound like steering gear problem?
[Re: Michael Ecks]
#1704641
11/30/14 05:17 PM
11/30/14 05:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,959
Central Florida
larrymopar360
OP
Stud Muffin
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OP
Stud Muffin
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,959
Central Florida
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Thanks so much to all for the guidance. I am glad to hear that alignment and adjustment of steering gear/hose may be the problem and will be going back to shop soon. I've had lots of alignments done at this father/son shop, but the last two were off. Son made a comment about his dad's eyes the last time. I am going to have to find a new place. That isn't easy to do around here.
No headers on the car. It came with dual exhausts from factory, all the way back to tailpipe, but someone along the way put a Y pipe on it. I plan to switch it back to duals soon. First area I checked when I jacked it was the Y pipe to Idler Arm clearance, and it looks ok, although close.
Shocks are pretty new, but I might replace them with the outer cupping appearing now.
It actually DOES seem to be worse when turning left. Right turns it seems to return to center a little easier. I really haven't driven it more than a few miles because it irritates the crap out of me to drive something "not right", so I am not 100% sure of this.
Hoping shop slows down about this time so he can take me soon and fix it right. He does alot of modification work, so I figure alot of people are concentrating on other things right now. Thanks again to all for always arming me with information! I'd be lost without you.
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: Does this sound like steering gear problem?
[Re: larrymopar360]
#1704642
11/30/14 05:20 PM
11/30/14 05:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,959
Central Florida
larrymopar360
OP
Stud Muffin
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OP
Stud Muffin
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,959
Central Florida
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Robert; I am also going to jack it up again before taking it to shop and try suggestion. Thanks.
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: Does this sound like steering gear problem?
[Re: larrymopar360]
#1704643
11/30/14 05:44 PM
11/30/14 05:44 PM
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 180
3rd rock
kloyiod
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 180
3rd rock
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Quote:
I know I am going to have to take it back for re-alignment. It's a good shop, but the last time I had one of my cars aligned there, I had to take it back with tire cupping, and have it re-aligned. Father and son shop, and dad does the alignments, and his eyesight is getting bad
Boy, is that ever a oxymoronic statement if I ever heard one, No wonder you have problems!
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Re: Does this sound like steering gear problem?
[Re: kloyiod]
#1704644
11/30/14 06:34 PM
11/30/14 06:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,959
Central Florida
larrymopar360
OP
Stud Muffin
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OP
Stud Muffin
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,959
Central Florida
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I have had over 10 old Mopars, and probably had 20 alignments over the years from them, and no problems. It is just the last two. They are good people that I have known for years, and do good work. The father is around 70 years old, and has developed Macular Degeneration. He is starting to struggle with it now. They know, and I am sure it is frustrating for him and sad for the family. The last time it happened (and first time), one of them did the alignment again, at no cost of course, and it's been fine since. I paid for the one just done on the Aspen, so I plan to let him or the son do it again, and I am sure the son will check it this time as he probably did the first time it happened.
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: Does this sound like steering gear problem?
[Re: poorboy]
#1704646
12/01/14 02:04 PM
12/01/14 02:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,959
Central Florida
larrymopar360
OP
Stud Muffin
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OP
Stud Muffin
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,959
Central Florida
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As bad as I feel about it, I am going to have to say something if I go there for another alignment. I am hoping son will say something this time when I go back to have it done right on my Aspen. I feel bad for pop, but I can't keep going back a second time. When possible, I am going to take it somewhere else without them knowing to spare feelings.
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: Does this sound like steering gear problem?
[Re: larrymopar360]
#1704647
12/01/14 02:48 PM
12/01/14 02:48 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Edit: after rereading your 2 or 3rd post I see you didn't do the work yourself? Anyway this is how I do it. It sounds like you have neg caster and a messed up alinement? That will cause all of the problems you mentioned. You may not be able to get any positive caster with stock upper arms and bushings. Did you use offset bushings? I went through the same thing as you. The old guy who did them for me starting only working on Sat. That was fine with me as I always stayed with my car when he did them, so Sat worked for me. He let me watch and help and then I went for the ride with him driving it to see if it was good. That was a big PIA to be honest. And I couldn't make changes to experiment with handling Then he retired all together now and there's not a tech over 30 in that shop now. So years ago spent a whopping 200 bucks and bought my own alinement tool. Fastrax, It works great and is plenty close enough if not right on for our old cars. I have driven my one car over 25K miles now with my backyard alinement. The tire wear is even. It is so rewarding to set it yourself and feel the changes when you go drive it. Then it's even more rewarding when you recheck it and it repeats the same readings, really gives you confidence in the tool and that it is not changing. Got it from summit racing and used 4 pieces of scrap 14 ga steel with grease in between them. That's all you need and a level spot to do it.  4 pieces of 14 ga steel with grease in between them. Yes grease is better than sand or salt, because it stays put and I don't like salt all over my shop floor. I leveled them side to side. One side is shimmed 3/4" and with them sitting right on the floor makes it easy to roll the car on and off during adjustments.  Here's my alinement rack and it works. If you do this kind of work? Then for 200 bucks how can you afford not to own a tool like this? How many alinements have you and I paid for in the past? 
Last edited by Challenger 1; 12/01/14 04:01 PM.
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Re: Does this sound like steering gear problem?
[Re: Challenger 1]
#1704648
12/02/14 01:01 AM
12/02/14 01:01 AM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,959
Central Florida
larrymopar360
OP
Stud Muffin
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OP
Stud Muffin
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,959
Central Florida
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Wow, Challenger 1, that is great! I would LOVE to be able to align my own cars! I would gladly pay that for one if I had room! I have a very narrow single car garage right now, and no storage room. One car in garage, and two outside under California Covers. You're right; nothing more satisfying than doing it yourself and taking the time to do it exactly right. I envy you.  I went back to shop today and talked to son. He said he believes it's probably caster (just as I was told here). He thinks the steering gear is fine because adjustment was never changed. Just swapped it in with the k-frame. I am bringing it back at the end of this week and HE is going to take care of it. He mention that the idler arm came with a plug for the grease fitting so that it would clear the head pipe. You just remove plug, insert fitting when greasing, and replace with plug. I hadn't heard of this before. So we'll see what happens after he goes thru it again. Thanks all.
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: Does this sound like steering gear problem?
[Re: larrymopar360]
#1704649
12/26/14 01:04 PM
12/26/14 01:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,959
Central Florida
larrymopar360
OP
Stud Muffin
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OP
Stud Muffin
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,959
Central Florida
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Well, I got the Aspen back after a second attempt at alignment. It is better than it was for sure, but it feels like it still pulls slightly left and the wheel doesn't return all the way to center after turns (mainly left turns). My old cars have never done this so I know it's not normal. Could it just be all the new suspension and steering parts? Everything is lubed and no binding. At least I can drive the car now and not be annoyed.
I am going to find a new alignment shop. Are there specific questions to ask of prospective shops, such as what type of rack they use? I don't want to just ask "do you know how to align old Mopars" because I will probably get all "yes" answers for the business. Not a huge city here with lots of choices. We do have Tire Kingdoms but I have always shied away from them for anything other than tires.
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: Does this sound like steering gear problem?
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1704651
12/27/14 05:19 PM
12/27/14 05:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,959
Central Florida
larrymopar360
OP
Stud Muffin
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OP
Stud Muffin
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,959
Central Florida
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Do I need to ask what type of alignment rack they have?
I know for example when it comes to tire balancing they say ask for the "roadforce" balancer.
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: Does this sound like steering gear problem?
[Re: larrymopar360]
#1704652
12/27/14 09:31 PM
12/27/14 09:31 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
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What I would do is call/visit some shops and explain how it is acting (up)/what has been done & see if you can find someone that makes you feel comfortable that they have the knowhow to find the problem & honest enough that they wont gouge you (financially) in the process. Keep us posted
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Does this sound like steering gear problem?
[Re: larrymopar360]
#1704654
01/14/15 05:28 PM
01/14/15 05:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,959
Central Florida
larrymopar360
OP
Stud Muffin
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OP
Stud Muffin
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,959
Central Florida
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Ok, got it back from shop after second attempt at alignment, free of charge. MUCH better. Still pulls slightly left, but other than that drives and steers real nice now. I am not going to worry about the slight pull. I am just happy to have it back and driving nice. I swapped out the two front tires from my other old police car just to be sure it wasn't a tire problem.
Last alignment I will get there, as much as I like the family. Still asking around so I will be prepared when I need another alignment. Have a couple of shops that are possibilities. Thanks to all.
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: Does this sound like steering gear problem?
[Re: larrymopar360]
#1704655
01/14/15 05:52 PM
01/14/15 05:52 PM
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,106
Northeast
VincentVega
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,106
Northeast
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As I'm sure you're aware since you have extensive experience, transverse torsion bar setups are always going to wander because the lower control arm is not positively located. It's rubber bushed on both ends of the strut action, unlike a traditional strut rod that's bolted to the arm with a bushing at the other end that gives just enough motion. Aside from that, these K-members like to bend the upper control arm towers even if you look at them funny. Ride height also plays a critical factor. they were known by the police departments to be incredibly temperamental, often losing an alignment a half hour after it was done On the car you are having issues with, make sure it wasn't whacked, or that one side of the car isn't up higher or jacked relating to the other side. Anyway, gusseting the upper control arm towers of the transverse K Frame is recommended and that's exactly what FirmFeel does to theirs. can be a big help. The floating strut problem isn't so easy to deal with, but if everything else is working properly, it is pretty hard to notice the extra "slop". I read an article a while back where someone added front boxing to the transverse K and added redundant B body style strut rods to their setup on a diplomat cop car test mule. the result was an improved experience. but that's extreme, and not really needed. just helps point out the design deficiency as mentioned, not returning to center is either alignment (caster) or fubar steering chuck I have a factory cop car, 81 diplomat (A38) that came with a slant six. odd combination, but with the extra leaf rear springs, firm feel box, and dual swaybars, it handled excellently. But it needed an offset upper control arm pivot bar to get into factory spec alignment. they really did a substandard (for mopar) job during that period here it is here:  Light Cashmere paint. As I understood it, it was a detective's car, not a roller/pursuit vehicle (obviously). Had spent 9mm casings in it when we got it By the way, getting a "rebuilt" steering chuck is often a dubious proposal these days. I hear they just take whatever, do seals, and repaint. i.e. none of the wear items are replaced, which is exactly where the additional slop comes from.
Looking for 1975 through 1978 B body 4 door sedan sheet metal or parts cars - monaco, fury, coronet. Please let me know
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Re: Does this sound like steering gear problem?
[Re: VincentVega]
#1704656
01/14/15 06:12 PM
01/14/15 06:12 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
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Quote:
As I'm sure you're aware since you have extensive experience, transverse torsion bar setups are always going to wander because the lower control arm is not positively located. It's rubber bushed on both ends of the strut action, unlike a traditional strut rod that's bolted to the arm with a bushing at the other end that gives just enough motion.
Aside from that, these K-members like to bend the upper control arm towers even if you look at them funny. Ride height also plays a critical factor. they were known by the police departments to be incredibly temperamental, often losing an alignment a half hour after it was done
On the car you are having issues with, make sure it wasn't whacked, or that one side of the car isn't up higher or jacked relating to the other side.
Anyway, gusseting the upper control arm towers of the transverse K Frame is recommended and that's exactly what FirmFeel does to theirs. can be a big help. The floating strut problem isn't so easy to deal with, but if everything else is working properly, it is pretty hard to notice the extra "slop".
I read an article a while back where someone added front boxing to the transverse K and added redundant B body style strut rods to their setup on a diplomat cop car test mule. the result was an improved experience. but that's extreme, and not really needed. just helps point out the design deficiency
as mentioned, not returning to center is either alignment (caster) or fubar steering chuck
By 88 all these "problems" were long fixed. I had an 87 Diplomat with well over 200k miles and zero wandering or handling issues.
The problem probably stems from a lack of ability to do an alignment, I ran into that a lot with my M. Assuming, of course, there are not maintenance issues (bushings rotted, balljoints worn, etc) Ended up having to find a commercial (ie does big trucks) alignment shop with an oldtimer that knows his business.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
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Re: Does this sound like steering gear problem?
[Re: Supercuda]
#1704658
01/14/15 08:25 PM
01/14/15 08:25 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
As I'm sure you're aware since you have extensive experience, transverse torsion bar setups are always going to wander because the lower control arm is not positively located. It's rubber bushed on both ends of the strut action, unlike a traditional strut rod that's bolted to the arm with a bushing at the other end that gives just enough motion.
Aside from that, these K-members like to bend the upper control arm towers even if you look at them funny. Ride height also plays a critical factor. they were known by the police departments to be incredibly temperamental, often losing an alignment a half hour after it was done
On the car you are having issues with, make sure it wasn't whacked, or that one side of the car isn't up higher or jacked relating to the other side.
Anyway, gusseting the upper control arm towers of the transverse K Frame is recommended and that's exactly what FirmFeel does to theirs. can be a big help. The floating strut problem isn't so easy to deal with, but if everything else is working properly, it is pretty hard to notice the extra "slop".
I read an article a while back where someone added front boxing to the transverse K and added redundant B body style strut rods to their setup on a diplomat cop car test mule. the result was an improved experience. but that's extreme, and not really needed. just helps point out the design deficiency
as mentioned, not returning to center is either alignment (caster) or fubar steering chuck
By 88 all these "problems" were long fixed. I had an 87 Diplomat with well over 200k miles and zero wandering or handling issues.
The problem probably stems from a lack of ability to do an alignment, I ran into that a lot with my M. Assuming, of course, there are not maintenance issues (bushings rotted, balljoints worn, etc) Ended up having to find a commercial (ie does big trucks) alignment shop with an oldtimer that knows his business.
My late father bought his first new car in 86 and it was a 86 fifth avenue.
It wandered all over the road from the get go. It went back to the dealer like 5 times and it never got fixed.
Then my Dad was referred to another shop by the dealer. The owner of the dealership and who sold the car was/is friends with our family. A different front end guy got it much better at another shop.
Then my Dad passed in January of 88 and the car was sold. So I don't know how the front end lasted or was even fixed. Shame, brand new car and have that hassle.
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Re: Does this sound like steering gear problem?
[Re: Challenger 1]
#1704659
01/14/15 08:32 PM
01/14/15 08:32 PM
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,106
Northeast
VincentVega
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,106
Northeast
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I started life taking road trips in a 73 newport 4 door and a 73 polara-custom 2 door hardtop. When we got older, we borrowed grandma's 79 Lebaron 4 door. I will say this - being totally isolated, the car did have a pretty darn good ride. They wanted to capture that big car comfort and I do think it worked that way. but I always preferred the longitudinal torsion bars. especially big fat ones
Looking for 1975 through 1978 B body 4 door sedan sheet metal or parts cars - monaco, fury, coronet. Please let me know
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Re: Does this sound like steering gear problem?
[Re: VincentVega]
#1704660
01/16/15 07:12 AM
01/16/15 07:12 AM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,959
Central Florida
larrymopar360
OP
Stud Muffin
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OP
Stud Muffin
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,959
Central Florida
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I have owned 6 F/M bodies, 2 now, and never had a wandering issue until this one after transplanting the '88 k-frame to the '80 Aspen. Also never had alignment issues, other than the shop not getting it right the first time. After that tires wear fine and car handles fine. I always work to get the ride height adjusted just right prior to alignments. I have FF aluminum k frame isolators in one and poly ones in the other. The Aspen has poly ones. The car is not wandering anymore. Slightly pulling left but when I find an alignment shop that knows how to do old Mopars it'll be taken care of. Aluminum k frame isolators are the answer IMO to the transverse torsion bar complaints of high speed shudder. I've never had a shop tell me they couldn't get it aligned or have to shim one. I'd like to have FF control arms, and may one day when I can afford to, but IMO anyone with transverse T-bars should start with the aluminum isolators.
I've been driving the Aspen now everyday and am very pleased. The second shot at alignment was the trick. Thanks.
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: Does this sound like steering gear problem?
[Re: mopars4ever]
#1704662
01/16/15 09:41 PM
01/16/15 09:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,959
Central Florida
larrymopar360
OP
Stud Muffin
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OP
Stud Muffin
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,959
Central Florida
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They tended to shake up front at high speeds. Not what I'd call a vibration, but a shake that I would call shuddering. Worse than just a vibration. I'm talking Police speeds, like 90 and up kind of speeds. I think the better k frame in '88/'89 may have helped stop that. Mine are steady as can be at high speeds and doing away with the rubber isolators in favor of aluminum on Diplomat and Poly on Aspen helped all the way around.
Last edited by larrymopar360; 01/16/15 09:53 PM.
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: Does this sound like steering gear problem?
[Re: larrymopar360]
#1704663
01/16/15 09:50 PM
01/16/15 09:50 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,959
Central Florida
larrymopar360
OP
Stud Muffin
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OP
Stud Muffin
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,959
Central Florida
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Supercuda speaks the truth. '88 and '89 had the best k frames. My '89 handles great!
Wanting the better '88 K frame in my Aspen is why I did the swap.
I didn't remove any grease fittings to make anything fit on the Aspen. It really is handling great now. One day I want to add a FF box.
Facts are stubborn things.
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