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Re: moly or mildsteel cage? [Re: wildcargo] #169632
12/18/08 09:15 AM
12/18/08 09:15 AM
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St. Louis Mo. USA
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Pleaz Offline OP
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I have an 8 point cage. My understanding is that you cant go under 10.0 .Is that wrong
?

Re: moly or mildsteel cage? [Re: Pleaz] #169633
12/18/08 09:35 AM
12/18/08 09:35 AM
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NJ central
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Scamp408 Offline
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I seem to remember that my moly 6 pt was 60lbs and the mild was 110lbs.In my opinion if your 6 pt mild was installed nice I would leave it and spend the money elsewhere.

Re: moly or mildsteel cage? [Re: Pleaz] #169634
12/18/08 09:59 AM
12/18/08 09:59 AM
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New York
polyspheric Offline
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And still this question is raised.

No, moly is not more rigid than mild steel. The elasticity of all steel alloys is almost identical (Young's modulus: 30 × 10^6 psi).

"I have always heard that moly is twice as light, and twice as strong."
No, moly is not lighter than mild steel, the weight difference is only 1-2% depending on the exact alloy. The reason it's lighter is smaller wall thickness - that's it.
No, moly is not twice as strong, it's about 30% stronger (not stiffer), and that's if properly welded and heat-treated. If the wall thickness is reduced to save weight the strenghs are about equal. You can have more strength with the same weight, the same strength with less weight, or some intermediate.

Re: "they don't want them trying to weld chrome moly with a OX Acetelene torch"
Guess how Reynolds 531 chrome-moly chassis (including Formula 1 back in the day) are built for road racing? That's right - gas brazed with a torch. Read Carroll Smith.

"both these mild steel cages deflected WAY too much for safety"
That's not what did it.


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Re: moly or mildsteel cage? [Re: polyspheric] #169635
12/18/08 10:35 AM
12/18/08 10:35 AM
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Romeo MI
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Quote:

And still this question is raised.

No, moly is not more rigid than mild steel. The elasticity of all steel alloys is almost identical (Young's modulus: 30 × 10^6 psi).

"I have always heard that moly is twice as light, and twice as strong."
No, moly is not lighter than mild steel, the weight difference is only 1-2% depending on the exact alloy. The reason it's lighter is smaller wall thickness - that's it.
No, moly is not twice as strong, it's about 30% stronger (not stiffer), and that's if properly welded and heat-treated. If the wall thickness is reduced to save weight the strenghs are about equal. You can have more strength with the same weight, the same strength with less weight, or some intermediate.

Re: "they don't want them trying to weld chrome moly with a OX Acetelene torch"
Guess how Reynolds 531 chrome-moly chassis (including Formula 1 back in the day) are built for road racing? That's right - gas brazed with a torch. Read Carroll Smith.

"both these mild steel cages deflected WAY too much for safety"
That's not what did it.




And why do you say its not stiffer, it takes a significantly
greater force to bend it on a bender over the
mild steel?

Re: moly or mildsteel cage? [Re: LA360] #169636
12/18/08 10:43 AM
12/18/08 10:43 AM
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Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing Offline
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From your first picture it is a prime example of improper installation.The piller bar is layed back way too far and is attached at the side of the halow bar.It should be attached at the underside of the halow to give any support.Many times an installer will try and follow the windshield and body contours which make the angles less effective for support.NASCAR uses MS cages for impact absorption(give)CM is lighter and harder and has little impact absorption quality.CM is more prone to break rather than bend.And because of it's hardness it will fatigue from twisting and loading in time.This is why prostock,top fuel and other classes constantly update their chassis.If you have ever seen a CM Chassis wrecked you will commonly see tubing breaking not at the welds but in the tube body.And also a good oxy/ecty welder can weld CM just as good as a good tig welder.A furthur note,with all the approved and new welding techniques CM can be mig welded to perfection,NHRA just doesn't allow it.They fear that that fitment would be compromised buy the ease of application of mig welding,where as you can't very well hide gaps with the tig process.Structural design, effectivness,fitment,weld and application are all important part of how you choose material and build a cage or chassis.

Re: moly or mildsteel cage? [Re: Pleaz] #169637
12/18/08 11:07 AM
12/18/08 11:07 AM
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Alexandria, LA
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Blucuda413 Offline
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It's easy to get a MS cage certed to 8.5. Spend the $10 and get a rulebook before you spend any money needlessly. At least 40% of responses to rules on here are in error.

Re: moly or mildsteel cage? [Re: Blucuda413] #169638
12/18/08 12:03 PM
12/18/08 12:03 PM
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Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing Offline
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And 75% of the cars brought into our shop for chassis and cage certification are structually deficient.It cost less to do it right the first time than for us to cut out and redo.

Re: moly or mildsteel cage? [Re: B G Racing] #169639
12/18/08 12:10 PM
12/18/08 12:10 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 167
St. Louis Mo. USA
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Pleaz Offline OP
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Thats exactly what i dont want to do. I want to do it right the first time. Thanks for the input.

Re: moly or mildsteel cage? [Re: B G Racing] #169640
12/18/08 01:41 PM
12/18/08 01:41 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 290
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Cincinnati, Ohio
Another big difference is one car has a funny car cage and one doesn't. The FC adds a lot of strength. On my car the pillar bar hits the side of the halo but another bar triangulates from the front of the halo to the pillar. I agree the car that squashed was poor design.

I don't think a CM roll bar will suffer too much from cracks but a full CM chassis car will usually require crack repair at the end of every season.

Quote:

From your first picture it is a prime example of improper installation.The piller bar is layed back way too far and is attached at the side of the halow bar.It should be attached at the underside of the halow to give any support.Many times an installer will try and follow the windshield and body contours which make the angles less effective for support.NASCAR uses MS cages for impact absorption(give)CM is lighter and harder and has little impact absorption quality.CM is more prone to break rather than bend.And because of it's hardness it will fatigue from twisting and loading in time.This is why prostock,top fuel and other classes constantly update their chassis.If you have ever seen a CM Chassis wrecked you will commonly see tubing breaking not at the welds but in the tube body.And also a good oxy/ecty welder can weld CM just as good as a good tig welder.A furthur note,with all the approved and new welding techniques CM can be mig welded to perfection,NHRA just doesn't allow it.They fear that that fitment would be compromised buy the ease of application of mig welding,where as you can't very well hide gaps with the tig process.Structural design, effectivness,fitment,weld and application are all important part of how you choose material and build a cage or chassis.




1967 Coronet, 1989 Daytona tube chassis. Former cars, 66 Charger, 67 R/T, 69 Coronet, 67 Dart GT. -Banned for life from V8Buick.com-
Re: moly or mildsteel cage? [Re: d7cook] #169641
12/18/08 02:17 PM
12/18/08 02:17 PM
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New Brunswick, Canada
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TrxR Offline
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Now if this vehicle was going to be a street/strip vehicle that would see a fair bit of street duty would you recommend a MS or CM cage?

Thanks

Re: moly or mildsteel cage? [Re: TrxR] #169642
12/18/08 02:21 PM
12/18/08 02:21 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing Offline
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either,if cost is the issue go MS.

Re: moly or mildsteel cage? [Re: B G Racing] #169643
12/18/08 02:27 PM
12/18/08 02:27 PM
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Fl. USA
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Bob,
How significant is the difference in cost?

Re: moly or mildsteel cage? [Re: PS Arrow] #169644
12/18/08 02:31 PM
12/18/08 02:31 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
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Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing Offline
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material is almost 1and 1/2 Xs more than MS and labor is 50% more.

Re: moly or mildsteel cage? [Re: B G Racing] #169645
12/18/08 02:43 PM
12/18/08 02:43 PM
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Fl. USA
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Thanks Bob, that's good info for the budget minded, could also sway the decision one way or the other.

Re: moly or mildsteel cage? [Re: PS Arrow] #169646
12/18/08 06:46 PM
12/18/08 06:46 PM
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Byron, NY
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BG and polyspheric
Great job in properly explaining the "CM/MS Myth's"


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Re: moly or mildsteel cage? [Re: W.I.N. Racing] #169647
12/18/08 06:48 PM
12/18/08 06:48 PM
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Quote:

BG and polyspheric
Great job in properly explaining the "CM/MS Myth's"





Re: moly or mildsteel cage? [Re: Quicktree] #169648
12/18/08 08:12 PM
12/18/08 08:12 PM
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Oakland, MI
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dizuster Offline
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Comparing 1 5/8" x .118" MS vs 1 5/8" x.083" CM...

In that diameter and wall thk. the CM is 29% lighter then the MS.

However in a bending moment situation the CM see's 37% more stress then the MS because of the wall thickness difference.

Yes CM is stronger then MS as a material, but concider when putting a much thinner wall thickness on the CM, it takes away all it's material strengh advantages.

So looking at bending. If you take MS and CM at the sizes listed above. A simple case putting 1000 lbs on a cantilevered 10" beam, the MS would bend .111" while the thinner CM would bend .171"

That's over 50% more bending deflection on the CM!

Remember it's not all about the material strength, the wall thickness of the tube has a lot to do with it...

Re: moly or mildsteel cage? [Re: MR_P_BODY] #169649
12/18/08 08:18 PM
12/18/08 08:18 PM
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Oakland, MI
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[quote}
And why do you say its not stiffer, it takes a significantly
greater force to bend it on a bender over the
mild steel?





Excellent question. Chassis stiffness is a lot different then impact stiffness. During chassis stiffness, the cars chassis/cage don't bend far enough to take a permanent bent shape. The metal is still in it's elastic state, and returns to it's original shape after it's loaded. But a CM car as outlined above uses thinner material, so it automatically looses stiffness. The metal itself if they were both the same thickness would bend elastically in the exact same way.

The advantage to your point of CM, in an extreame case like a crash, the bars often bend past their elastic point. This is where CM is material superior. But like I mentioned above, the wall thickness pretty much negates the material property benifits. But to your point when greatly bending CM (like bending a roll cage), you can feel that extra effort to bend the CM. Specific material has a lot to do with it though. I know my DOM mild steel was an absolute pain in the a... to bend, more so then the CM that I've done...

So with MS you get a heavy rigid chassis when compaired to a CM lighter more flimsy chassis...

Re: moly or mildsteel cage? [Re: dizuster] #169650
12/18/08 08:35 PM
12/18/08 08:35 PM
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North Alabama
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You brought up DOM tubing, problem is, 90% of people who use MS don't use DOM, they use cheap, welded seam MS. A well built DOM cage is as strong as anything else and DOM costs nearly the same as Moly. I personally used DOM on all my MS cages, but when I got to the point that I no longer MIG welded any cage, regardless of material, it made no sense to not use Moly. Makes the car lighter and worth more for resale. I don't care what the cert is, a Moly car will always bring more. I would not put MS in a new car period, but that's just me.

Monte

Re: moly or mildsteel cage? [Re: Monte_Smith] #169651
12/19/08 10:44 AM
12/19/08 10:44 AM
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Eighty Four, PA
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Quote:

You brought up DOM tubing, problem is, 90% of people who use MS don't use DOM, they use cheap, welded seam MS. A well built DOM cage is as strong as anything else and DOM costs nearly the same as Moly. I personally used DOM on all my MS cages, but when I got to the point that I no longer MIG welded any cage, regardless of material, it made no sense to not use Moly. Makes the car lighter and worth more for resale. I don't care what the cert is, a Moly car will always bring more. I would not put MS in a new car period, but that's just me.

Monte


The cost of DOM(drawn on a mandral)MS to Aircraft quality CM is 1&1/2 times cheaper,we buy direct.Rolled and seamed MS is the cheapest tubing available.There are many different quality specs for either,varying the cost.We use DOM-MS and AC-CM for our custom chassis and cage work.We don't push our customer either way,we educate them on the pros and cons for their particular application and cost budget.We let them decide.Our 68 Cuda dbl rail/strut chassis car and our 65 Dodge a-arm car are both MS.We have 5 cars in the shop for up-grades,of the 5 three are MS and 2 are CM.4 of them are certified to 7.50.Go figure?

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